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socalclimber


Sep 26, 2010, 5:02 AM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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Believe me, I get it. That's what is so scary about this.


ClimbClimb


Sep 26, 2010, 9:38 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
Believe me, I get it. That's what is so scary about this.

I think everyone undestood that a worn biner may break at a lower force.

I think for many people it is new infromation that a worn biner may cut a rope. That may be rare, but significantly increases the risk of a worn biner (since in many situations, biner is not the single point of failure anyway, while the rope always is).

New data --> new decisionmaking input for future climbing.

What's the big controversy for you here, besides the usual sport-vs-trad "West Side Story"-style nonsense?


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2010, 6:45 AM
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Re: [iron106] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.

Huh?


iron106


Sep 27, 2010, 6:59 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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Someone else corrected me well enough. That it loads the major axis more, rather than "stronger". I was just pointing out it was the sharp edge rather that the worn biner. Granted the two are not interchangeable.

I have seen a few belay devices get pretty sharp as well, and that is what too look for in worn gear, the sharp edges.


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2010, 7:29 AM
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Re: [iron106] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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Ah, I see. Thx for clarifying.


retr2327


Sep 27, 2010, 8:01 AM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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One nice thing about using steel biners: even SoCal climbers probably wouldn't want to run off with them.


lena_chita
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Sep 27, 2010, 9:00 AM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
Believe me, I get it. That's what is so scary about this.

I think everyone undestood that a worn biner may break at a lower force.

I think for many people it is new infromation that a worn biner may cut a rope. That may be rare, but significantly increases the risk of a worn biner (since in many situations, biner is not the single point of failure anyway, while the rope always is).

New data --> new decisionmaking input for future climbing.

What's the big controversy for you here, besides the usual sport-vs-trad "West Side Story"-style nonsense?

+1

I think most climbers understood that a worn 'biner could DAMAGE the rope -- e.g. cause a core shot. I have heard of such incidences, of course.

And in fact this has happened to one of my ropes. Someone else was climbing on it, took a fall on a fixed 'biner, and the rope got an obvious damage in the spot that was in contact with the 'biner, the core was visibly damaged and the rope was retired, of course.
(The 'biner in question was not visibly grooved or worn, by the way, though on very close inspection it looked like someone had used it as a bolt-end 'biner at some point-- still, we are not talking burrs, we are talking shallow scratches that did not feel at all sharp when running a finger over them.)

A core-damaged rope is bad news, of course, and shouldn't be climbed on, but in the above-mentioned scenario the climber was safely lowered to the ground on that rope.

I was willing to assume that under other circumstances (burred biner, for example) the rope could be damaged even more severely -- the sheath could be completely stripped, and several of the core filaments could be completely severed, for example. I've seen rope damage like that.



But no one I personally know, and myself included, has given much thought to the possibility of the rope severing completely by a carabiner. Severed by sharp rock--yes. But the 'biner, even a grooved one, still appears quite smooth.

So while the grooved 'biner was a reason for concern, the main issue, until this incident, was (at least in my head) the decreased strength of the 'biner. NOT the possibility of the rope completely cutting by the 'biner under a normal fall scenario. And yes, I have clipped a few worn 'biners myself, and climbed above them.

Now that we are aware of this, climbers would be, hopefully, more proactive in replacing the worn biners at an earlier stage of wear.

But it is a decision everyone makes: O.K., I'm halfway up the route, and there is a worn 'biner... or a rattly sling. How badly worn? Trust it, or not? We do not have a manual and calipers that would allow us to measure that wear and make an informed decision based on something solid. It is a gut feeling and experience. Sometimes we do trust it, and sometimes we decide that the damage is above the mental threshold and we should go in direct and replace it, instead of continuing the climb.


A lot of worn 'biners were taken off the overhanging routes in Muir Valley this past Saturday. I hope someone posts the pictures of them. Quite a few were very scary, indeed.


captainstatic


Sep 27, 2010, 11:20 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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The Red River Gorge climbing community does its best to maintain and replace legitimate fixed anchors. That costs money folks. The work at Muir Valley was made possible, in part, by a very generous donation of ClimbTech PermaDraw sets from Hoosier Heights Gym in Bloomington Indiana. Some pictures of other worn gear that has been maintained / replaced @ RRG can be seen at - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/photos.php. The Team Suck site also maintains a page to report bad bolts - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/bolts.php - and to make donations to their bolt rplacement fund - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/donate.php.


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2010, 4:54 PM
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Re: [captainstatic] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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captainstatic wrote:
The Red River Gorge climbing community does its best to maintain and replace legitimate fixed anchors. That costs money folks. The work at Muir Valley was made possible, in part, by a very generous donation of ClimbTech PermaDraw sets from Hoosier Heights Gym in Bloomington Indiana. Some pictures of other worn gear that has been maintained / replaced @ RRG can be seen at - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/photos.php. The Team Suck site also maintains a page to report bad bolts - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/bolts.php - and to make donations to their bolt rplacement fund - http://teamsuckclimbing.com/donate.php.

You cats do an awesome job on wat is likely to be a never-ending task. Hope to see of you at the AF summit at the New this weekend!


dingus


Sep 27, 2010, 5:10 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
I've never climbed in this area, and I don't sport climb all that much, but I have to ask?

WHY THE FUCK ARE SPORT ROUTES FIXED WITH DRAWS?

Rap rings I can understand. But I just get this.

Would someone explain this to me?

It's so you don't have to put them up or take them down. Also, you can bail off the route safely and without sacrificing any gear.

Jay

There is the Bail-Slow option and now the new Red River Rapid Bail.

Never stand in the way of a sport climber's rationalization socalclimber. Its like standing in front of a herd of cows saying, 'no more mooing, ladies!'

DMT


bill413


Sep 27, 2010, 6:51 PM
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Re: [dingus] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
I've never climbed in this area, and I don't sport climb all that much, but I have to ask?

WHY THE FUCK ARE SPORT ROUTES FIXED WITH DRAWS?

Rap rings I can understand. But I just get this.

Would someone explain this to me?

It's so you don't have to put them up or take them down. Also, you can bail off the route safely and without sacrificing any gear.

Jay

There is the Bail-Slow option and now the new Red River Rapid Bail.

Never stand in the way of a sport climber's rationalization socalclimber. Its like standing in front of a herd of cows saying, 'no more mooing, ladies!'

DMT

I'm curious - what are these? I googled "Bail Slow," and found this, but I'm not sure it's what I'd use (well, try to use...if I did I'd probably look like this).


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 28, 2010, 4:34 AM
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Re: [iron106] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.


bill413


Sep 28, 2010, 6:23 AM
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Re: [rrrADAM] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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rrrADAM wrote:
iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.

At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing. However, here is unofficial testing that is specific to this type of accident.


oetkb


Sep 28, 2010, 7:53 AM
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Re: [bill413] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing.

The linked BD article applies only to coldshuts. The failure mode for an ungrooved cold shut is such that as the tension in the rope increases, the rope slides toward the unanchored end of the shut, applying additional leverage, which causes the shut to bend and open, allowing the rope to slide yet farther toward the end, causing the shut to open farther, etc.

The groove in a worn shut traps the rope and doesn't allow the rope to slide, and hence, doesn't allow the additional leverage and bending.

The failure mode of a closed carabiner is different and a groove most likely serves only to lessen the ultimate breaking strength of the carabiner.


bill413


Sep 28, 2010, 8:10 AM
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oetkb wrote:
bill413 wrote:
At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing.

The linked BD article applies only to coldshuts. The failure mode for an ungrooved cold shut is such that as the tension in the rope increases, the rope slides toward the unanchored end of the shut, applying additional leverage, which causes the shut to bend and open, allowing the rope to slide yet farther toward the end, causing the shut to open farther, etc.

The groove in a worn shut traps the rope and doesn't allow the rope to slide, and hence, doesn't allow the additional leverage and bending.

The failure mode of a closed carabiner is different and a groove most likely serves only to lessen the ultimate breaking strength of the carabiner.

True. However, I suspect that some of us extrapolated from the results to carabiners, especially since they, too, are frequently used at anchors.


oetkb


Sep 28, 2010, 8:14 AM
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Re: [bill413] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
True. However, I suspect that some of us extrapolated from the results to carabiners, especially since they, too, are frequently used at anchors.

Indeed. Lest I was unclear, my point was that such extrapolation is probably unjustified.


jt512


Sep 28, 2010, 9:21 AM
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Re: [oetkb] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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oetkb wrote:
The failure mode of a closed carabiner is different and a groove most likely serves only to lessen the ultimate breaking strength of the carabiner.

I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength. Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 28, 2010, 9:41 AM)


dingus


Sep 28, 2010, 9:56 AM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

Ah of course so we should continue to saw through our fixed biners (because people will steal our convenience draws the bastards!), everything is A OK!

DMT


boymeetsrock


Sep 28, 2010, 10:30 AM
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dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

Ah of course so we should continue to saw through our fixed biners (because people will steal our convenience draws the bastards!), everything is A OK!

DMT

[whisper] ppsst. He's not listening to you... Or me. [/whisper]


dingus


Sep 28, 2010, 10:35 AM
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Re: [boymeetsrock] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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I know. Pretty funny isn't he? The Mr Expert-I-Can't-Hear-YOU-Lalalalalalalala!

That boy will justify any bad habit, so long as his socal sport buddies are doing it.

DMT


boymeetsrock


Sep 28, 2010, 10:42 AM
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Re: [dingus] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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What's even more funny is that for a while you were one of his biggest (read 'few') supporters here for his watchdog tendencies...

"There's an old saying in [California]—I know it's in Texas, probably in [California]—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again."


Aw well, we can't all be perfect. He keeps defending stuff like this we may not have to be concerned with him much longer. But what to I know. I'm not a 5.12 sport climber.


dingus


Sep 28, 2010, 12:22 PM
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I will forever associate jt512 with *ploink* sound.

A drop of water = JT CANNOT ABIDE.

DMT


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 28, 2010, 12:25 PM
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Re: [bill413] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.

At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing. However, here is unofficial testing that is specific to this type of accident.
That is misleading, as the groove serves to keep the rope at the biner's/shut's strongest point, even though it has been weakened.

The biner/shut is NOT stronger, as less metal equals less strength for two pieces of identical design. Period.


Example:

Would you rap off of a bush/tree that was 1" in diameter, strongly rooted, with a small groove worn into it at the base that was opposite the direction of force, if the load (rope) was just a few inches above the base/groove? Hell no!

BUT, if the rope was in the groove, keeping it at the base, it would likely still be hella strong.


Point... The base of the tree/bush is akin to the strongest point in the biner, and even though there is a groove, it is still string enough (if the load is applied in the right place), BUT NOT AS STRONG as if there were no groove IF the load were applied outside that groove, it would be WEAKER. And where would the biner fail? At the weakest point, where significant metal loss has weakened it (I.e., the groove)


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 28, 2010, 12:35 PM)


hafilax


Sep 28, 2010, 12:42 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
bill413 wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.

At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing. However, here is unofficial testing that is specific to this type of accident.
That is misleading, as the groove serves to keep the rope at the biner's/shut's strongest point, even though it has been weakened.

The biner/shut is NOT stronger, as less metal equals less strength for two pieces of identical design. Period.


Example:

Would you rap off of a bush/tree that was 1" in diameter, strongly rooted, with a small groove worn into it at the base that was opposite the direction of force, if the load (rope) was just a few inches above the base/groove? Hell no!

BUT, if the rope was in the groove, keeping it at the base, it would likely still be hella strong.


Point... The base of the tree/bush is akin to the strongest point in the biner, and even though there is a groove, it is still string enough, BUT NOT AS STRONG as if there were no groove IF the load were applied outside that groove, it would be WEAKER. And where would the biner fail? At the weakest point, where significant metal loss has weakened it (I.e., the groove)
By that logic, a biner is only as strong as it's cross-loading strength.

It's difficult to generalize and not worth the effort. A worn biner is a worn biner. The rope might stay in the groove better and be fine. It might crossload and fail catastrophically.

The point of this whole thread is that there is a new failure mechanism that most wouldn't be aware of and that is the rare case of a knife edge wearing into biners under very special circumstances. Sport climbers should be aware.

The Squamish Access Society is currently replacing a lot of fixed hardware including draws at our most popular sport climbing area. There is a thread on our message board where people post reports of suspect gear and anchors and as well they can report it to the access society directly. IMO the community chooses where to put fixed gear and how to maintain it. There's not much more to it.


redlude97


Sep 28, 2010, 12:46 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
bill413 wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.

At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing. However, here is unofficial testing that is specific to this type of accident.
That is misleading, as the groove serves to keep the rope at the biner's/shut's strongest point, even though it has been weakened.

The biner/shut is NOT stronger, as less metal equals less strength for two pieces of identical design. Period.


Example:

Would you rap off of a bush/tree that was 1" in diameter, strongly rooted, with a small groove worn into it at the base that was opposite the direction of force, if the load (rope) was just a few inches above the base/groove? Hell no!

BUT, if the rope was in the groove, keeping it at the base, it would likely still be hella strong.


Point... The base of the tree/bush is akin to the strongest point in the biner, and even though there is a groove, it is still string enough (if the load is applied in the right place), BUT NOT AS STRONG as if there were no groove IF the load were applied outside that groove, it would be WEAKER. And where would the biner fail? At the weakest point, where significant metal loss has weakened it (I.e., the groove)
I think everyone gets the argument in semantics from the first page. Stronger was never the correct term to use. Now, the question of whether or not a biner loaded closer to its spine will break at higher loads is not definitively proven. The fact that many manufacturers are starting to incorporate indentions in newer biner designs very similar to those exhibited in rope wear spots provides at least some anecdotal evidence that biner wear to a certain extent shouldn't be a significant concern in terms of the biner breaking when loaded in a normal fall.

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