Forums: Climbing Information: Accident and Incident Analysis:
Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Accident and Incident Analysis

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 28, 2010, 12:56 PM
Post #101 of 134 (4417 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17543

Re: [hafilax] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

hafilax wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
bill413 wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
iron106 wrote:
Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
Huh?????

What leads you to believe this? Seriously, what? Do you have any data, or anything to support this?

In all my years (22, the last 16 at nukes) of performing inspections of materials, and doing failure analysis, I have never, ever heard this... Worn = Less material = Less strength.

At least one basis for the statement that worn biners are stronger is here, based on unofficial testing. However, here is unofficial testing that is specific to this type of accident.
That is misleading, as the groove serves to keep the rope at the biner's/shut's strongest point, even though it has been weakened.

The biner/shut is NOT stronger, as less metal equals less strength for two pieces of identical design. Period.


Example:

Would you rap off of a bush/tree that was 1" in diameter, strongly rooted, with a small groove worn into it at the base that was opposite the direction of force, if the load (rope) was just a few inches above the base/groove? Hell no!

BUT, if the rope was in the groove, keeping it at the base, it would likely still be hella strong.


Point... The base of the tree/bush is akin to the strongest point in the biner, and even though there is a groove, it is still string enough, BUT NOT AS STRONG as if there were no groove IF the load were applied outside that groove, it would be WEAKER. And where would the biner fail? At the weakest point, where significant metal loss has weakened it (I.e., the groove)
By that logic, a biner is only as strong as it's cross-loading strength.

It's difficult to generalize and not worth the effort. A worn biner is a worn biner. The rope might stay in the groove better and be fine. It might crossload and fail catastrophically.

The point of this whole thread is that there is a new failure mechanism that most wouldn't be aware of and that is the rare case of a knife edge wearing into biners under very special circumstances. Sport climbers should be aware.

The Squamish Access Society is currently replacing a lot of fixed hardware including draws at our most popular sport climbing area. There is a thread on our message board where people post reports of suspect gear and anchors and as well they can report it to the access society directly. IMO the community chooses where to put fixed gear and how to maintain it. There's not much more to it.
Understood, my bad... I got distracted by semantics.


Partner j_ung


Sep 29, 2010, 7:13 AM
Post #102 of 134 (4346 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18687

Re: [dingus] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

Ah of course so we should continue to saw through our fixed biners (because people will steal our convenience draws the bastards!), everything is A OK!

DMT

Interesting. I inferred the exact opposite from the statement you quoted.


Ronadon


Oct 5, 2010, 5:12 AM
Post #103 of 134 (4265 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 8, 2010
Posts: 14

Re: [drector] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Ask and you shall receive. I'm not sure if anyone put this up yet but here you go.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/knowledge/qc-lab-dangers-of-rope-worn-carabiners


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 9:03 AM
Post #104 of 134 (4239 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [Ronadon] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Ronadon wrote:
Ask and you shall receive. I'm not sure if anyone put this up yet but here you go.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/knowledge/qc-lab-dangers-of-rope-worn-carabiners

As I stated over there, a possible limitation of this test is that it looks like they created the groove in the biner using a file or some other tool. I'd like to see more tests of biners that have been grooved by natural use, including tests of non-fixed biners with more rounded grooves, in order to get a better a better understanding of the risks that these biners pose.

Jay


hugepedro


Oct 5, 2010, 11:51 AM
Post #105 of 134 (4207 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875

Re: Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Cover story on last month's issue of !DUH!Magazine: "Sharp Edges Can Cut Ropes!"

What, you guys don't have a subscription? Better get one!

The only thing shocking about this story is that climbers don't know this. How have y'all lived this long?


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 12:35 PM
Post #106 of 134 (4188 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3356

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 1:13 PM
Post #107 of 134 (4171 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.

I think I do. Show me otherwise, or shut the fuck up.

Jay


dingus


Oct 5, 2010, 1:17 PM
Post #108 of 134 (4168 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17392

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.

I think I do. Show me otherwise, or shut the fuck up.

Jay

Shut the fuck up.

Just shut the fuck up.

Shutthefuckupshutthefuckupshutthefuckup.

JT Eight Mile.

DMT


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 1:55 PM
Post #109 of 134 (4148 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3356

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.

I think I do. Show me otherwise, or shut the fuck up.

Jay

OK, easy enough.

jt512 wrote:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength. Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

More talk of biner strength.

jt512 wrote:
As I stated over there, a possible limitation of this test is that it looks like they created the groove in the biner using a file or some other tool. I'd like to see more tests of biners that have been grooved by natural use, including tests of non-fixed biners with more rounded grooves, in order to get a better a better understanding of the risks that these biners pose.

Jay

To pretend you aren't helping perpetuate talk of the semantics of biner strength and therefore not "practicing what you preach" is nothing more than obvious denial of facts.

I would expect more, from of all people, you.


redlude97


Oct 5, 2010, 2:19 PM
Post #110 of 134 (4136 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990

Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.

I think I do. Show me otherwise, or shut the fuck up.

Jay

OK, easy enough.

jt512 wrote:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength. Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

More talk of biner strength.

jt512 wrote:
As I stated over there, a possible limitation of this test is that it looks like they created the groove in the biner using a file or some other tool. I'd like to see more tests of biners that have been grooved by natural use, including tests of non-fixed biners with more rounded grooves, in order to get a better a better understanding of the risks that these biners pose.

Jay

To pretend you aren't helping perpetuate talk of the semantics of biner strength and therefore not "practicing what you preach" is nothing more than obvious denial of facts.

I would expect more, from of all people, you.
I don't think you get Jay's actual point. I think everyone was in agreement that the biner would probably hold a higher load before breaking, or at least high enough that it shouldn't be a significant concern. The semantics came about when I along with a few others described this as the biner being "stronger" as opposed to concentrating the load closer to the spine. The biner is not actually "stronger" in a technical sense.


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 2:23 PM
Post #111 of 134 (4132 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Practice what you preach.

I think I do. Show me otherwise, or shut the fuck up.

Jay

OK, easy enough.

jt512 wrote:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength. Of course, BD presents limited data on a single model of carabiner, so we should be careful about drawing hasty conclusions from it or generalizing it to other models of carabiner.

Jay

More talk of biner strength.

jt512 wrote:
As I stated over there, a possible limitation of this test is that it looks like they created the groove in the biner using a file or some other tool. I'd like to see more tests of biners that have been grooved by natural use, including tests of non-fixed biners with more rounded grooves, in order to get a better a better understanding of the risks that these biners pose.

Jay

To pretend you aren't helping perpetuate talk of the semantics of biner strength and therefore not "practicing what you preach" is nothing more than obvious denial of facts.

If you think that that is arguing over semantics, there's not much I can do to help you. At best, I could spend way too much time and effort explaining why it is not, only to have you still not get it.

Edit: You're so lost that you don't even see that the second quote isn't even about biner strength, in any sense of the term.

I think is stupid enough to be considered your first strike.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 5, 2010, 2:36 PM)


hugepedro


Oct 5, 2010, 2:44 PM
Post #112 of 134 (4112 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 3:57 PM
Post #113 of 134 (4087 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3356

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
If you think that that is arguing over semantics, there's not much I can do to help you. At best, I could spend way too much time and effort explaining why it is not, only to have you still not get it.


Jay

Didn't say you were arguing the point. Your talking about it just continues (perpetuates) the conversation about which (semantics) is stronger with posts like this

In reply to:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one.

Which you had asked earlier in the thread to stop.



jt512 wrote:
Edit: You're so lost that you don't even see that the second quote isn't even about biner strength, in any sense of the term.

You got me there. I inferred from this statement below that one "of the risks" (plural) was one of the risks could of been of biner strength.

jt512 wrote:
in order to get a better a better understanding of the risks that these biners pose.



jt512 wrote:
I think is stupid enough to be considered your first strike.

Knock yourself out.


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 4:11 PM
Post #114 of 134 (4078 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If you think that that is arguing over semantics, there's not much I can do to help you. At best, I could spend way too much time and effort explaining why it is not, only to have you still not get it.

Didn't say you were arguing the point.

You accused me of "derail[ing] this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word 'stronger'." I was not making a semantic argument at all; I was trying to raise a substantive point. However, you have chosen to derail the thread by accusing me (falsely) of doing just what you're doing. So, please, just shut the fuck up, unless you actually want to discuss the topic. Or, if you really think this matter warrants further discussion, start a new thread about it. Any further discussion of it here can only be construed as intentionally disrupting the thread.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 5, 2010, 4:13 PM)


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 4:37 PM
Post #115 of 134 (4067 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3356

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength.

Yep, your were just making a point.

That's all I did earlier too, which initiated your self appointed modding powers to curb the thread, which apparently also allows you to exempt yourself from making like points.


Gmburns2000


Oct 5, 2010, 4:45 PM
Post #116 of 134 (4059 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15154

Re: [hugepedro] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off































































Tongue


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 4:49 PM
Post #117 of 134 (4057 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that a moderately grooved carabiner is weaker than an an ungrooved one. Limited information from BD suggests that the point where the groove develops, the bottom of the carabiner's basket, is not where carabiners typically break in any common failure mode. So moderate weakening there may have no effect on the biner's ultimate strength.

Yep, your were just making a point.

That's all I did earlier too, which initiated your self appointed modding powers to curb the thread, which apparently also allows you to exempt yourself from making like points.

I said I was making a substantive point that was germane to the topic of thread. You're just derailing the thread, and it is clear now that you are doing so intentionally.

Strike 2.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 5, 2010, 6:00 PM)


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 6:07 PM
Post #118 of 134 (4031 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3356

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
I said I was making a substantive point that was germane to the topic of thread. You're just derailing the thread, and it is clear now that you are doing so intentionally.

Jay

I, I, I.

Takes 2 to tango, go ahead and mod yourself too.

In reply to:
Strike 2.

Sure hope I can go on with life.
Please reconsider.


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 6:09 PM
Post #119 of 134 (4029 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I said I was making a substantive point that was germane to the topic of thread. You're just derailing the thread, and it is clear now that you are doing so intentionally.

Jay

I, I, I.

Takes 2 to tango, go ahead and mod yourself too.

In reply to:
Strike 2.

Sure hope I can go on with life.
Please reconsider.

Nope.

*plonk* for incorrigible stupidity.


moose_droppings


Oct 5, 2010, 6:52 PM
Post #120 of 134 (4003 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3356

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I said I was making a substantive point that was germane to the topic of thread. You're just derailing the thread, and it is clear now that you are doing so intentionally.

Jay

I, I, I.

Takes 2 to tango, go ahead and mod yourself too.

In reply to:
Strike 2.

Sure hope I can go on with life.
Please reconsider.

Nope.

*plonk* for incorrigible stupidity.


Free at last from the tryanny.

May your security blanket force field forever keep you safe.


hugepedro


Oct 5, 2010, 8:52 PM
Post #121 of 134 (3972 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875

Re: [Gmburns2000] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!


jt512


Oct 5, 2010, 9:19 PM
Post #122 of 134 (3964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21892

Re: [hugepedro] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

hugepedro wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!

I do what I can.


hugepedro


Oct 5, 2010, 9:23 PM
Post #123 of 134 (3961 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!

I do what I can.

Fuck you.


MS1


Oct 6, 2010, 4:36 AM
Post #124 of 134 (3916 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 24, 2009
Posts: 560

Re: [hugepedro] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

hugepedro wrote:
jt512 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!

I do what I can.

Fuck you.

At a time like this, it is well worth revisiting the classics: http://www.youtube.com/...ature=related#t=1m4s


boymeetsrock


Oct 6, 2010, 7:38 AM
Post #125 of 134 (3892 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709

Re: [MS1] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

MS1 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
jt512 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
I can't decide if this site would be more or less interesting without a bunch of pussies whining about Jay all the time. Christ people, what happened to the good old days when climbers used to just tell each other to fuck off and it was all good?

fuck off

jt512 wrote:
So, please, just shut the fuck up


That's what I'm talkin bout!

I do what I can.

Fuck you.

At a time like this, it is well worth revisiting the classics: http://www.youtube.com/...ature=related#t=1m4s

Yes, Cool fuck you too ! ** waves good day**

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook