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jason
Oct 8, 2010, 9:06 AM
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When we learn an instrument such as the guitar, or in my case the mandolin and bass, we work through a phase of teaching our hands the muscle memory of a specific chord by doing correctly, but slowly, and gradually building up speed so long as the precision of the movement remains intact.
So how does this relate to climbing? Over the years I've developed a respectable ammount of crimp strength, but when doing hard, powerful dead points to bad crimps, I often either fail, or end up in the open crimp position. This feels a little more desperate (and dangerous) than immediately latching the hold in the closed crimp position.
I'm considering focusing a good deal of my time on simply latching holds accurately and quickly in a controlled setting where I won't be pulling a move off of them. I'm hoping this will isolate, and refine the technique and muscle memory, while crimp strength alone can still be trained on a hang board.
Has anyone tried this? I'm an experienced climber, but feel this is one of my weaknesses that I would like to work on. I feel like just climbing has trained me to hit the hold then adjust, but assuming I'm in control, and not just flailing to the next hold, and stress loading my fingers, I would like to streamline my movements.
Before someone responds to train open hand and use open hand... Imagine a big move to a bad crimp. You could stick it open, but the next move involves a low lock off from that hold (crimp) so it would be best just to hit it right the first time and not waste time and energy adjusting.
BTW:
I'm sure the Self-Coached climber has something sorta relative to this, but as I've said before, I can't get it here. I even talked to the foreign book store here, and they can't even order it.
(This post was edited by jason on Oct 8, 2010, 9:13 AM)
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ghisino
Oct 8, 2010, 1:58 PM
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don't want to be negative, but hitting dynamically in an already closed crimp position sounds like a nice recipe for injury, at least if you think about really powerful situations (relative to what your fingers are used to)
adjusting from open crimp to closed crimp does not take massive amounts of energy, and it is something a few elite climbers do train (eg look at patxi clip in "Progression).
This training is said to be both dramatically effective and to have a really high pulley injury potential.
however, your point might be valid for some very specific moves. I'm thinking more about thin/tecnical face climbing situations involving more precision/accuracy than power...
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DouglasHunter
Oct 8, 2010, 2:02 PM
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"I'm sure the Self-Coached climber has something sorta relative to this, but as I've said before, I can't get it here. I even talked to the foreign book store here, and they can't even order it. "
I hear that one of the authors posts on this forum now and then.
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brijoel
Oct 8, 2010, 2:12 PM
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Is your question, "Is it worth it to spend time practicing hitting a hold immediately putting your hand in crimp position?"
There's nothing "more dangerous" about hitting the hold open handed. It's much better to load the fingers that way and convert. And, if you're flailing about during or after sticking the hold, it is not the crimp "technique" that's the problem - it's the rest of your climbing technique that's getting you to that hold, or the amount of finger strength you have to steady yourself once you hit it.
This might just be me, but I don't think I ever hit something when dead pointing to a crimp without at least some adjustment into a full crimp position post loading the fingers open/open crimp. If you're flailing on powerful static movement, that's most certainly an "everything else" issue.
I suppose my question in response to your question is, are you positive the rest of your climbing technique is so clean that 1-2 seconds to convert to a crimp is the problem?
(This post was edited by brijoel on Oct 8, 2010, 2:16 PM)
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younggun
Oct 8, 2010, 2:47 PM
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Staying open handed unless you absolutely have to crimp, might strengthen your hand and forearms better then crimping. Also, crimping has a much higher risk of injury. I have always thought crimping is not efficient and staying open makes it easier to stay under the hold further making the hold better.
read this:
http://www.athletikspesifik.com/node/281
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ceebo
Oct 8, 2010, 2:53 PM
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If you hit everything with full crimp your going to lose up to 2 inches of reach. Mostly when I'm popping for a crimp hold the rest of my body is in a really difficult position. Having to then gain an extra 2 inches out of the 3 points i have on the wall will put those points under allot more strain.
Their is also the point that you may be using a sloping type crimp with your securing hand, so you may not physically have an extra 2 inch to go be for that hand loses friction and results in a shock load on your other. Or more likely a failing in the dynamic move.
If you always lose 2 inches of reach by climbing like that, it means you have less manipulation over your centre of gravity. You will be forced most times to tip yourself over the line of balance in order to make the reach.
If it is for moves that are within comfort reach then its likely you are able to get in a balanced position so that regardless of what way you go for the hold, it will have little weight on it until you choose to put it their for the next move. That process is so fast that within 0.5 seconds or less you have went from open to crimp and then put weight on it.
theirs also a time issue as well. when making dynamic moves every little millisecond counts, if you have to reach further to get straight into the full crimp it means you have to be in the dynamic movement longer. You cant defy gravity, their may not be enough time to get that extra reach to a full crimp without a NEED to go open first just to make contact.
Thats my take on it atleast.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Oct 8, 2010, 2:55 PM)
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naitch
Oct 8, 2010, 3:12 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote: "I'm sure the Self-Coached climber has something sorta relative to this, but as I've said before, I can't get it here. I even talked to the foreign book store here, and they can't even order it. " I hear that one of the authors posts on this forum now and then.
Funny Doug! So are you going to weigh in on the OP's question?
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jason
Oct 8, 2010, 3:38 PM
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ghisino wrote: however, your point might be valid for some very specific moves. I'm thinking more about thin/tecnical face climbing situations involving more precision/accuracy than power...
This is actually a move that I've run into a number of times, and most recently on a problem I'm working now. To clear things up, it's not a power problem at all. Yes, it's powerful, but that's not what's shooting me down (on this one).
On a 10 degree overhang, I'm going from a bad right heel, and bad right crimp to a two finger crimp at the full extent of my reach (before bumping). This crimp I can easily reposition on. The problem is that after that move, I'm bumping quite a bit further to a three finger microcrimp. When you hit it, it's actually the main point holding you because your left crimp becomes uselessly low. Repositioning isn't really possible. If the hold had any substance to it at all, I could just crank down and close the crimp. But trying this causes you to loose the little friction you have. The next move requires you to crimp in order to get high enough on the hold. Open hand won't work, you'll just have to take my word for it. Again it's not a problem of power, but a problem of position.
The only person I've seen who could actually execute the move had to do so by sticking it in the 3 finger closed crimp position with perfect accuracy. This is just one example, I've run into similar moves before, and would really like to work on my accuracy and technique.
As I said in the original post I'm not looking to train power in this case, but precision. If anyone knows the methods that the "elite" have used, I would be interested in hearing about it. I may not be elite, but I would like to finish my project.
(This post was edited by jason on Oct 8, 2010, 4:06 PM)
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ceebo
Oct 8, 2010, 7:03 PM
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I flicked through the scc but could not find anything close to what you ask. I don't recall reading anything online about it either, i have read quite allot too 
I have done a few moves that felt very unique and spacific to said route, much to complex to train for. Would probably be a case of just trying the move over and over until you finally nail it on the day. Its probably not worth diverting training time into such a move that your unlikely to regularly come across.
Even if you can learn and use that technique regularly this link is worth a read. Its not that old so i assume his advice is accurate
http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/...or-not-to-crimp.html
(This post was edited by ceebo on Oct 8, 2010, 7:07 PM)
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bustloose
Oct 8, 2010, 7:28 PM
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not counting the fact that you should only close up on a crimp if you absolutely need to, and also not counting the fact that you should train your open hand strength so that you don't need to crimp down hard as often, then, wait a minute...
i'm sorry, is the question still relevant at this point?
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DouglasHunter
Oct 8, 2010, 8:43 PM
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naitch wrote: Funny Doug! So are you going to weigh in on the OP's question?
Well, I don't know. I conceptualize the issue differently.
In my experience these sort of problems are not strength issues, they are movement timing issues. In the many video analysis I have done of dynamic moves I find that there are two essential elements
1) The direction the center of gravity is moving at the moment the hand makes contact with the hold.
2) Movement of the COG immediately after the hand reaches the hold.
The perception that one is having strength issues relating to this kind of move seems to arise when the hand consistently gets to the hold "late". That is, the COG has started to move down and or away from the rock just prior to the hand attaining the hold in question. In some moves there can also be so much movement immediately after the hold is attained that this movement literally yanks the climber off the hold. Many years ago I saw a perfect example of this on the route Body Count in AF. The climber was having difficulty with the crux move which is an off-set balance slap to a very small crimper that needs to be hit just right. The climber was throwing his hips into the wall, but the video suggested that he was being too dynamic, throwing the hips too hard, so after the hand reached the next hold his hips were falling away from the wall and pulling him off the hold. The climber was able to refine how dynamic he was being with the move, adjust the timing, and the body tension and then was able to do the move consistently.
Keep in mind that everything I am talking about can't been seen with the unaided eye, it takes going through video frame by frame to see these timing relationships at work.
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naitch
Oct 8, 2010, 9:14 PM
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Thanks! I'm not the original poster but your insights are helpful (as is your book). Another good reminder that there are many factors involved and climbing can be very subtle.
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giggly
Oct 8, 2010, 10:34 PM
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Shoot yourself in the foot then your hand wont hurt so much.
Mabye that could be your beta for that climb
Catch the hold in an open position.
Then adjust accordingly.
After using the open hand crimp on my trainning board I rarely use a closed crimp any more. Over gripping in a crimp position causes arthrites and knuckel popping. Devoleping crimp power thaes years to devolope. Even If you have the muscle to pull on it your joints may not have the dextarity to cope with bearing the weight.
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seatbeltpants
Oct 20, 2010, 1:51 AM
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jason wrote: I'm sure the Self-Coached climber has something sorta relative to this, but as I've said before, I can't get it here. I even talked to the foreign book store here, and they can't even order it.
amazon don't deliver to korea?
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curt
Oct 20, 2010, 5:41 AM
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giggly wrote: Shoot yourself in the foot then your hand wont hurt so much. Mabye that could be your beta for that climb Catch the hold in an open position. Then adjust accordingly. After using the open hand crimp on my trainning board I rarely use a closed crimp any more. Over gripping in a crimp position causes arthrites and knuckel popping. Devoleping crimp power thaes years to devolope. Even If you have the muscle to pull on it your joints may not have the dextarity to cope with bearing the weight.
Even if you rephrased your opinion in English, you'd still be wrong.
Curt
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wiki
Oct 20, 2010, 8:06 AM
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Ignoring the open/closed crimp/self-coached climber argument... (though that book is awesome!)
Why don't you practise as you do on your guitar...
Start off slowly and accurately and build up power.
E.g. Start static, build up to small deadpoints then big deadpoints and then move onto dynos.
Master each move thoroughly before moving onto the next step.
You answered your own question really.
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fresh
Oct 20, 2010, 1:58 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote: naitch wrote: Funny Doug! So are you going to weigh in on the OP's question? Well, I don't know. I conceptualize the issue differently. In my experience these sort of problems are not strength issues, they are movement timing issues. In the many video analysis I have done of dynamic moves I find that there are two essential elements 1) The direction the center of gravity is moving at the moment the hand makes contact with the hold. 2) Movement of the COG immediately after the hand reaches the hold. The perception that one is having strength issues relating to this kind of move seems to arise when the hand consistently gets to the hold "late". That is, the COG has started to move down and or away from the rock just prior to the hand attaining the hold in question. In some moves there can also be so much movement immediately after the hold is attained that this movement literally yanks the climber off the hold. Many years ago I saw a perfect example of this on the route Body Count in AF. The climber was having difficulty with the crux move which is an off-set balance slap to a very small crimper that needs to be hit just right. The climber was throwing his hips into the wall, but the video suggested that he was being too dynamic, throwing the hips too hard, so after the hand reached the next hold his hips were falling away from the wall and pulling him off the hold. The climber was able to refine how dynamic he was being with the move, adjust the timing, and the body tension and then was able to do the move consistently. Keep in mind that everything I am talking about can't been seen with the unaided eye, it takes going through video frame by frame to see these timing relationships at work.
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spikeddem
Oct 20, 2010, 2:07 PM
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fresh wrote: DouglasHunter wrote: naitch wrote: Funny Doug! So are you going to weigh in on the OP's question? Well, I don't know. I conceptualize the issue differently. In my experience these sort of problems are not strength issues, they are movement timing issues. In the many video analysis I have done of dynamic moves I find that there are two essential elements 1) The direction the center of gravity is moving at the moment the hand makes contact with the hold. 2) Movement of the COG immediately after the hand reaches the hold. The perception that one is having strength issues relating to this kind of move seems to arise when the hand consistently gets to the hold "late". That is, the COG has started to move down and or away from the rock just prior to the hand attaining the hold in question. In some moves there can also be so much movement immediately after the hold is attained that this movement literally yanks the climber off the hold. Many years ago I saw a perfect example of this on the route Body Count in AF. The climber was having difficulty with the crux move which is an off-set balance slap to a very small crimper that needs to be hit just right. The climber was throwing his hips into the wall, but the video suggested that he was being too dynamic, throwing the hips too hard, so after the hand reached the next hold his hips were falling away from the wall and pulling him off the hold. The climber was able to refine how dynamic he was being with the move, adjust the timing, and the body tension and then was able to do the move consistently. Keep in mind that everything I am talking about can't been seen with the unaided eye, it takes going through video frame by frame to see these timing relationships at work. great post. so when you go for a move, you want to move your COG towards where it will be once it comes to rest after sticking the hold, not towards where it is at the moment you stick it?
Seems to me it depends on the move. Adjusting the COG to where it will end up BEFORE doing the move can make the actual movement more difficult (although sticking the hold will be easier). Depending on the difficulty of moving the COG first vs the difficulty of sticking the move without a COG adjustment pre-move, the entire sequence may or may not be more doable.
(This post was edited by spikeddem on Oct 20, 2010, 6:35 PM)
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jindap
Dec 21, 2010, 5:17 PM
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younggun wrote: Staying open handed unless you absolutely have to crimp, might strengthen your hand and forearms better then crimping. Also, crimping has a much higher risk of injury. I have always thought crimping is not efficient and staying open makes it easier to stay under the hold further making the hold better. read this: http://www.athletikspesifik.com/node/281
gonna have to agree with younggun. myself being a new climber, im admitting that i do not have a great wealth of knowledge of rock climbing technique. however i am fortunate enough to be surrounded by a large community of very good climbers (v9 and up) and i hear from them over and over "open grip, then crimp". like younggun said, crimping is solid but overloads your tendons and heightens your risk of injury. it's simply not worth the weeks you'd spend away from the rock if injured over a couple seconds of readjusting your hand position.
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