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hyhuu


Oct 21, 2010, 6:44 AM
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Clipping the rope
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Another question from a noobie here:

Reading through various materials/sources/books etc., it said that one should only clip the rope in the piece after removing the bottom aider w/o explaining why. What are the reasons beside it being less of a cluster to deal with? Many thanks.


csproul


Oct 21, 2010, 7:21 AM
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Re: [hyhuu] Clipping the rope [In reply to]
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Avoiding tangles is the main reason I have noticed. Also, if you clip it to the piece you are standing on, it increases the length of the fall should that piece pop.


USnavy


Oct 21, 2010, 8:54 AM
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Because your already attached to the bottom piece by standing on the aider, there is no reason to clip it. If you clip it and it blows you are just increasing the length of your fall.


hyhuu


Oct 21, 2010, 10:30 AM
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But if you are standing in the aider, the piece is more or less at your waist line so clipping the rope in or not would not really change the length of the fall. It's not like you have to pull the rope up to clip. Usually it's a draw clipping below you.


ptlong2


Oct 21, 2010, 11:38 AM
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Re: [hyhuu] Clipping the rope [In reply to]
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What books or other sources? This isn't a universal rule. Wouldn't you want to be clipped into the previous piece before committing to the next one?

Long and Middendorf say to wait until your waist is even with the piece, but they add "usually".

The description from FISH says to clip in when you're still standing on the previous piece.


hyhuu


Oct 21, 2010, 12:48 PM
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Freedom of the Hill and How to Big Wall by Chris McNamara. I do realize that there are very few universal rules in climbing. It seems to me that if the rope is clipped, the fall would be shorter then somehow upper piece pops when you are removing the lower aider. But what do I know. I only play a little bit with aiding before.

ptlong2 wrote:
What books or other sources? This isn't a universal rule. Wouldn't you want to be clipped into the previous piece before committing to the next one?

Long and Middendorf say to wait until your waist is even with the piece, but they add "usually".

The description from FISH says to clip in when you're still standing on the previous piece.


TarHeelEMT


Oct 21, 2010, 12:58 PM
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Re: [hyhuu] Clipping the rope [In reply to]
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It depends. If my last piece was a shitbox over a huge runout, and the next piece is bomber, I'll go ahead and risk the extra three feet of fall for the promise of security. Otherwise I'll wait.


ptlong2


Oct 21, 2010, 1:47 PM
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You must have misread Freedom of the Hills or maybe you have an old edition. Their sequence is to clip the new piece while standing on it.

Chris Mac probably isn't as worried. One way to look at it is that if you've adequately tested the new piece then it's not likely to fail under bodyweight. And it is less cluster to clip after you've cleared all the crap away, so maybe you'll move faster.


(This post was edited by ptlong2 on Oct 21, 2010, 2:24 PM)


whipper


Oct 21, 2010, 6:22 PM
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Re: [hyhuu] Clipping the rope [In reply to]
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I deff dont clip the piece I am standing on, there is no point, its not like you are going to fall off of it, and if it blows, then you did nothing but just increase your fall. Clip it while still low in the aiders after moving on to the next piece.
You are right, tough, about no "rules" there might be times, such as right over a ledge, that it would be prudent. But a big thing about improving your aid climbing is to not be scared, clipping the piece you are on just means you are trying to falsely alleviate the fear, there is usually no real benefit.


tomtom


Oct 22, 2010, 3:06 PM
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I would say as long as you're not pulling up any additional rope, it doesn't matter if when you clip the piece you are standing on. I make sure the rope is clipped before seriously testing the new piece.


Partner xtrmecat


Oct 22, 2010, 3:21 PM
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Re: [whipper] Clipping the rope [In reply to]
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My typical sequence goes like this.

Place piece, daisy to it and test lightly, put a foot /aider on it and bounce. I know what the piece is good for by now, so I either commit to it or change the placement. Once on a piece(commit to it), I remove the other aider from the lower piece, which leaves a daisy(adj) still on the piece, so once the aider is gone there is room to reach below my knee and clip the rope and remove the daisy. This leaves the pro secured by something at all times, but in the event of a ripped piece I just got on, leaves a daisy fall potential.

This is why I clip the rope and remove the daisy in one motion. I then proceed to move up on the new piece, only after the work down below is done, I have no intention of returning. If I am backcleaning, and I do it a lot, skip the clip, clean the piece with the daisy still attached, and rerack. Look at your next placement and then prestage your daisy on the next piece.

If you find yourself clipping at your waist, then your technique needs some work. Get higher in your aiders, time is everything in the game. Top step, or sub top every time.

If I am on a hook, shitty something or another and know it, and the next piece is bomber, I still wouldn't consider adding to the fall if I was over a dangerous fall, ledge, or what not. I still wouldn't clip the top piece until it is ready to go beneath me. After all, I am getting on a bomber piece right?

To shorten this and answer the question of the OP, as asked, to stay in the sequence man. Get a rhythm and don't look back. As with any "should" or "rule", I am sure there are exceptions. I just don't remember encountering any.

Burly Bob


hafilax


Oct 22, 2010, 4:00 PM
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whipper wrote:
I deff dont clip the piece I am standing on, there is no point, its not like you are going to fall off of it, and if it blows, then you did nothing but just increase your fall. Clip it while still low in the aiders after moving on to the next piece.
You are right, tough, about no "rules" there might be times, such as right over a ledge, that it would be prudent. But a big thing about improving your aid climbing is to not be scared, clipping the piece you are on just means you are trying to falsely alleviate the fear, there is usually no real benefit.
Would it make sense to clip ahead to the next piece if you are sure that it is solid especially if the one you're on is marginal?


Partner xtrmecat


Oct 24, 2010, 1:11 PM
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hafilax wrote:
whipper wrote:
I deff dont clip the piece I am standing on, there is no point, its not like you are going to fall off of it, and if it blows, then you did nothing but just increase your fall. Clip it while still low in the aiders after moving on to the next piece.
You are right, tough, about no "rules" there might be times, such as right over a ledge, that it would be prudent. But a big thing about improving your aid climbing is to not be scared, clipping the piece you are on just means you are trying to falsely alleviate the fear, there is usually no real benefit.
Would it make sense to clip ahead to the next piece if you are sure that it is solid especially if the one you're on is marginal?

No, you gain nothing other than cluster. It is aid. You only fall if the piece rips, clipping it does nothing.

Burly Bob


whipper


Oct 24, 2010, 3:34 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Clipping the rope [In reply to]
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xtrmecat wrote:
hafilax wrote:
whipper wrote:
I deff dont clip the piece I am standing on, there is no point, its not like you are going to fall off of it, and if it blows, then you did nothing but just increase your fall. Clip it while still low in the aiders after moving on to the next piece.
You are right, tough, about no "rules" there might be times, such as right over a ledge, that it would be prudent. But a big thing about improving your aid climbing is to not be scared, clipping the piece you are on just means you are trying to falsely alleviate the fear, there is usually no real benefit.
Would it make sense to clip ahead to the next piece if you are sure that it is solid especially if the one you're on is marginal?

No, you gain nothing other than cluster. It is aid. You only fall if the piece rips, clipping it does nothing.

Burly Bob

If you are on a hook, and the next piece is a bolt, sure, clip that bolt with the rope as soon as you can, but mostly Burly Bob is right.


malcolm777b


Oct 24, 2010, 5:17 PM
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hyhuu wrote:
Another question from a noobie here:

Reading through various materials/sources/books etc., it said that one should only clip the rope in the piece after removing the bottom aider w/o explaining why. What are the reasons beside it being less of a cluster to deal with? Many thanks.

IF you fell after clipping the piece you are standing on (and that means slipping and falling out of your aiders), you're going to take a daisy fall regardless of whether you clipped the rope to your current piece or not. So, one of two things happen: 1) Daisy fall rips piece and you fall to your next good piece (longer fall from the extra rope out from clipping the current piece), 2) Daisy arrests fall and does not rip piece (clipping current piece didn't do anything). Since there is no advantage to clip the piece you are currently standing on, why deal with the cluster by adding the rope and additional biners/draws?


ptlong2


Oct 24, 2010, 6:13 PM
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whipper wrote:
xtrmecat wrote:
hafilax wrote:
Would it make sense to clip ahead to the next piece if you are sure that it is solid especially if the one you're on is marginal?

No, you gain nothing other than cluster. It is aid. You only fall if the piece rips, clipping it does nothing.

Burly Bob

If you are on a hook, and the next piece is a bolt, sure, clip that bolt with the rope as soon as you can, but mostly Burly Bob is right.

I'll bet Bob has that next bomber piece clipped... with his daisy. No particular need to clip the rope.


ptlong2


Oct 24, 2010, 6:16 PM
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malcolm777b wrote:
IF you fell after clipping the piece you are standing on (and that means slipping and falling out of your aiders), you're going to take a daisy fall regardless of whether you clipped the rope to your current piece or not. So, one of two things happen: 1) Daisy fall rips piece and you fall to your next good piece (longer fall from the extra rope out from clipping the current piece), 2) Daisy arrests fall and does not rip piece (clipping current piece didn't do anything). Since there is no advantage to clip the piece you are currently standing on, why deal with the cluster by adding the rope and additional biners/draws?

You're assuming a particular sequence, that he's still attached (loosely) with his daisy after clipping the rope, and that the piece is above his waist.


malcolm777b


Oct 24, 2010, 11:14 PM
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ptlong2 wrote:
malcolm777b wrote:
IF you fell after clipping the piece you are standing on (and that means slipping and falling out of your aiders), you're going to take a daisy fall regardless of whether you clipped the rope to your current piece or not. So, one of two things happen: 1) Daisy fall rips piece and you fall to your next good piece (longer fall from the extra rope out from clipping the current piece), 2) Daisy arrests fall and does not rip piece (clipping current piece didn't do anything). Since there is no advantage to clip the piece you are currently standing on, why deal with the cluster by adding the rope and additional biners/draws?

You're assuming a particular sequence, that he's still attached (loosely) with his daisy after clipping the rope, and that the piece is above his waist.

I am assuming that he is not unclipping the daisy from the piece/aider. If he isn't, he better be clipping SOMETHING, either the rope or a draw to the aider, or his aider and piece are most likely gone if the piece rips.

And no, I am not assuming that the piece is above his waist. He can be top stepped, or sub-top stepped (ie. piece below waist) and still take a daisy fall.


ptlong2


Oct 25, 2010, 10:07 AM
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Re: [malcolm777b] Clipping the rope [In reply to]
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malcolm777b wrote:
I am assuming that he is not unclipping the daisy from the piece/aider. If he isn't, he better be clipping SOMETHING, either the rope or a draw to the aider, or his aider and piece are most likely gone if the piece rips.

We were talking about the rope being clipped. If he's clipped in short to a loop or a draw, or the piece is above him and the daisy is tight, or he has unclipped his daisy from the piece, then no daisy fall. On some aid some people don't even use daisies.

Your conclusion is only true for some techniques and sequences.

In reply to:
And no, I am not assuming that the piece is above his waist. He can be top stepped, or sub-top stepped (ie. piece below waist) and still take a daisy fall.

You were assuming the piece is above his waist in your first case, where the piece he's on rips. You said "longer fall from extra rope out". That's only true if he clips above his waist.


malcolm777b


Oct 25, 2010, 12:09 PM
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ptlong2 wrote:
malcolm777b wrote:
I am assuming that he is not unclipping the daisy from the piece/aider. If he isn't, he better be clipping SOMETHING, either the rope or a draw to the aider, or his aider and piece are most likely gone if the piece rips.

We were talking about the rope being clipped. If he's clipped in short to a loop or a draw, or the piece is above him and the daisy is tight, or he has unclipped his daisy from the piece, then no daisy fall. On some aid some people don't even use daisies.

Your conclusion is only true for some techniques and sequences.
True, some sequences don't use daisy chains, and some sequences unclip them after the bounce test. I think it's safe to say though, that it is very common to have daisy chains connected to the aiders pretty much full time. If you are clipped in short, or with a draw and are levering on it into the top step or sub-top step and somehow fall, technically it is the same thing as a daisy fall.

In reply to:
In reply to:
And no, I am not assuming that the piece is above his waist. He can be top stepped, or sub-top stepped (ie. piece below waist) and still take a daisy fall.

You were assuming the piece is above his waist in your first case, where the piece he's on rips. You said "longer fall from extra rope out". That's only true if he clips above his waist.
True, but that requires a transition (stepping above the piece). If you're going to clip the rope to the piece you're currently on, it's probably safe to say that you aren't going to wait until you're above the piece (doing anything below you while levered above the piece is just awkward).

I must freely admit that I don't usually consider sequences that don't use daisy chains because it seems like too much risk of dropping aiders, or losing an aider clipped to the piece if you fail a bounce test. The sequence where you clip a daisy, then unclip after the bounce test, then clip the rope to the piece seems like too many steps to move efficiently (plus the downside of added fall distance before you're above the piece).


(This post was edited by malcolm777b on Oct 25, 2010, 12:12 PM)


ptlong2


Oct 25, 2010, 1:04 PM
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malcolm777b wrote:
I think it's safe to say though, that it is very common to have daisy chains connected to the aiders pretty much full time.

It is one common method. But it is also common to have the aiders disconnected.

In reply to:
If you are clipped in short, or with a draw and are levering on it into the top step or sub-top step and somehow fall, technically it is the same thing as a daisy fall.

That's irrelevent as to whether or not you've clipped the rope.

In reply to:
If you're going to clip the rope to the piece you're currently on, it's probably safe to say that you aren't going to wait until you're above the piece

No, it isn't safe to say that. Xtrmecat posted that he usually reaches down to clip the rope. That Long/Middendorf book recommends clipping when you're even with the piece, not below it. Macnamara says to clip the rope to the previous piece after you've clipped in close to the next piece.

In reply to:
I must freely admit that I don't usually consider sequences that don't use daisy chains because it seems like too much risk of dropping aiders, or losing an aider clipped to the piece if you fail a bounce test. The sequence where you clip a daisy, then unclip after the bounce test, then clip the rope to the piece seems like too many steps to move efficiently

That's your opinion. But you've made a blanket statement based on your own preference, ignoring the fact that many other people, accomplished climbers, do things differently. It can depend on the situation as much as personal preference.

Do you always use the same gear and sequence when aiding regardless of terrain and difficulty?


malcolm777b


Oct 25, 2010, 2:20 PM
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ptlong2 wrote:
malcolm777b wrote:
If you are clipped in short, or with a draw and are levering on it into the top step or sub-top step and somehow fall, technically it is the same thing as a daisy fall.

That's irrelevent as to whether or not you've clipped the rope.
You are right, it isn't relevant because you'll take a static fall on the piece regardless.


In reply to:
In reply to:
If you're going to clip the rope to the piece you're currently on, it's probably safe to say that you aren't going to wait until you're above the piece

No, it isn't safe to say that. Xtrmecat posted that he usually reaches down to clip the rope. That Long/Middendorf book recommends clipping when you're even with the piece, not below it. Macnamara says to clip the rope to the previous piece after you've clipped in close to the next piece.
I see nobody saying to clip after you're above the piece that you're standing on. I've never heard of someone doing that, because it doesn't make sense. Xtrmecat was talking about clipping the piece AFTER he's on the new one....same with Macnamara.

In reply to:
In reply to:
I must freely admit that I don't usually consider sequences that don't use daisy chains because it seems like too much risk of dropping aiders, or losing an aider clipped to the piece if you fail a bounce test. The sequence where you clip a daisy, then unclip after the bounce test, then clip the rope to the piece seems like too many steps to move efficiently

That's your opinion. But you've made a blanket statement based on your own preference, ignoring the fact that many other people, accomplished climbers, do things differently. It can depend on the situation as much as personal preference.

Do you always use the same gear and sequence when aiding regardless of terrain and difficulty?
Ok, you got me...I made a statement based on the use of a static connection to the aiders which covers the great majority of aid techniques. So, why exactly are you arguing with me, instead of simply pointing out another scenario, and the advantages/disadvantages for the benefit of the OP?

And I do use different techniques based on terrain/length/difficulty. Mainly, how many aiders, and do I give myself an easy way to disconnect the daisy from the aider.


ptlong2


Oct 25, 2010, 4:15 PM
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malcolm777b wrote:
I see nobody saying to clip after you're above the piece that you're standing on. I've never heard of someone doing that, because it doesn't make sense. Xtrmecat was talking about clipping the piece AFTER he's on the new one....same with Macnamara.

Yeah, you're right, I mixed that up. Refer instead to Long/Middendorf or to the FISH link. Both descriptions instruct the leader to clip the piece he is standing on, when his waist is either even or above the piece, not below.

In reply to:
Ok, you got me...I made a statement based on the use of a static connection to the aiders which covers the great majority of aid techniques. So, why exactly are you arguing with me, instead of simply pointing out another scenario, and the advantages/disadvantages for the benefit of the OP?

Just for that point alone, really. The descriptions in those links are a few "other scenarios". I could offer my opinion as well, but it's really up to the OP to decide which techniques suit him best.


kristoffer


Oct 27, 2010, 4:19 AM
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Wow, you guys have nuked the hell out of this aid climbing..
put the books down and go get some miles under your feet..


-Zephyr


hyhuu


Oct 28, 2010, 4:48 AM
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kristoffer wrote:
Wow, you guys have nuked the hell out of this aid climbing..
put the books down and go get some miles under your feet..


-Zephyr

But what would we do with the internet if everyone would just get out and climb?

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