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Zeronine


Oct 29, 2010, 2:51 AM
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Static line top-rope anchor
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Learned this from an instructor this summer, but I'm just now getting an opportunity to put it into use, so I want to make sure I remember it right, and that it's safe.

I left some of the knots with some slack in them for illustration purposes, FYI.

I have 100 feet of 11mm static line. I start with a safety line dropped over the edge by about 8'. (Safety line has a knot in the end, and is used to put thru a grigri for safety while mucking about near the edge, or in case I need to rap over the edge a bit to fix the power point) From there it's a bowline on a bight around a tree for anchor 1, with the tail tied with a double fisherman's knot. Safety line is the one on the left in this picture.

[URL=http://img18.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=45166_PhotoOct0644206PM_122_459lo.jpg]

Other line from that night goes over the edge in a bight for the power point, with the other end coming up to anchor 2, tied around a tree in a similar fashion to anchor 1.

[URL=http://img131.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=45314_PhotoOct0644428PM_122_379lo.jpg]

Line coming out of that knot is tied off to the power point bight with a double fisherman's.

Power point equalized for anticipated direction of pull, and tied into an eight (you can see the safety line running off to the left):

[URL=http://img233.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=45478_PhotoOct0644306PM_122_541lo.jpg]

The complete anchor (yes, I tied it really long):

[URL=http://img160.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=45592_PhotoOct0644332PM_122_556lo.jpg]

From there I would tie off the safety line to keep it out of the way, and put in 2 or 3 lockers thru the power point opposite and opposed.

My only concern here is that the power point is single loop, which seems to lack redundancy. I could have sworn that when I learned this a few months ago, we ended up with two loops on the power point, but dang if I can remember how we got there.

Any feedback would be appreciated. I know there's 100 ways to slay this beast, including webbing instead of static line, but this is what I learned.


gunkiemike


Oct 29, 2010, 2:57 AM
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Re: [Zeronine] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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A bunny ears Fig 8 knot will give you a double powerpoint loop. But if your static rope is 10 mm, I wouldn't worry about a single strand PP loop.


colatownkid


Oct 29, 2010, 4:53 AM
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Re: [gunkiemike] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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gunkiemike wrote:
A bunny ears Fig 8 knot will give you a double powerpoint loop. But if your static rope is 10 mm, I wouldn't worry about a single strand PP loop.

Bunny ears do not add any redundancy to the system (if one loop fails, the whole knot fails). The OP would be better off using two figure-8s on bights right next to each other with the MP clipped through both.


Partner j_ung


Oct 29, 2010, 4:58 AM
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Re: [Zeronine] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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You can make the power point redundant with a BFK (big fucking knot), which is essentially an overhand (or figure-8) on a bight... on a bight. Equalize your anchor points, fold the bight into a double bight, then tie the knot. Voila.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Oct 29, 2010, 5:01 AM)


colatownkid


Oct 29, 2010, 4:59 AM
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Re: [Zeronine] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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Zeronine wrote:
Learned this from an instructor this summer, but I'm just now getting an opportunity to put it into use, so I want to make sure I remember it right, and that it's safe.

I left some of the knots with some slack in them for illustration purposes, FYI.

I have 100 feet of 11mm static line. I start with a safety line dropped over the edge by about 8'. (Safety line has a knot in the end, and is used to put thru a grigri for safety while mucking about near the edge, or in case I need to rap over the edge a bit to fix the power point) From there it's a bowline on a bight around a tree for anchor 1, with the tail tied with a double fisherman's knot. Safety line is the one on the left in this picture.

[URL=http://img18.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=45166_PhotoOct0644206PM_122_459lo.jpg][IMG]http://img18.imagevenue.com/loc459/th_45166_PhotoOct0644206PM_122_459lo.jpg[/IMG]

Other line from that night goes over the edge in a bight for the power point, with the other end coming up to anchor 2, tied around a tree in a similar fashion to anchor 1.

[URL=http://img131.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=45314_PhotoOct0644428PM_122_379lo.jpg][IMG]http://img131.imagevenue.com/loc379/th_45314_PhotoOct0644428PM_122_379lo.jpg[/IMG]

Line coming out of that knot is tied off to the power point bight with a double fisherman's.

Power point equalized for anticipated direction of pull, and tied into an eight (you can see the safety line running off to the left):

[URL=http://img233.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=45478_PhotoOct0644306PM_122_541lo.jpg][IMG]http://img233.imagevenue.com/loc541/th_45478_PhotoOct0644306PM_122_541lo.jpg[/IMG]

The complete anchor (yes, I tied it really long):

[URL=http://img160.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=45592_PhotoOct0644332PM_122_556lo.jpg][IMG]http://img160.imagevenue.com/loc556/th_45592_PhotoOct0644332PM_122_556lo.jpg[/IMG]

From there I would tie off the safety line to keep it out of the way, and put in 2 or 3 lockers thru the power point opposite and opposed.

My only concern here is that the power point is single loop, which seems to lack redundancy. I could have sworn that when I learned this a few months ago, we ended up with two loops on the power point, but dang if I can remember how we got there.

Any feedback would be appreciated. I know there's 100 ways to slay this beast, including webbing instead of static line, but this is what I learned.

The second loop you are looking for would come from a second figure-8 on a bight tied close to the first one. You can then clip both knots with your lockers.

Ideally, you would also clip your TR rope into the lockers at this point and drop the whole thing over the edge before tying into your second tree. This will put some weight on your masterpoint, making it easier to equalize the second knot.

With this weight on the MP, sling the second tree and clip another locker to the sling. Tie a clove hitch to this locker so that the two legs of the anchor are equalized. If they aren't perfectly equalized, the anchor is easily adjusted with the clove hitch. The clove hitch can then be backed up with a hard knot if desired.

If done by a well-practiced individual, this whole set up can be completed in just a few minutes and is totally solid, redundant, and fairly equalized. It's one of my favorite ways to rig a TR anchor.


acorneau


Oct 29, 2010, 5:20 AM
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Re: [colatownkid] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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colatownkid wrote:
Bunny ears do not add any redundancy to the system (if one loop fails, the whole knot fails). The OP would be better off using two figure-8s on bights right next to each other with the MP clipped through both.

The super-8/Canadian-8/double-loop-8 (whatever you want to call it) will absolutely hold if one loop is compromised, assuming you've set the knot as you should. I agree with GunkieMike that a single loop of 11mm static is plenty.

Also, if the two anchors (trees) aren't close to each other then the two separate fig-8's can triaxialy load the master point biners. Seen it plenty of times.


ncrockclimber


Oct 29, 2010, 5:48 AM
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Re: [acorneau] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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Not to be argumentative, but I am almost 100% sure that this is NOT accurate. If one of the loops fails, the other loop fails. I believe that there is a video floating around out there of where a kid cuts one of the loops then bounces on the line until the knot fails. Someone with better internet search skills than me could probably find it. That being said, the Double-8 / Bunny Ears 8 is a great knot for anchoring to two bolts.

In the situation in the original post, I would double the rope and make a master point that has two loops. I think that is pretty standard. I like redundancy whenever possible, but that is just how I roll. However, a single strand of 11mm static line is probably fine.


majid_sabet


Oct 29, 2010, 8:06 AM
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Re: [Zeronine] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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in one week while cruising in RC, you will be so sorry to even mentioning what you learn from that poor instructor.


Zeronine


Oct 29, 2010, 8:14 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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Nah he was from an established school, with a ton of experience, and I trust him.

This was more about me trying to remember what he told me correctly, rather than whether or not everyone 100% agrees with the basic idea.

That being said, I appreciate everyones input. I'll go home after work and rebuild this thing, and see if I grasp what you're all talking about.
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spikeddem


Oct 29, 2010, 8:15 AM
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Re: [ncrockclimber] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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ncrockclimber wrote:
Not to be argumentative, but I am almost 100% sure that this is NOT accurate. If one of the loops fails, the other loop fails. I believe that there is a video floating around out there of where a kid cuts one of the loops then bounces on the line until the knot fails. Someone with better internet search skills than me could probably find it. That being said, the Double-8 / Bunny Ears 8 is a great knot for anchoring to two bolts.

Your worry is apparently that the rope used in the bunny ears 8 is compromised (and that the knot itself is supposedly non-redundant). Exactly what is the difference in safety between the bunny ears 8 being used on two bolts versus as the masterpoint? Why, in your opinion, is one great and the other not? Be specific.


ClimbSoHigh


Oct 29, 2010, 8:45 AM
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Re: [ncrockclimber] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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You should be fine with only 1 fig 8 on a bight for your master point, but as others have mentioned, it is pretty quick and more redundant to tie 2 fig 8's on a bight next to each other.

I'll give you my general method I use for using a static off trees. Others feel free to comment on the weak points of my system, feedback always helps.

I first tie off a tree. I have 3 ways I do this, none of which involve a bowline or a separate safety rope but I can see how this would make life easier and safer, but take longer. Anyways, I usually just wrap the static rope around the tree about 5-7 times, then tie an 8 on a bite, and clip the bite to the anchor leg with a locker. I like it since it is really quick and easy, and the friction of the rope on the tree stops any sliding. Yes i know the rope theoretically could start unraveling around the tree then side load the locker, but there is so much friction from wrapping the static around the tree so many times that I have never seen any slippage in my years of using this technique. (works even better with flat webbing, make suer the wrapps look neat) I always give a really violent tug on the rope to confirm there is no slippage. I like it not only cuz its quick, but also is multi-directional. Another fast technique is to just sling the tree quick, tie an 8 on a bite on the static, and clip to the sling with a locker, but that uses more gear and is not multidrectional, but works better for smaller diameter trees. Then I usually klemheist into the static and head to the cliff edge with my climbing rope (lighter and cheaper than a gri gri, but more power to you if u use a gri gri instead. I just like the klemheist since the gri gri bends the rope a bit even when not weighted, and makes it harder to set the master point exactly where you want it since your safety line is also the anchor leg), Then, sitting at the edge, I tie a fig 8 on a bight, clip a locker to it, then tie antoher 8 on a bight next to it and I put another locker on that bite. (1 locker for each fig 8) Then I clip the climbing rope through both lockers, opposite opposing, lock the lockers, toss the climbing rope so the anchor is weighted, make sure the biners are oriented correctl (not side loaded), double check they are locked... tripple check they are locked again, then walk back from the edge, and undo the klemheist. Then I take the free end of the rope and walk back to the second tree I am going to use for the other anchor leg. Before tying the second tree, I verify that both legs are not going to over any sharp edges and if so I pad with a little carpet, jacket, or whatever. Also I make sure the static is settled nice in natural grooves before tying off the second tree. I then wrap the free end around the tree once, then pull it so I can feel the anchor equalized, then wrap it around the tree another 4-6 times, tie an 8 on a bite and clip it to the anchor leg like I did for the first one. Double check the 2 trees to make sure the lockers are locked, and I'm done! (thats why I tripple check the master point while I am already at the edge with my klemheist, so I don't have to go back to double check that part of the set up). I can usually get a TR set up in about 5-10 min with this technique. I know I could do a few more things to make it even more safe and redundant, but I am comfortable with this method for 95% or situations.

If the cliff top is sketchy or If I need to rap to a point much lower for the anchor, I usually tie a 40ft static I have as my rap/safety line, or just bring a full length rap line if needed so I can safely hang the anchors, and then rap easily to the ground to start climbing. For this I usually bring a gri gri since it's quicker as it takes more time to set up an auto blocking rappel.

Your method seems plenty secure, but try adding a second 8 on a bite at the master point since it is really fast and easy to do. I like the idea of having a safety line independant of the anchor leg, I might have to play around with this. Like sling the first tree, use a locker to a fig 8 on a bite with enough tail to use as an independant safety line... I kinda like that idea and will use this next time I clearly don't need most of the rope to make the anchor.


spikeddem


Oct 29, 2010, 8:49 AM
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Re: [ClimbSoHigh] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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ClimbSoHigh wrote:
I first tie off a tree. I have 3 ways I do this, none of which involve a bowline or a separate safety rope but I can see how this would make life easier and safer, but take longer. Anyways, I usually just wrap the static rope around the tree about 5-7 times, then tie an 8 on a bite, and clip the bite to the anchor leg with a locker. I like it since it is really quick and easy, and the friction of the rope on the tree stops any sliding. Yes i know the rope theoretically could start unraveling around the tree then side load the locker, but there is so much friction from wrapping the static around the tree so many times that I have never seen any slippage in my years of using this technique. (works even better with flat webbing, make suer the wrapps look neat) I always give a really violent tug on the rope to confirm there is no slippage. I like it not only cuz its quick, but also is multi-directional. Another fast technique is to just sling the tree quick, tie an 8 on a bite on the static, and clip to the sling with a locker, but that uses more gear and is not multidrectional, but works better for smaller diameter trees. Then I usually klemheist into the static and head to the cliff edge with my climbing rope (lighter and cheaper than a gri gri, but more power to you if u use a gri gri instead. I just like the klemheist since the gri gri bends the rope a bit even when not weighted, and makes it harder to set the master point exactly where you want it since your safety line is also the anchor leg), Then, sitting at the edge, I tie a fig 8 on a bight, clip a locker to it, then tie antoher 8 on a bight next to it and I put another locker on that bite. (1 locker for each fig 8) Then I clip the climbing rope through both lockers, opposite opposing, lock the lockers, toss the climbing rope so the anchor is weighted, make sure the biners are oriented correctl (not side loaded), double check they are locked... tripple check they are locked again, then walk back from the edge, and undo the klemheist. Then I take the free end of the rope and walk back to the second tree I am going to use for the other anchor leg. Before tying the second tree, I verify that both legs are not going to over any sharp edges and if so I pad with a little carpet, jacket, or whatever. Also I make sure the static is settled nice in natural grooves before tying off the second tree. I then wrap the free end around the tree once, then pull it so I can feel the anchor equalized, then wrap it around the tree another 4-6 times, tie an 8 on a bite and clip it to the anchor leg like I did for the first one. Double check the 2 trees to make sure the lockers are locked, and I'm done! (thats why I tripple check the master point while I am already at the edge with my klemheist, so I don't have to go back to double check that part of the set up). I can usually get a TR set up in about 5-10 min with this technique. I know I could do a few more things to make it even more safe and redundant, but I am comfortable with this method for 95% or situations.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!


ClimbSoHigh


Oct 29, 2010, 9:34 AM
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Oh and to the super-8/bunny-8/double-8. I am convinced that this knot really has little purpose in climbing, even for anchoring to two bolts. I just use a double length runner which is usually fastest for me.

Just thinking logically, we are talking about your lead rope here when using the bunny ears on bolts. It should not need to be redundant since it is your lead rope! I like to believe my lead rope is stong enough on its own and will not break since I take wippers on it and apparently it can hold 7 UIAA factor 2 falls. I would see the reason for using bunny ears to 2 bolts is that both the bolts and the rope are considered bomber. I could also see the knot failing if the rope is cut too though since the bunny ears are easily adjustible if you wanted to make one larger and the other smaller. Why will it slip/adjust then, but not if it is cut? (if the bolt failed, the biner/hanger would not allow it to slip through the knot). Or just do what I do, and never use the bunny ears since I have never been sold on it's usefullness..


sknowlton


Oct 29, 2010, 10:32 AM
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Re: [gunkiemike] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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Get a 20' length of tubular webbing, slide it over your static line and put it where you want your power point. Then tie the 8 on a bight (tying both the static and the webbing over it) and you have redundancy if you're concerned about the single loop of static cord.


jkd159


Oct 29, 2010, 11:17 AM
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j_ung wrote:
You can make the power point redundant with a BFK (big fucking knot), which is essentially an overhand (or figure-8) on a bight... on a bight.

The BFK is the best solution to the OP's question... if and only if the tail of the knot is clipped to the shelf. A BFK in heavy static line is hard to dress and may tend to loosen after several loading cycles. I've seen them come undone when tied in very stiff old static line. If the knot comes undone, the biners fall unhindered (compare to an eight on a bight which can't come untied when biners are clipped to it).

Other good solutions:

1) As others have mentioned, good static line does not need redundancy assuming you have it in a location where it will not be subject to abrasion. A single loop is sufficient.

2) Side-by-side eights on a bight. This is what I would call bunny ears (other posts above have applied the term bunny ears to what I would call the super-8 knot). This is completely redundant. Only risk is tri-loading your carabiners, especially if the angle between the two anchor points is large.

3) The super-8 knot does have two loops. I'm strongly of the belief that the knot is NOT redundant. If one loop cuts, the other will pull through under a low load. I've tested this. I do believe the assertion that a well dressed super-8 may hold body weight if one loop fails, but I do not consider it redundant. However, it is an easy knot to untie after it has been hung on all day long. And since I don't believe strong static line needs to be redundant for a TR anchor, the super-8 is a good choice.

4) Sliding tubular webbing over static line does provide redundancy. Essentially it increases the abrasion resistance of the loop. Be sure to check the static line each time it is used. If the webbing stays in place over the course of a season, then it simply serves to obscure damage to the static line.


iron106


Oct 29, 2010, 11:18 AM
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ncrockclimber wrote:
Not to be argumentative, but I am almost 100% sure that this is NOT accurate. If one of the loops fails, the other loop fails. I believe that there is a video floating around out there of where a kid cuts one of the loops then bounces on the line until the knot fails. Someone with better internet search skills than me could probably find it. That being said, the Double-8 / Bunny Ears 8 is a great knot for anchoring to two bolts.

In the situation in the original post, I would double the rope and make a master point that has two loops. I think that is pretty standard. I like redundancy whenever possible, but that is just how I roll. However, a single strand of 11mm static line is probably fine.

I always hear that "well if one of these loops fail there is no back up" I climbed for 10 years off just a regular 8 for TR. It dosen't seem that It would ever be a problem if done correct. If the forces are so sharp that it actually cuts through an 11mm static line it seems like another knot woul'nt even matter. Kind of like anchoring off of 4 bolts in case 2 of them break.

That being said I use the BFK.


cjon3s


Oct 29, 2010, 11:30 AM
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Re: [iron106] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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First... the super 8 will not fail if dressed properly when one loop is cut. Second, this setup is more or less what I use.

The only thing I do differently is tie the figure eight on a bight on the bight already at the end of the rope. You get a BFK and all you do is clip all THREE strands into your masterpoint. The two main strands form the knot plus the loop of slack left at the end. Bam, super redundant, very quick to tie, and bomber. I can set up faster than anybody using webbing and almost always have enough rope to set up two top ropes if the climbs are close together.


iron106


Oct 29, 2010, 11:32 AM
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cjon3s wrote:
First... the super 8 will not fail if dressed properly when one loop is cut. Second, this setup is more or less what I use.

The only thing I do differently is tie the figure eight on a bight on the bight already at the end of the rope. You get a BFK and all you do is clip all THREE strands into your masterpoint. The two main strands form the knot plus the loop of slack left at the end. Bam, super redundant, very quick to tie, and bomber. I can set up faster than anybody using webbing and almost always have enough rope to set up two top ropes if the climbs are close together.

But is all that really necessary?


cjon3s


Oct 29, 2010, 11:33 AM
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Considering it takes no longer than what the OP suggested and lends peace of mind, why not?


iron106


Oct 29, 2010, 11:36 AM
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cjon3s wrote:
Considering it takes no longer than what the OP suggested and lends peace of mind, why not?

I mean vs. just climbing off of a figure 8. Isn't simpler usually better?


cjon3s


Oct 29, 2010, 11:39 AM
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Its just a figure eight on a bight. Its not a difficult know to tie. My way achieves redundancy which I value over the second I would save tying an easier knot


Zeronine


Oct 29, 2010, 3:07 PM
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Ok so the eight on a bight, on a bight, to get a two loop power point is what I was looking for, and what I was originally taught, as it turns out.

I just tied the tail out of the knot into a double fisherman's on one of the anchor legs.

That look ok? I agree with some of you that one loop of that 11mm line is likely sufficient, but why not add a level of redundancy when it's so easy to do?


(This post was edited by Zeronine on Oct 29, 2010, 3:09 PM)


Partner drector


Oct 29, 2010, 3:24 PM
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Re: [Zeronine] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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Zeronine wrote:
but why not add a level of redundancy when it's so easy to do??

I thought that someone already answered that question. Because it takes time away from climbing. Also, because it is unnecessary due to the core strands of the rope are already redundant to each other and they are all of the redundancy that is needed in a top rope anchor using a heavy static rope.


Zeronine


Oct 29, 2010, 3:28 PM
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Re: [drector] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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Ok, but let me ask you this:

Does it make the setup less safe?

It took me about 15 extra seconds, so I think I can afford that.


cjon3s


Oct 29, 2010, 4:32 PM
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Re: [Zeronine] Static line top-rope anchor [In reply to]
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Exactly. Tying one knot over the other is onlu seconds of extra time. Im okay with that

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