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Jooler


Nov 5, 2010, 9:27 AM
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Endurance/"Power endurance"
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I'm not too sure how to word my question so I'll just spew it all and hope someone understands... Tongue

My bouldering and route climbing are not remotely on par with each other. I boulder V6 to V7, however I find on routes harder than about 5.11d that I get extremely pumped and am usually unable to climb it cleanly. Would this be an issue with my endurance or is it more of a "power endurance" issue? On lower graded climbs I have no problem with a pump, which brings me to believe its more of a "power endurance" thing. Can anyone confirm this?

Also, what are some good excersizes/drills to do to increase my "power endurance", or endurance if that is the overall problem?

Thanks!


Dip


Nov 5, 2010, 10:00 AM
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Re: [Jooler] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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Depending on your situation and the type of training readily available to you, The Self Coached Climber would be the best place to look for a regiment that can help you progress on rope. 4x4's, laps, etc are probably the way to go.

Disclaimer: I'm by no means an expert, as i'm in the same boat as you, but i do have the book and it does seem that given the time and opportunity the training programs suggested in there would pay dividends.


Express


Nov 5, 2010, 11:33 AM
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Re: [Jooler] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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I would venture that it depends on the types of routes you are climbing in each arena and the kind of technique you are using. If you're used to crimpy, technical boulder problems and you're trying to work long slopey lead routes, (or vise-versa) then perhaps the things you're trying to are not complimentary.

Another possibility is that you're not reading the routes so great, and you're taking rests at the wrong places and clipping from bad stances. Both of those will pump you out for sure.

Also, I would agree with running laps or 4x4s to help improve your endurance, but there is a balance point where you want to keep your risk of injury low and your gains high. Good luck


bustloose


Nov 5, 2010, 12:01 PM
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Re: [Dip] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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Dip wrote:
Depending on your situation and the type of training readily available to you, The Self Coached Climber would be the best place to look for a regiment that can help you progress on rope. 4x4's, laps, etc are probably the way to go.

Disclaimer: I'm by no means an expert, as i'm in the same boat as you, but i do have the book and it does seem that given the time and opportunity the training programs suggested in there would pay dividends.

i was going to be that someone would tell you to read the SCC, and that someone else would tell you to do 4x4's and BAM, here they are in the same paragraph!


bustloose


Nov 5, 2010, 12:05 PM
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"endurance" is basically being able to do moves below your limit for longer before you get pumped - think longer easier routes, or being able to climb through the last few bolts after the crux.

"power endurance" also referred to as stamina is basically being able to do more moves at your limit before you get pumped.

your situation, as noted, could be due to a multitude of factors. you need to sort out what is holding you back before you can really train for it.


Dip


Nov 5, 2010, 12:22 PM
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Re: [bustloose] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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In reply to:
i was going to be that someone would tell you to read the SCC, and that someone else would tell you to do 4x4's and BAM, here they are in the same paragraph!

Yes clearly i spend entirely too much time reading this site. I should've included "use the very helpful search feature" and we could've ended the thread right there...Cool


spikeddem


Nov 5, 2010, 12:36 PM
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Re: [bustloose] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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bustloose wrote:
"endurance" is basically being able to do moves below your limit for longer before you get pumped - think longer easier routes, or being able to climb through the last few bolts after the crux.

"power endurance" also referred to as stamina is basically being able to do more moves at your limit before you get pumped.

your situation, as noted, could be due to a multitude of factors. you need to sort out what is holding you back before you can really train for it.

From Steve Bechtel:

Steve Bechtel wrote:
STRENGTH-ENDURANCE

Our usage Strength-Endurance is defined as the ability to sustain high-intensity effort. This is often used synonymously with the term “power-endurance.”

STAMINA

We use the term stamina to describle the fitness required to do lots of climbing in a day, or over a period of several days. We make a distinction here between stamina and endurance, using endurance for describing single-ptich fitness.

Self-Coached Climber does the same.

Here's some more from Steve, which pertains to terminology used in this thread:

Steve wrote:
“Tolerance” is the ability to sustain a high-level of strength for several moves on a climb. This quality is known by many names, including power-endurance, endurance, and strength-endurance. The latter of these terms is the best and most descriptive, but can be a bit confusing. Spanish climber and coach Jose Luis Ballesteros first turned me on to the term tolerance, and I find it has the right “feel” to it. In his words, “Tolerance is the ability of the whole body to withstand the demands of a strenuous route, one that lacks rests.” I’ll use tolerance and strength-endurance interchangeably. The term power-endurance needs to go in the trash with your old hexes.


DouglasHunter


Nov 6, 2010, 6:22 AM
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Re: [Jooler] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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Jooler,

Your situation is a common one. The tactical, cognitive, emotional, and fitness demands of bouldering and route climbing are so different, we should not expect that a climber who puts most of his time into straight bouldering will be able to climb routes well. If you mostly boulder then in terms of fitness you are almost certainly lacking in both local aerobic endurance and local anaerobic endurance.

There are a number of ways to train both of these. 4X4s were mentioned earlier but if you don't have any experience doing them I would start with doing intervals on routes rather than just jumping in to doing the highest intensity workout there is. For intervals on routes you want to do 4 - 6 laps on a route that takes 3 or more minutes for 1 lap. (this can be hard to find espcially in a gym, so you many not be able to find routes long enough. in that case just use what you have.) The ideal route is continuous and doesn't really have a crux. Your rest between intervals should be slightly less than your lap time. So if your lap time is 3:00 then try resting for 2:40. It takes experimentation to figure out the proper grade, and rest period. Try it on a 5.10a and see how that feels for you. Make adjustment from there.

I would also do some ARCing on routes as well. Both of these activities will help your become more accustomed to routes while providing targeted fitness training.


ceebo


Nov 6, 2010, 9:02 AM
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Re: [Jooler] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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On Top of endurance training, keep constant check of your movement skills and that your not using to much grip. Yes its a patronizing thing to say, but nobody is perfect, and on a 30m climb any slight issues will give you much bigger problems than a 10ft boulder.


spacemonkey07


Nov 6, 2010, 10:31 AM
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Re: [DouglasHunter] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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DouglasHunter wrote:
Jooler,

Your situation is a common one. The tactical, cognitive, emotional, and fitness demands of bouldering and route climbing are so different, we should not expect that a climber who puts most of his time into straight bouldering will be able to climb routes well. If you mostly boulder then in terms of fitness you are almost certainly lacking in both local aerobic endurance and local anaerobic endurance.

There are a number of ways to train both of these. 4X4s were mentioned earlier but if you don't have any experience doing them I would start with doing intervals on routes rather than just jumping in to doing the highest intensity workout there is. For intervals on routes you want to do 4 - 6 laps on a route that takes 3 or more minutes for 1 lap. (this can be hard to find espcially in a gym, so you many not be able to find routes long enough. in that case just use what you have.) The ideal route is continuous and doesn't really have a crux. Your rest between intervals should be slightly less than your lap time. So if your lap time is 3:00 then try resting for 2:40. It takes experimentation to figure out the proper grade, and rest period. Try it on a 5.10a and see how that feels for you. Make adjustment from there.

I would also do some ARCing on routes as well. Both of these activities will help your become more accustomed to routes while providing targeted fitness training.

Yess.. this is the answer we need!


aerili


Nov 7, 2010, 4:23 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
From Steve Bechtel:

Steve Bechtel wrote:
STRENGTH-ENDURANCE

Our usage Strength-Endurance is defined as the ability to sustain high-intensity effort. This is often used synonymously with the term “power-endurance.”

STAMINA

We use the term stamina to describle the fitness required to do lots of climbing in a day, or over a period of several days. We make a distinction here between stamina and endurance, using endurance for describing single-ptich fitness.

Self-Coached Climber does the same.

Here's some more from Steve, which pertains to terminology used in this thread:

Steve wrote:
...The term power-endurance needs to go in the trash with your old hexes.

Interesting, thanks.

I don't know about using the word "tolerance"--very meaningless imo, in a way. Not likely to catch on. No exercise scientists use such a word to describe similar metabolic challenges in other sports.

I don't think "power-endurance" needs to be thrown out, but I DO think strength-endurance is much more in line with what climbers are REALLY talking about and training for in most situations. Power-endurance is a term that means something real, but is probably encountered far less in climbing than most people realize.

I find it very irksome, however, that climbers think it means the same thing as strength-endurance. Strength are power are absolutely not the same.


spikeddem


Nov 7, 2010, 10:33 PM
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Re: [aerili] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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aerili wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
From Steve Bechtel:

Steve Bechtel wrote:
STRENGTH-ENDURANCE

Our usage Strength-Endurance is defined as the ability to sustain high-intensity effort. This is often used synonymously with the term “power-endurance.”

STAMINA

We use the term stamina to describle the fitness required to do lots of climbing in a day, or over a period of several days. We make a distinction here between stamina and endurance, using endurance for describing single-ptich fitness.

Self-Coached Climber does the same.

Here's some more from Steve, which pertains to terminology used in this thread:

Steve wrote:
...The term power-endurance needs to go in the trash with your old hexes.

Interesting, thanks.

I don't know about using the word "tolerance"--very meaningless imo, in a way. Not likely to catch on. No exercise scientists use such a word to describe similar metabolic challenges in other sports.

I don't think "power-endurance" needs to be thrown out, but I DO think strength-endurance is much more in line with what climbers are REALLY talking about and training for in most situations. Power-endurance is a term that means something real, but is probably encountered far less in climbing than most people realize.

I find it very irksome, however, that climbers think it means the same thing as strength-endurance. Strength are power are absolutely not the same.

If you're interested in more of his thoughts, you can check out his blog (if you haven't before): http://climbstrong.wordpress.com/. It's not organized the most efficient way, but it's generally interesting.


huabi


Nov 23, 2010, 9:36 PM
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Re: [Jooler] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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ghisino


Dec 8, 2010, 8:16 AM
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Re: [Jooler] Endurance/"Power endurance" [In reply to]
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Jooler wrote:
My bouldering and route climbing are not remotely on par with each other.

have a read here

http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/...-route-climbing.html

it's also true if you are not a "natural born" boulderer, but you boulder a lot for a while and do no rope climbing...you simply lose the feeling for it.

i was mainly a sport climber and especially good at vertical/slabby/balancey terrain.
Then one day for a series of odd circumstances coming together i switched to bouldering most of the time, indoors and out.
But i kept going route climbing on holiday, and i train specifically for it...on plastic, because there's no decent sport climbing crag here.

What happened in just 2 years of this regime, is that i bacame really good at burly "power endurance" routes, meaning sequences of 15 intense moves to be climbed fast, and made my first 13b on such a route.
But I've also lost a lot of "finesse" on those longer routes where saving energy on the easy bits is important. Really, i pick up a beta, think it's easy, then someone would come by and show that i can still make it much easier. It's just that i'm not used to the difference between "easy" and "easier" beta anymore.
Even on slabs, i can now do harder individual moves, and i'm better off on really cruxy pitches... but i tend to "get lost" midway on non-cruxy routes that two or three years ago i would have onsighted with confidence.
On slabs it's clearly not a problem of "getting pumped", it's that i'm not used anymore to stay "in the zone" for 20-30 minutes of consecutive climbing...at some point i lose it mentally, start to pull harder than necessary, get shaky, lose confidence, start to look for improbable alternatives for a move that's not so extreme but requires some coolness and as a consequence I get pumped and fall. Then i pull on the rope, look at the move, and discover that if i went through it without hesitations, i wouldn't even had noticed it was "hard".

meditate...


(This post was edited by ghisino on Dec 8, 2010, 8:17 AM)


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