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esander4


Nov 7, 2010, 4:42 PM
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Additions to rack?
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Hello, I'm new to the rock climbing forums. I was just wondering if any of you trad climbers could give me any additions they think would be good for my rack. I started tradding about a year ago, and finally getting a decent rack. I climb mostly in Poudre Canyon, Colorado/Estes Park, Colorado and Rocky Mountain National Park, Colorado. Sometimes at Golden Cliffs in Colorado. Here's the rack:

#0 Metolius Ultralight TCU
#1 Metolius MasterCam
#2 Metolius Fat Cam
#3 Metolius Power Cam
#4 Metolius TCU
#5 Metolius Fat Cam
#1 Wild Country Tech Friend
#1.5 Wild Country Tech Friend (older models of 1 and 1.5 friends, family cams passed from father to son, recently reslung)
#7 Trango Flex Cam
#.75 Black Diamond Camalot (older style, another family cam)
#1 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#2 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#3 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#6 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
A range of BD nuts and hexes (about 25 of them)
2 60 cm Metolius Nylon Slings
2 120 cm Metolius Nylon Slings
15 BD quicksilver quickdraws (dogbones replaced with various sizes of Petzl dogbones)

And then the basics, Mammut harness, 2 60m New England Equinox ropes, lots of non-locking and locking carabiners, 2 belay devices and assortments of sizes of 1 inch webbing.


Any suggestions for add ons to the rack? I went trad climbing last week and felt like I didn't have enough gear for more than a 60 ft or so pitch. I usually climb what most people do in 4-5 pitches, and it takes me 8-9 pitches and a lot more time. I'm trying to add a little gear to avoid this, but i don't know what.


Colinhoglund


Nov 7, 2010, 4:57 PM
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Re: [esander4] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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esander4 wrote:
Hello, I'm new to the rock climbing forums. I was just wondering if any of you trad climbers could give me any additions they think would be good for my rack. I started tradding about a year ago, and finally getting a decent rack. I climb mostly in Poudre Canyon, Colorado/Estes Park, Colorado and Rocky Mountain National Park, Colorado. Sometimes at Golden Cliffs in Colorado. Here's the rack:

#0 Metolius Ultralight TCU
#1 Metolius MasterCam
#2 Metolius Fat Cam
#3 Metolius Power Cam
#4 Metolius TCU
#5 Metolius Fat Cam
#1 Wild Country Tech Friend
#1.5 Wild Country Tech Friend (older models of 1 and 1.5 friends, family cams passed from father to son, recently reslung)
#7 Trango Flex Cam
#.75 Black Diamond Camalot (older style, another family cam)
#1 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#2 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#3 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
#6 Black Diamond c4 Camalot
A range of BD nuts and hexes (about 25 of them)
2 60 cm Metolius Nylon Slings
2 120 cm Metolius Nylon Slings
15 BD quicksilver quickdraws (dogbones replaced with various sizes of Petzl dogbones)

And then the basics, Mammut harness, 2 60m New England Equinox ropes, lots of non-locking and locking carabiners, 2 belay devices and assortments of sizes of 1 inch webbing.


Any suggestions for add ons to the rack? I went trad climbing last week and felt like I didn't have enough gear for more than a 60 ft or so pitch. I usually climb what most people do in 4-5 pitches, and it takes me 8-9 pitches and a lot more time. I'm trying to add a little gear to avoid this, but i don't know what.

Hummm. . . You have quite the "standard rack", most people could do most things with that rack (not withstanding places like the creek). Either one of two things. Your areas may need a larger amount of certain sizes. If so, take note of what your running out of and get more of those. That failing, get more creative with placements. Think 'what are the easy pieces to place for this route" and try to place every other size first.

Or . . . you need to start placing less gear per pitch. Place less when there is a clean fall or not cruxy. When I look back at how I protected a route, I often see more gear at the crux and much less elsewhere. Think about placing less but better pieces. Id rather have a A+ piece every 8' then a C- every 4'. Hope that helps.


(This post was edited by Colinhoglund on Nov 7, 2010, 4:57 PM)


bill413


Nov 7, 2010, 5:29 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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25 nuts. And all those cams. You don't need more gear. You need to think of placing the nuts first, and only if you can't, then place the cams.

Also - dogbones are not good slings for trad - they tend to transmit too much rope motion & torque to the gear placements. Slings are better. So, if you're dying to spend money on your rack, invest in slings (standard shoulder length - you can triple them if you want for carrying).


climbingaggie03


Nov 7, 2010, 7:00 PM
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Re: [esander4] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius.

To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it.


bill413


Nov 7, 2010, 7:25 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote:
I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius.

To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it.

39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.


(This post was edited by bill413 on Nov 7, 2010, 7:25 PM)


Colinhoglund


Nov 7, 2010, 8:16 PM
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Re: [bill413] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.

Didn't see 60 feet, I guess my mind converted that to meters.

Op, you need to start spacing out your gear better, or be more creative and heed the advice above, place nuts first then cams.

Also,see this photo.


and this quote from "evanwish", he says it very well.

"this is a picture i took one day cragging and on a lunch break. I like this because it demonstrates to new climbers how if you can't find a piece/placement you're looking for, just look around and you'll find something else. (i've noticed that new climbers will just pick a spot and pray they have gear for that exact spot, as opposed to seeing what gear you have in excess and seeing if that can coincide with the general area where you need gear) Above the frame of the picture is a #5, #6, #9, and big bro #4 and below it fit a bunch of smaller gear. "

If your running out of gear in 60 feet your doing something wrong.


TarHeelEMT


Nov 7, 2010, 8:26 PM
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You should NOT be running out of gear with that rack on a 100' pitch, let alone 60'. Either you're placing protection way too close together or, more likely, you're overlooking placements for which you have gear. If you add much more, you'll be carrying a big wall rack, not a trad rack.

The only gear suggestion I have is to ditch the dogbone quickdraws and get more 60cm slings. If you use draws at all, they should be of the most flexible variety possible. Ironically, the longer quicksilver draws are vastly superior to the Petzl dogbones for just this reason.


climbingaggie03


Nov 7, 2010, 8:27 PM
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Re: [bill413] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
climbingaggie03 wrote:
I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius.

To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it.

39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.

I don't disagree that he should probably work on spacing his pieces and looking for more creative placements, but he's carrying too many nuts, and he's only carrying 10 or 11 cams without very much overlap (I think) (I don't count the trango or wc cams cause I'd bet they don't place well/inspire much confidence)

With 10 cams, placing them every 8 feet, that's only 80 feet of climbing, that's asking him to place 12 nuts per 200 foot pitch. I think placing nuts is great, it's satisfying to find a good nut placement and very comforting, but it's not very conducive to speed. Also I don't mind placing a nut when I see a good placement but I don't think I've ever placed 12 nuts in 1 pitch, that's more than a whole set of nuts.

And then there's the need for extra gear for anchors.


TarHeelEMT


Nov 7, 2010, 9:44 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote:
bill413 wrote:
climbingaggie03 wrote:
I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius.

To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it.

39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.

I don't disagree that he should probably work on spacing his pieces and looking for more creative placements, but he's carrying too many nuts, and he's only carrying 10 or 11 cams without very much overlap (I think) (I don't count the trango or wc cams cause I'd bet they don't place well/inspire much confidence)

With 10 cams, placing them every 8 feet, that's only 80 feet of climbing, that's asking him to place 12 nuts per 200 foot pitch. I think placing nuts is great, it's satisfying to find a good nut placement and very comforting, but it's not very conducive to speed. Also I don't mind placing a nut when I see a good placement but I don't think I've ever placed 12 nuts in 1 pitch, that's more than a whole set of nuts.

And then there's the need for extra gear for anchors.

Nonsense. They're fine cams. I've climbed on both many times and own some of the Trangos. He's in the range of 13-14 cams depending on whether or not he drags the #6 camalot with him. 13 is about as many cams as I ever carry unless I'm doing an aid route.


esander4


Nov 7, 2010, 10:39 PM
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Thanks for the info. In theory yes, I do have enough gear for a long pitch. But I end up running into a few problems along the way.

1.) This is the least important since I do it anyway, but i just don't feel that confident in a nut taking a fall regardless of what everyone says. I guess I'll just have to take a fall on one eventually to get over that, but i don't like to place them too often

2.) I try to save 5 cams for the anchor. Yes I know, you only use 3 cams for the anchor, but when I can't see the cracks I'll be using for my belay, I want options. I don't want to get up to the belay point with only 3 cams just to find out the only 1 or 2 will fit the crack

3.) Some of my cams just don't place on my routes. I have hardly every used my #0 TCU and #1 MasterCam. And my Fat Cams are sometimes just plain hard to place. I like to use them as belay cams, but along the route if i set them at a downward angle sometimes the cracks are too shallow

I also know I might place too often. But sometimes i'll barely place at all depending on my last placement. If I ever get a chance to place my #3 or #6 BD cams solidly, I might purposely not place gear for 25 feet or so (depending on how far above the ground I am of course, I won't do it unless I'm pretty high up). I feel really confident in those cams and I know I can save on gear by trusting them

As for the comments about the slings on my draws, thanks for the info.

And TarHeelEMT, you're right about the Trango and WC cams. I've taken 2 falls on my Trango and I know i might get shot for saying this but I like it much better than placing my BD #2. They feel really solid.


vegastradguy


Nov 8, 2010, 12:08 AM
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dump the hexes, double up on cams below .75 camalot and get a 4" piece, lose anything bigger and you'll be good to go.

also, if you dont like placing stoppers- dont lug 25 of them up routes. thats a waste of weight and resources. that said, id strongly suggest you get over that fear, as good nutcraft is an essential skill that will save your ass one day.


MS1


Nov 8, 2010, 6:30 AM
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esander4 wrote:
Thanks for the info. In theory yes, I do have enough gear for a long pitch. But I end up running into a few problems along the way.

1.) This is the least important since I do it anyway, but i just don't feel that confident in a nut taking a fall regardless of what everyone says. I guess I'll just have to take a fall on one eventually to get over that, but i don't like to place them too often

2.) I try to save 5 cams for the anchor. Yes I know, you only use 3 cams for the anchor, but when I can't see the cracks I'll be using for my belay, I want options. I don't want to get up to the belay point with only 3 cams just to find out the only 1 or 2 will fit the crack

3.) Some of my cams just don't place on my routes. I have hardly every used my #0 TCU and #1 MasterCam. And my Fat Cams are sometimes just plain hard to place. I like to use them as belay cams, but along the route if i set them at a downward angle sometimes the cracks are too shallow

I also know I might place too often. But sometimes i'll barely place at all depending on my last placement. If I ever get a chance to place my #3 or #6 BD cams solidly, I might purposely not place gear for 25 feet or so (depending on how far above the ground I am of course, I won't do it unless I'm pretty high up). I feel really confident in those cams and I know I can save on gear by trusting them

As for the comments about the slings on my draws, thanks for the info.

And TarHeelEMT, you're right about the Trango and WC cams. I've taken 2 falls on my Trango and I know i might get shot for saying this but I like it much better than placing my BD #2. They feel really solid.

Get a set of the most common tricams (.25-2, and maybe the 3 and 4 if those sizes work well where you climb). Use those instead of cams to build anchors with. That way you can place your cams as you climb, and run out of pieces less often. The tricams will weigh much less, and cost much less, than the equivalent additional cams.

(The above assumes that tricams work well on your local rock. If this is not the case, disregard my advice.)

If you don't trust your nut placements to hold a fall, you really need to work on your nutcraft.

And if it were me, I'd be trying to swap the fatcam and powercam for the same size of mastercams or tcus. At least at the places where I've climbed, small piacements are often easier to get with a narrower head-width of cam. Might help with your bottoming placement problem.


petsfed


Nov 8, 2010, 7:19 AM
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esander4 wrote:
2.) I try to save 5 cams for the anchor. Yes I know, you only use 3 cams for the anchor, but when I can't see the cracks I'll be using for my belay, I want options. I don't want to get up to the belay point with only 3 cams just to find out the only 1 or 2 will fit the crack

Learn to improvise. Learn to trust nuts. One of the most satisfying experiences of my trad climbing career was to struggle up a long pitch, only to find myself at the belay with 4 nuts and a cam left on my rack. That I could still build a good anchor with just that meant that I'd really learned how to place gear.

I have 36 cams. Usually I carry only 8 cams (the average pitch is only about 50 feet here) plus a set of nuts. My onsight-do-anything rack has twice as many cams. There's a lesson here: if you can't place nuts, you've cut the effective size of your rack in half.


jeepnphreak


Nov 8, 2010, 9:12 AM
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esander4 wrote:

Any suggestions for add ons to the rack? I went trad climbing last week and felt like I didn't have enough gear for more than a 60 ft or so pitch. I usually climb what most people do in 4-5 pitches, and it takes me 8-9 pitches and a lot more time. I'm trying to add a little gear to avoid this, but i don't know what.

OK I know its a bit nerve-racking to climb much above you last piece of pro. But try to get at least your feet past the last piece you placed before placing another piece. For a 60 foot pitch I plan on placing 6 to up to 10 pieces at most. my rack is half of what you have, and there are a lot of 160+ foot pitches around. so my suggestion is try to climb a above you pro, falling is OK.
Besides if you are placing gear every two feet you will take all day to get up any thing, and are going to have one pissed belayer.


brokesomeribs


Nov 8, 2010, 11:02 AM
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esander4 wrote:
Thanks for the info. In theory yes, I do have enough gear for a long pitch. But I end up running into a few problems along the way.

1.) This is the least important since I do it anyway, but i just don't feel that confident in a nut taking a fall regardless of what everyone says. I guess I'll just have to take a fall on one eventually to get over that, but i don't like to place them too often

Find someone who's been climbing since the 80's. Or just any regular schmuck who happens to be a solid climber with good gear skills and has at least a couple years of climbing under his belt. Offer a six pack to go out climbing with him for the day. Ask him to work with you on nut placements.

Nothing, and I mean nothing makes me feel all warm fuzzy like seeing a bomber nut way below me. Even a bolt has an element of unknown about it, but a good nut you placed yourself in good rock is about as solid as it gets.


esander4


Nov 8, 2010, 12:02 PM
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It's not that i don't have skill placing nuts or can't place a nut. It's that I don't like placing them. I think you all misunderstood me. If it comes to the option of placing a cam or a nut, I'll place a cam 99% of the time. I just struggle with being comfortable that a nut will take my fall. I've used a nut as an anchor once, I'm thoroughly satisfied it will take my weight statically. But I would just rather place a cam than a nut when given the option, which makes me run out of gear.

I don't really have a problem with overplacing gear. I'll usually place about every 8 to 10 feet.

And overall my problem isn't running out of gear. It's running out of the right kind of gear. When I end up setting my anchor, I'll still have a few pieces of gear left over, but none that would fit higher up to make a decent anchor.'

As for tricams, well I've never placed a tricam before, nor do i know if the place i rock climb would take a tricam. Also, they're kind of expensive

I bring that many nuts along also for my partner. I have a consistent partner I go with (my brother, but guess who didn't want to buy a rack?) and we switch leads. But where I climb, a lot of the crack are parallel or flaring, not really a lot of options for nut placements. Occasionally there will be one though

(This post was edited by esander4 on Nov 8, 2010, 12:07 PM)


petsfed


Nov 8, 2010, 12:13 PM
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esander4 wrote:
And overall my problem isn't running out of gear. It's running out of the right kind of gear. When I end up setting my anchor, I'll still have a few pieces of gear left over, but none that would fit higher up to make a decent anchor.

Can't place nuts, won't place nuts, the punch line is the same: nuts aren't placed. And if you find that you are running out of the right kind of gear for the end of the pitch, then you really are running out of gear. And if you can't or won't place nuts, then you have effectively cut the size of your rack in two, but you're still carrying all that weight. Where do you climb anyway?


ckirkwood9


Nov 8, 2010, 12:44 PM
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brokesomeribs wrote:
a good nut you placed yourself in good rock is about as solid as it gets.

agreed.... curious though - have any of you seen the recent post on "guess the quality of gear placements" (or something like that).

A guy posted a bunch of pics of active/passive pro, you were able to guess the quality of the placement, and after your guess, he'd reveal the outcome of a load placed on the piece.

i was surprised at results of load applied to one or 2 of the nut placements


bill413


Nov 8, 2010, 12:46 PM
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esander4 wrote:
It's not that i don't have skill placing nuts or can't place a nut. It's that I don't like placing them. I think you all misunderstood me. If it comes to the option of placing a cam or a nut, I'll place a cam 99% of the time. I just struggle with being comfortable that a nut will take my fall. I've used a nut as an anchor once, I'm thoroughly satisfied it will take my weight statically. But I would just rather place a cam than a nut when given the option, which makes me run out of gear.

A nut has no moving parts; cams are complex assemblies. I have not heard of a nut "breaking" in the last 15 years. I have heard af (and seen) broken cams.

I'd worry that if you don't like/trust placing nuts, you're probably not inspecting your cam placements. Plug & go sure feels nice, but you really need to apply the same judgment & evaluation to cams as you do nuts.

Don't get me wrong - I get the warm fuzzies from a well placed cam; especially if stressed. But bomber nuts are as strong as the rock.

In reply to:
And overall my problem isn't running out of gear. It's running out of the right kind of gear. When I end up setting my anchor, I'll still have a few pieces of gear left over, but none that would fit higher up to make a decent anchor.'

I've occasionally not had gear and placements to make an anchor I really liked. But, if you're arriving at your belay with a full set of nuts I'm surprised at no opportunities.

In reply to:
As for tricams, well I've never placed a tricam before, nor do i know if the place i rock climb would take a tricam. Also, they're kind of expensive

You won't like them. They're harder to judge than nuts, and take longer to place than cams.
Great things, but it doesn't sound like they'll work for you.

In reply to:
But where I climb, a lot of the crack are parallel or flaring, not really a lot of options for nut placements. Occasionally there will be one though

Flaring cracks - tough to get any gear - even cams can be suspect, but they may well be the best choice.
Parallel cracks - yeah, cams. But nuts (and hexes) will work better than you think.

Check inside the cracks. Also, what do others in your area do?


vegastradguy


Nov 8, 2010, 12:51 PM
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esander4 wrote:
And overall my problem isn't running out of gear. It's running out of the right kind of gear. When I end up setting my anchor, I'll still have a few pieces of gear left over, but none that would fit higher up to make a decent anchor.'

and yet you're still here, which means you probably worked out something and will probably keep working out things even if you dont buy more gear.

i have to say, in all the years ive been climbing, with all the racks i've used- small, large, my gear, others gear, gear im completely unfamiliar with, etc, etc, i've never once not been able to build an adequate anchor because i used the key piece on the pitch below. sometimes its been a real challenge, sometimes it means a hanging belay above or below a nice ledge (really rare), and sometimes it means recognizing what a 'good' anchor means for the given situation, and that isnt always gear in the rock.

part of the gear game is figuring out how to get it done with the tools you have at hand.


bearbreeder


Nov 8, 2010, 1:05 PM
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Re: [esander4] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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you absolutely must learn to place nuts ... not only does it save weight and yr cams ... they also work where cams wont

also consider the fact that for you anchor, you may be able to get away with a bit less until yr second comes up with all the gear ... then you can beef it up for belay ... this of course requires experience and good judgement

you definately dont need the piece to prevent upward pull till yr second comes up ...

i remember the first time i made an alpine trad anchor with 3 downward and 1 upward piece ... everyone just started laughing cause i used up half the alpine rack ... lol


esander4


Nov 8, 2010, 1:17 PM
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Re: [bill413] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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Yeah you're right. I might just go place a nut on the first pitch sometime and just jump off about 5 feet above so I can do it and get it over with (cam right below for some back up). That would help me with that mental block.

I've seen some others in the area I climb do slings around small flakes. But I want to get dyneema slings before I do that, and some of the flakes are so small i feel like in a fall they would just slip off. Last weekend when I went climbing the group before me only had about 7-8 nuts and all the rest cams (and a few ball nuts).

I don't think I'll spend the money on tricams. I have an old SMC camlock i got off of a route i climbed in Tennessee (my old home) but I have yet to place it after I reslung it. I may just sell it off


TarHeelEMT


Nov 8, 2010, 1:23 PM
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Re: [esander4] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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esander4 wrote:
It's not that i don't have skill placing nuts or can't place a nut. It's that I don't like placing them. I think you all misunderstood me. If it comes to the option of placing a cam or a nut, I'll place a cam 99% of the time. I just struggle with being comfortable that a nut will take my fall. I've used a nut as an anchor once, I'm thoroughly satisfied it will take my weight statically. But I would just rather place a cam than a nut when given the option, which makes me run out of gear.

Well, there's your problem. If you're at a good stance and have the choice between a good nut and a good cam, place the nut and save the cam for when you need it.

Cams are more versatile, so use the specific gear when you can to keep your options open for higher up when you have to take what you can get. Using a cam in a bomber nut placement is a waste of resources.


bill413


Nov 8, 2010, 4:34 PM
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Re: [esander4] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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esander4 wrote:
Yeah you're right. I might just go place a nut on the first pitch sometime and just jump off about 5 feet above so I can do it and get it over with (cam right below for some back up). That would help me with that mental block.

I've seen some others in the area I climb do slings around small flakes. But I want to get dyneema slings before I do that, and some of the flakes are so small i feel like in a fall they would just slip off. Last weekend when I went climbing the group before me only had about 7-8 nuts and all the rest cams (and a few ball nuts).

I don't think I'll spend the money on tricams. I have an old SMC camlock i got off of a route i climbed in Tennessee (my old home) but I have yet to place it after I reslung it. I may just sell it off

I'm a heavy tricam user - and even I don't like camlocks. There's a reason they aren't in the climbing stores.
They will hold in good placements, but they tend to fall out easily. I'd suggest staying away from them.


lithiummetalman


Nov 8, 2010, 6:00 PM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Additions to rack? [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:
dump the hexes, double up on cams below .75 camalot and get a 4" piece, lose anything bigger and you'll be good to go.

also, if you dont like placing stoppers- dont lug 25 of them up routes. thats a waste of weight and resources. that said, id strongly suggest you get over that fear, as good nutcraft is an essential skill that will save your ass one day.

Ditto.

Make it even simpler:

-Double set of BD cams .5-3"
-Double set of of microcams (BD, Metolius, or Aliens if u can find them!)
-#4 BD
-Single set of nuts
-10 trad draws
-96" sling

Find a consistent rack is easier to sort, keep track off, and one less thing to worry about when it comes to sizing, sure there are cons of not having that EXACT right size piece, but I would say 90% of the time you will have something that WILL fit.

Only pick up / borrow Specialty gear if you know you will be hitting up a particular climb that requires 3 # BD5, or extra slings.

Just make sure that you're comfortable and proficient placing all your gear, learn tricks to maximize the usage, double duty if you can, not only does this keep the system simpler, but can be incredibly useful in times when situations are less than ideal!

Cheers and safe climbing!!!


(This post was edited by lithiummetalman on Nov 8, 2010, 6:03 PM)

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