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petsfed
Nov 9, 2010, 2:37 AM
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All right, checking your first post, and your profile, you really, REALLY need to up your proficiency with placing nuts. I love Lumpy, and the granite in the rest of RMNP is better than that when it comes to placing nuts. Lumpy takes nuts better than cams, I've found. When I climb at lumpy, I tend to carry double sets of cams when I climb, and I still run out of nuts before I run out of cams. Its frustrating, because I don't really feel secure on an anchor unless one of the pieces is a bomber nut. Like I look for a good stance instead of putting that much weight on an anchor if I can't get a nut.
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esander4
Nov 9, 2010, 3:08 AM
Post #27 of 43
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petsfed wrote: All right, checking your first post, and your profile, you really, REALLY need to up your proficiency with placing nuts. I love Lumpy, and the granite in the rest of RMNP is better than that when it comes to placing nuts. Lumpy takes nuts better than cams, I've found. When I climb at lumpy, I tend to carry double sets of cams when I climb, and I still run out of nuts before I run out of cams. Its frustrating, because I don't really feel secure on an anchor unless one of the pieces is a bomber nut. Like I look for a good stance instead of putting that much weight on an anchor if I can't get a nut.
You really use that many nuts at Lumpy? In 2 consecutive weekends I climbed Batman and Robin on Batman's Pinnacle and Kor's Flake. When I was doing both the routes, it felt like all of the cracks I was following were flaring or parallel. Like occasionally I would look to the left and right and think "oh there would be a good spot to place a nut" but it was off route and impossible to get to from where I was. On Batman and Robin, on the route I found 8 or 9 places to put nuts. One of them was a belay station.
If you're ever back in the area, I want to try either Osiris or White Whale at Lumpy and would love a new partner
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petsfed
Nov 9, 2010, 4:02 AM
Post #28 of 43
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esander4 wrote: petsfed wrote: All right, checking your first post, and your profile, you really, REALLY need to up your proficiency with placing nuts. I love Lumpy, and the granite in the rest of RMNP is better than that when it comes to placing nuts. Lumpy takes nuts better than cams, I've found. When I climb at lumpy, I tend to carry double sets of cams when I climb, and I still run out of nuts before I run out of cams. Its frustrating, because I don't really feel secure on an anchor unless one of the pieces is a bomber nut. Like I look for a good stance instead of putting that much weight on an anchor if I can't get a nut. You really use that many nuts at Lumpy? In 2 consecutive weekends I climbed Batman and Robin on Batman's Pinnacle and Kor's Flake. When I was doing both the routes, it felt like all of the cracks I was following were flaring or parallel. Like occasionally I would look to the left and right and think "oh there would be a good spot to place a nut" but it was off route and impossible to get to from where I was. On Batman and Robin, on the route I found 8 or 9 places to put nuts. One of them was a belay station. If you're ever back in the area, I want to try either Osiris or White Whale at Lumpy and would love a new partner
Osiris loves nuts. You've just got to keep your eyes open. But be sure to pack a #4 camalot, and bring an offwidthing sensibility. Also, don't get lost after the third pitch. We got benighted and ended up doing some pretty hairy climbing to get out.
Also, I tried to do White Whale, on a tuesday, and it still had 3 parties on it. Cackle Crack is pretty good, runs the gamut from fists to fingers, I used a good medley on it.
I'll keep you in mind the next time I make it down. I hear Lumpy stays ok through the winter. I dunno, I only swing tools in the park between December and April.
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spikeddem
Nov 9, 2010, 4:02 AM
Post #29 of 43
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esander4 wrote: Yeah you're right. I might just go place a nut on the first pitch sometime and just jump off about 5 feet above so I can do it and get it over with (cam right below for some back up). That would help me with that mental block.
OK, I don't care if I'm GU'd or trolled, but THIS is not a good idea. It is absolutely not the way to approach your fear.
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spikeddem
Nov 9, 2010, 4:21 AM
Post #30 of 43
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spikeddem wrote: esander4 wrote: Yeah you're right. I might just go place a nut on the first pitch sometime and just jump off about 5 feet above so I can do it and get it over with (cam right below for some back up). That would help me with that mental block. OK, I don't care if I'm GU'd or trolled, but THIS is not a good idea. It is absolutely not the way to approach your fear.
Continuing on (wanted to finish reading the thread first)...
Thoughts
1) Do some aid climbing
2) Bounce test pieces on the ground
3) If you really want to whip on to your passive protection, do so HIGH up on the pitch and AWAY from ledges. Do not purposely whip on gear low to the ground for learning purpose, in my opinion. Promise me you'll have at least two pieces preventing you from hitting the ground. If your knot is, say, 45 feet up, you may try having a cam (your request) at 35, a nut at 39, and another nut at 40.
I'm pretty nervous about recommending anything though, since nobody on this board can determine if your fear is rightfully founded! Having a good lead head is not about being fearless. It is about identifying rational fear and irrational fear and handling each one in an appropriate way.
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esander4
Nov 9, 2010, 4:37 AM
Post #31 of 43
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spikeddem wrote: spikeddem wrote: esander4 wrote: Yeah you're right. I might just go place a nut on the first pitch sometime and just jump off about 5 feet above so I can do it and get it over with (cam right below for some back up). That would help me with that mental block. OK, I don't care if I'm GU'd or trolled, but THIS is not a good idea. It is absolutely not the way to approach your fear. Continuing on (wanted to finish reading the thread first)... Thoughts 1) Do some aid climbing 2) Bounce test pieces on the ground 3) If you really want to whip on to your passive protection, do so HIGH up on the pitch and AWAY from ledges. Do not purposely whip on gear low to the ground for learning purpose, in my opinion. Promise me you'll have at least two pieces preventing you from hitting the ground. If your knot is, say, 45 feet up, you may try having a cam (your request) at 35, a nut at 39, and another nut at 40. I'm pretty nervous about recommending anything though, since nobody on this board can determine if your fear is rightfully founded! Having a good lead head is not about being fearless. It is about identifying rational fear and irrational fear and handling each one in an appropriate way.
I wish I could do aid. I don't have the gear for it nor do I know of anybody who does aid. But, if you're offering.......
Yeah I definitely wasn't going to try a whipper close to the ground. Like maybe second pitch, 4 to 5 pieces of pro up (making sure there are no ledges) I place a cam, then about a foot up another cam, and then a nut barely above that and climb up about to where my shins are level with the nut and then fall.
My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with.
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esander4
Nov 9, 2010, 4:45 AM
Post #32 of 43
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petsfed wrote: esander4 wrote: petsfed wrote: All right, checking your first post, and your profile, you really, REALLY need to up your proficiency with placing nuts. I love Lumpy, and the granite in the rest of RMNP is better than that when it comes to placing nuts. Lumpy takes nuts better than cams, I've found. When I climb at lumpy, I tend to carry double sets of cams when I climb, and I still run out of nuts before I run out of cams. Its frustrating, because I don't really feel secure on an anchor unless one of the pieces is a bomber nut. Like I look for a good stance instead of putting that much weight on an anchor if I can't get a nut. You really use that many nuts at Lumpy? In 2 consecutive weekends I climbed Batman and Robin on Batman's Pinnacle and Kor's Flake. When I was doing both the routes, it felt like all of the cracks I was following were flaring or parallel. Like occasionally I would look to the left and right and think "oh there would be a good spot to place a nut" but it was off route and impossible to get to from where I was. On Batman and Robin, on the route I found 8 or 9 places to put nuts. One of them was a belay station. If you're ever back in the area, I want to try either Osiris or White Whale at Lumpy and would love a new partner Osiris loves nuts. You've just got to keep your eyes open. But be sure to pack a #4 camalot, and bring an offwidthing sensibility. Also, don't get lost after the third pitch. We got benighted and ended up doing some pretty hairy climbing to get out. Also, I tried to do White Whale, on a tuesday, and it still had 3 parties on it. Cackle Crack is pretty good, runs the gamut from fists to fingers, I used a good medley on it. I'll keep you in mind the next time I make it down. I hear Lumpy stays ok through the winter. I dunno, I only swing tools in the park between December and April.
Well it's November and Colorado is about 70 degrees and sunny this week...it's freakin beautiful. I'm dying to go climbing again before the snow kicks in.
I don't think it's the routes I need to be worried about at lumpy, it's the backtracking back to the parking lot at the end of the day. The approaches are ridiculous (can you tell I absolutely hate hiking?) and when we were walking back from B and R we did it in the dark. Ended up accidentally walking down a hunting trail after the cairns ended right after the boulder field and came out a mile down the road the goes up to the parking lot.
I want to see if I can make my own route at lumpy. It's way to big to just stick with the classics.
Have you ever been to The Palace in Poudre Canyon? Mostly sport there but a bit of single to double pitch trad. Vertical climbing instead of the slab climbing Lumpy offers, I like it a little better
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spikeddem
Nov 9, 2010, 4:53 AM
Post #33 of 43
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esander4 wrote: My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with.
Hmmm. I mean, I see what you're trying to communicate here, but if you really understand what's going on with nuts and their placements, then I don't understand why you'd have to have actually been caught by one. Being caught by one doesn't mean you make good placements. There's a certain probability that you'll happen to fall on one that just happens to be good that time.
I assume you've fallen on a cam then, since you don't have the same fear?
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esander4
Nov 9, 2010, 5:39 AM
Post #34 of 43
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spikeddem wrote: esander4 wrote: My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with. Hmmm. I mean, I see what you're trying to communicate here, but if you really understand what's going on with nuts and their placements, then I don't understand why you'd have to have actually been caught by one. Being caught by one doesn't mean you make good placements. There's a certain probability that you'll happen to fall on one that just happens to be good that time. I assume you've fallen on a cam then, since you don't have the same fear?
Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall
(This post was edited by esander4 on Nov 9, 2010, 6:13 AM)
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majid_sabet
Nov 9, 2010, 6:38 AM
Post #35 of 43
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bill413 wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius. To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it. 39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help.
more cams makes you more secure
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bill413
Nov 9, 2010, 1:14 PM
Post #36 of 43
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majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: I'd add some doubles, mostly in the .75 - 3 camalot range (though not necessarily camalots. Maybe a link cam or two and some metolius cams in that range. I also like to have doubles of small cams like yellow and orange metolius. To specifically know which pieces to buy, I'd look at which pieces you place most, and what size the cracks are when you find you really wish you had a piece, but already placed it. 39 pieces on his rack, and not enough for 60 feet? I really don't think doubling up on random cams will help. more cams makes you feel more secure [IMG]http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8678/pict0102t.jpg[/IMG]
Even if unfounded.
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j_ung
Nov 9, 2010, 2:39 PM
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I'm going to agree with everybody who suggested that the issue may be less your gear and more the way you use it (or don't as the case may be). Maybe spend some time on easier climbs and force yourself to get comfy with the gear you don't use as much.
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malcolm777b
Nov 9, 2010, 3:24 PM
Post #38 of 43
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esander4 wrote: spikeddem wrote: esander4 wrote: My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with. Hmmm. I mean, I see what you're trying to communicate here, but if you really understand what's going on with nuts and their placements, then I don't understand why you'd have to have actually been caught by one. Being caught by one doesn't mean you make good placements. There's a certain probability that you'll happen to fall on one that just happens to be good that time. I assume you've fallen on a cam then, since you don't have the same fear? Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall
I sincerely hope you're not serious about not being ok using a nut for lead pro, but are ok with using them for an anchor. The anchor is supposed to be bomber without question. If you're climbing multi-pitch, it should be good enough to take worst case scenario conditions (ff2). I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using nuts in an anchor (I prefer having at least one bomber nut in my anchors), but if you aren't confident in your nuts, do you really think you should be building anchors with them?
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spikeddem
Nov 9, 2010, 3:54 PM
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esander4 wrote: spikeddem wrote: esander4 wrote: My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with. Hmmm. I mean, I see what you're trying to communicate here, but if you really understand what's going on with nuts and their placements, then I don't understand why you'd have to have actually been caught by one. Being caught by one doesn't mean you make good placements. There's a certain probability that you'll happen to fall on one that just happens to be good that time. I assume you've fallen on a cam then, since you don't have the same fear? Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall
Right. Because, rock breaking is less of an issue when it comes to the increased forces of spring-loaded caming devices? Yeah, okay.
I find it incredibly unlikely that you really understand the physics behind a spring-loaded caming device, but doubt the principles behind passive protection. So much so, that I'm feeling that my suspicion that you're trolling is confirmed. Enjoy your thread.
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vegastradguy
Nov 9, 2010, 4:14 PM
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esander4 wrote: Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall
The second part of this paragraph tells me that you understand how cams work, but you have no clue about the actual physics of what occurs when a cam is loaded.
At the end of the day, rock quality is what determines if any piece of pro is going to hold. If you think that if the edge of the rock will break (and it occasionally does when stoppers are loaded) the stopper will blow, then you're either not placing your stoppers correctly or you should go back to ground school and learn more about how pro in general works. probably both.
in terms of aid- get two 48" slings and tie knots in them, borrow/use a couple of daisies, and aid a normally free climbable pitch. it doesnt have to be comfortable- thats not the point of the exercise.
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esander4
Nov 9, 2010, 4:44 PM
Post #41 of 43
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spikeddem wrote: esander4 wrote: spikeddem wrote: esander4 wrote: My fear comes from never having fallen on a nut (again, i do think I'm pretty proficient at placing nuts so that's not it). Remember that feeling before you ever fell on just a sport route? (I do anyway, I was flippin terrified) Before you fell it was scary, but after you took your first lead fall everything seemed okay. That's kinda how it is I think. I just need to do it and get it over with. Hmmm. I mean, I see what you're trying to communicate here, but if you really understand what's going on with nuts and their placements, then I don't understand why you'd have to have actually been caught by one. Being caught by one doesn't mean you make good placements. There's a certain probability that you'll happen to fall on one that just happens to be good that time. I assume you've fallen on a cam then, since you don't have the same fear? Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall Right. Because, rock breaking is less of an issue when it comes to the increased forces of spring-loaded caming devices? Yeah, okay. I find it incredibly unlikely that you really understand the physics behind a spring-loaded caming device, but doubt the principles behind passive protection. So much so, that I'm feeling that my suspicion that you're trolling is confirmed. Enjoy your thread.
I sincerely apologize for paling in comparison to your infinite wisdom, especially when it comes to knowing everything about someone you've never met.
I also apologize that everyone cannot be as fearless as you. I said my fear was irrational, but nope, that's just not good enough for you. You're going to attack what I know about climbing. That's okay, because I'm convinced that you just don't listen because i said multiple times, "It is irrational, but I don't feel comfortable with the idea of it...." (paraphrased, but you get the idea). I said I want to be more comfortable with taking a fall on a nut before I do it. That's it! It's a forum. I'm on here to get advice. If you don't want to give it, fine. But don't bother to say anything at all then.
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esander4
Nov 9, 2010, 4:52 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: esander4 wrote: Yep, I've fallen quite a few times on cams (over half the times I've fallen, it's been on the same cam. It's kind of an unlucky cam I guess). I also know the physics behind camming devices, and I trust that. All i know about stoppers is they wedge, and you have to rely on the rock that they wedge in to hold you. I have this (irrational) fear that the edge of what my nut is wedged into will maybe chip off slightly in a dynamic fall and that means the whole nut is gone. That's why I have no problem using a nut as an anchor, because the person that's cleaning will never take a dynamic fall The second part of this paragraph tells me that you understand how cams work, but you have no clue about the actual physics of what occurs when a cam is loaded. At the end of the day, rock quality is what determines if any piece of pro is going to hold. If you think that if the edge of the rock will break (and it occasionally does when stoppers are loaded) the stopper will blow, then you're either not placing your stoppers correctly or you should go back to ground school and learn more about how pro in general works. probably both. in terms of aid- get two 48" slings and tie knots in them, borrow/use a couple of daisies, and aid a normally free climbable pitch. it doesnt have to be comfortable- thats not the point of the exercise.
Well, I do understand the physics of cams. Maybe not as well as some people on here, but I take 300 level physics courses where I go to college and have taken 3 climbing pro classes that were offered. So I'm definitely no expert but I do know. It's a mental thing. I think if i can place a cam deeper, there more rock. So, more mass, more strength. That's all I meant. I realize a cam will exert more force, but if there's a greater amount of rock to take that force then it should hold better right? (Wrong, I know. But like i said before, it is irrational) That's why, as I've said, all i think it will take is just to fall on one to get over my mental block.
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vegastradguy
Nov 9, 2010, 7:40 PM
Post #43 of 43
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esander4 wrote: I think if i can place a cam deeper, there more rock. So, more mass, more strength.
apply this to stopper placements and you'll be good to go. stoppers placed on the outer edge of a crack are, like cams, going to be weaker and less solid than stoppers placed deeper in the crack. a buried stopper is a happy stopper.
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