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julio412
Nov 12, 2010, 10:27 AM
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This may sound likes it's coming from a noob; but it's not.
It's been a number of years since of done much aid; venturing off instead into the world of alpine and ice.
My question is really quite simple; is aid, in and of itself; considered an ethical discipline of climbing?Not just for walls; but for the mind games of hooks , poor placements , copperheading and tied off and stacked pins , of runouts and fear.In the years since, all these cool little toys have come out, "new wave" I guess.I remember the fear, and the search for calm, of shaking legs and dimensions of time, rarely experienced on much of anything else.To me this is the essence of climbing, I just wonder what others think.
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julio412
Nov 12, 2010, 10:58 AM
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Sorry- no youtube here.Welcome to China
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TarHeelEMT
Nov 12, 2010, 11:33 AM
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'Ethical' might be the single most misused word on these forums.
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bill413
Nov 12, 2010, 3:41 PM
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julio412 wrote: This may sound likes it's coming from a noob; but it's not. It's been a number of years since of done much aid; venturing off instead into the world of alpine and ice. My question is really quite simple; is aid, in and of itself; considered an ethical discipline of climbing?Not just for walls; but for the mind games of hooks , poor placements , copperheading and tied off and stacked pins , of runouts and fear.In the years since, all these cool little toys have come out, "new wave" I guess.I remember the fear, and the search for calm, of shaking legs and dimensions of time, rarely experienced on much of anything else.To me this is the essence of climbing, I just wonder what others think.
Aid is definitely a climbing discipline. It has it's own techniques and skill sets, and also shares in the skills & techniques of the other disciplines. It's all climbing - just different parts are emphasized.
As to ethical ... I think that's how you play the game compared to the community and your own ethos.
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xtrmecat
Nov 12, 2010, 5:10 PM
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Aid is definitely a climbing discipline. It has it's own techniques and skill sets, and also shares in the skills & techniques of the other disciplines. It's all climbing - just different parts are emphasized.
As to ethical ... I think that's how you play the game compared to the community and your own ethos.
The above is very true and accurate. My opinion of the aid discipline is it can be taken to the same extreme levels as any other. The rant video is the extreme opposite viewpoint as mine. I tend to believe that those opinions are coming from people who do not do much aid, and have never challenged themselves to the point of soiled pants pitches, only to realize that it can and does go way beyond the pitch you just scared yourself on.
As to ethical, well clean as I can is my chosen direction, and hopefully the same can be said for those I tie in with.
Burly Bob
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KeitaroHoshi
Nov 12, 2010, 7:47 PM
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I like to watch a lot of climbing videos.
I have seen some aid climbing videos.
It is the free climbing videos that keep me coming back for more.
It really pisses me off to see somebody hooking on solid freeclimbable edges. The word poser comes to mind when I think about aid climbing.
Even as bad ass as I am, I too am guilty of the
unethical aid climbing. The whole time I was thinking I could totally free this If only I had my climbing shoes.
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socalclimber
Nov 12, 2010, 9:46 PM
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bill413 wrote: julio412 wrote: This may sound likes it's coming from a noob; but it's not. It's been a number of years since of done much aid; venturing off instead into the world of alpine and ice. My question is really quite simple; is aid, in and of itself; considered an ethical discipline of climbing?Not just for walls; but for the mind games of hooks , poor placements , copperheading and tied off and stacked pins , of runouts and fear.In the years since, all these cool little toys have come out, "new wave" I guess.I remember the fear, and the search for calm, of shaking legs and dimensions of time, rarely experienced on much of anything else.To me this is the essence of climbing, I just wonder what others think. Aid is definitely a climbing discipline. It has it's own techniques and skill sets, and also shares in the skills & techniques of the other disciplines. It's all climbing - just different parts are emphasized. As to ethical ... I think that's how you play the game compared to the community and your own ethos.
Thank you Bill....
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malcolm777b
Nov 12, 2010, 10:14 PM
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KeitaroHoshi wrote: It really pisses me off to see somebody hooking on solid freeclimbable edges. The word poser comes to mind when I think about aid climbing.
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potreroed
Nov 13, 2010, 2:02 AM
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Aid climbing is perfectly legit and very demanding as a climbing discipline. I'll bet the guy who posted that he doesn't like the idea of aid has never experienced it.
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flamer
Nov 13, 2010, 3:58 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: I tend to believe that those opinions are coming from people who do not do much aid, and have never challenged themselves to the point of soiled pants pitches, only to realize that it can and does go way beyond the pitch you just scared yourself on.
The guy doing the rant (Chris Kalous) did the second ascent of Reticent wall, Get Whacked and several of the other El cap New wave aid lines...alot of them solo. He also did the 2nd ascent of Worlds End (solo) and Death of American Democracy in the Fisher towers.
Your "belief" is wrong.
Aid is fun in it's own right. But it's not pushing the limits in climbing anymore.
josh
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skiclimb
Nov 13, 2010, 5:41 PM
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flamer wrote: xtrmecat wrote: I tend to believe that those opinions are coming from people who do not do much aid, and have never challenged themselves to the point of soiled pants pitches, only to realize that it can and does go way beyond the pitch you just scared yourself on. Aid is fun in it's own right. But it's not pushing the limits in climbing anymore. josh
What limits.. the ultimate limits anyone has ever done?
If that is what it takes to be "climbing" then there sure as hell arn't any climbers here.
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shimanilami
Nov 13, 2010, 6:17 PM
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KeitaroHoshi wrote: I like to watch a lot of climbing videos. I have seen some aid climbing videos. It is the free climbing videos that keep me coming back for more. It really pisses me off to see somebody hooking on solid freeclimbable edges. The word poser comes to mind when I think about aid climbing.
The word "poser" comes to mind when I think about someone who makes judgements based upon videos he's seen.
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moose_droppings
Nov 13, 2010, 7:31 PM
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flamer wrote: xtrmecat wrote: I tend to believe that those opinions are coming from people who do not do much aid, and have never challenged themselves to the point of soiled pants pitches, only to realize that it can and does go way beyond the pitch you just scared yourself on. The guy doing the rant (Chris Kalous) did the second ascent of Reticent wall, Get Whacked and several of the other El cap New wave aid lines...alot of them solo. He also did the 2nd ascent of Worlds End (solo) and Death of American Democracy in the Fisher towers. Your "belief" is wrong. Aid is fun in it's own right. But it's not pushing the limits in climbing anymore. josh
Josh,
I've seen that vid before and was told he was just joking around and trying to troll people. I can't remember right now where I saw and read this, but I'll try to chase it down.
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shimanilami
Nov 13, 2010, 8:53 PM
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flamer wrote: xtrmecat wrote: I tend to believe that those opinions are coming from people who do not do much aid, and have never challenged themselves to the point of soiled pants pitches, only to realize that it can and does go way beyond the pitch you just scared yourself on. The guy doing the rant (Chris Kalous) did the second ascent of Reticent wall, Get Whacked and several of the other El cap New wave aid lines...alot of them solo. He also did the 2nd ascent of Worlds End (solo) and Death of American Democracy in the Fisher towers. Your "belief" is wrong. Aid is fun in it's own right. But it's not pushing the limits in climbing anymore. josh
What about ice climbing? It's hard to argue that it isn't aid, and you can't tell me that the likes of Haley, Garibotti, Prezelj, etc. aren't "pushing the limits" of climbing.
(This post was edited by shimanilami on Nov 13, 2010, 9:55 PM)
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flamer
Nov 13, 2010, 11:15 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: Josh, I've seen that vid before and was told he was just joking around and trying to troll people. I can't remember right now where I saw and read this, but I'll try to chase it down.
I believe Chris wrote about it in one of the mags.
I know Him alittle bit. I also know the guy who took the video...he's a good friend who actually lives right down the street.
While alot of what he said is tongue in cheek(obviously) it's also how he feels about it. He expresses it WAY over the top in "the rant", but he feels that way non the less.
josh
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xtrmecat
Nov 13, 2010, 11:21 PM
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flamer wrote: xtrmecat wrote: I tend to believe that those opinions are coming from people who do not do much aid, and have never challenged themselves to the point of soiled pants pitches, only to realize that it can and does go way beyond the pitch you just scared yourself on. The guy doing the rant (Chris Kalous) did the second ascent of Reticent wall, Get Whacked and several of the other El cap New wave aid lines...alot of them solo. He also did the 2nd ascent of Worlds End (solo) and Death of American Democracy in the Fisher towers. Your "belief" is wrong. Aid is fun in it's own right. But it's not pushing the limits in climbing anymore. josh
No, Josh, my belief is probably still spot on. Your gulibility is off the charts though. Did you notice the above comments, and not figure out when you hear the slurred speech, that something was amiss?
You sir, need to come out and aid at your limit, and then go one beyond that, reassess your statements, and see if they hold water. My guess is, NO WAY it isn't pushing the limits. Heck, just following a few of the aid masters would be pushing the limits, if you could.
Burly Bob
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flamer
Nov 13, 2010, 11:25 PM
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shimanilami wrote: What about ice climbing? It's hard to argue that it isn't aid, and you can't tell me that the likes of Haley, Garibotti, Prezelj, etc. aren't "pushing the limits" of climbing.
You make an excellent point concerning Ice climbing.
Alot of the "Ice climbing is aid" argument was hashed out when they outlawed leashes at world cup events, many moons ago.
Ice and especially mixed climbing are different from aid. There is a much more "free" aspect to it. Especially when climbing leashless.
There are many other points to hash out in that argument...I'm just not feeling like getting into them!
Look into Ogden and Nelsons "free" ascent of the Hallucinogen wall. Especially the article Nelson wrote on it. They blurred the lines between aid, ice/mixed, and free more than any ascent ever has. Their outlook on the whole thing was fascinating to me. They made some excellent points and had very cool ideas about all of it.
Also it's interesting the 3 climbers you mention are all very accomplished Alpine climbers.
Alpine climbing being a discipline that requires effciency in pretty much every climbing discipline you can think of.
I enjoyed your contribution to the this thread...an excellent point and discussion!
cheers,
josh
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flamer
Nov 13, 2010, 11:31 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: flamer wrote: xtrmecat wrote: I tend to believe that those opinions are coming from people who do not do much aid, and have never challenged themselves to the point of soiled pants pitches, only to realize that it can and does go way beyond the pitch you just scared yourself on. The guy doing the rant (Chris Kalous) did the second ascent of Reticent wall, Get Whacked and several of the other El cap New wave aid lines...alot of them solo. He also did the 2nd ascent of Worlds End (solo) and Death of American Democracy in the Fisher towers. Your "belief" is wrong. Aid is fun in it's own right. But it's not pushing the limits in climbing anymore. josh No, Josh, my belief is probably still spot on. Your gulibility is off the charts though. Did you notice the above comments, and not figure out when you hear the slurred speech, that something was amiss? You sir, need to come out and aid at your limit, and then go one beyond that, reassess your statements, and see if they hold water. My guess is, NO WAY it isn't pushing the limits. Heck, just following a few of the aid masters would be pushing the limits, if you could. Burly Bob
LOL.
What?
"my belief is PROBABLY spot on"
Well is it or isn't it?
"Burly Bob" you have no clue what my limits are or what I've climbed. But I don't need to call myself "burly" or "extreme".
As I stated before....I know those guys. My gullability is obviously less than yours.
Keep 2:1ing yourself up Yosemite Trade routes and telling yourself how "core" you are.
josh
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skiclimb
Nov 13, 2010, 11:50 PM
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flamer wrote: xtrmecat wrote: flamer wrote: xtrmecat wrote: I tend to believe that those opinions are coming from people who do not do much aid, and have never challenged themselves to the point of soiled pants pitches, only to realize that it can and does go way beyond the pitch you just scared yourself on. The guy doing the rant (Chris Kalous) did the second ascent of Reticent wall, Get Whacked and several of the other El cap New wave aid lines...alot of them solo. He also did the 2nd ascent of Worlds End (solo) and Death of American Democracy in the Fisher towers. Your "belief" is wrong. Aid is fun in it's own right. But it's not pushing the limits in climbing anymore. josh No, Josh, my belief is probably still spot on. Your gulibility is off the charts though. Did you notice the above comments, and not figure out when you hear the slurred speech, that something was amiss? You sir, need to come out and aid at your limit, and then go one beyond that, reassess your statements, and see if they hold water. My guess is, NO WAY it isn't pushing the limits. Heck, just following a few of the aid masters would be pushing the limits, if you could. Burly Bob LOL. What? "my belief is PROBABLY spot on" Well is it or isn't it? "Burly Bob" you have no clue what my limits are or what I've climbed. But I don't need to call myself "burly" or "extreme". As I stated before....I know those guys. My gullability is obviously less than yours. Keep 2:1ing yourself up Yosemite Trade routes and telling yourself how "core" you are. josh
According to your bio you have not pushed ANY significant limits in climbing.
Guess you are not a climber.
If pushing the known limits of climbing is the definition OF climbing then perhaps only a few days of actual climbing have happened in the entire history of the world.
Otherwise it's all climbing and limits are yours to choose and yours to challenge.
Aid climbing IS climbing stupid to say it aint.
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xtrmecat
Nov 14, 2010, 12:00 AM
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flamer wrote: xtrmecat wrote: flamer wrote: xtrmecat wrote: I tend to believe that those opinions are coming from people who do not do much aid, and have never challenged themselves to the point of soiled pants pitches, only to realize that it can and does go way beyond the pitch you just scared yourself on. The guy doing the rant (Chris Kalous) did the second ascent of Reticent wall, Get Whacked and several of the other El cap New wave aid lines...alot of them solo. He also did the 2nd ascent of Worlds End (solo) and Death of American Democracy in the Fisher towers. Your "belief" is wrong. Aid is fun in it's own right. But it's not pushing the limits in climbing anymore. josh No, Josh, my belief is probably still spot on. Your gulibility is off the charts though. Did you notice the above comments, and not figure out when you hear the slurred speech, that something was amiss? You sir, need to come out and aid at your limit, and then go one beyond that, reassess your statements, and see if they hold water. My guess is, NO WAY it isn't pushing the limits. Heck, just following a few of the aid masters would be pushing the limits, if you could. Burly Bob LOL. What? "my belief is PROBABLY spot on" Well is it or isn't it? "Burly Bob" you have no clue what my limits are or what I've climbed. But I don't need to call myself "burly" or "extreme". As I stated before....I know those guys. My gullability is obviously less than yours. Keep 2:1ing yourself up Yosemite Trade routes and telling yourself how "core" you are. josh
You truly are nothing more than a flamer, all hot air. You know very little of what I've done, and obviously nothing of where I've been. I do not even haul 2 to 1. You are proving to be less than worth the effort to answer, so long dipshit.
Bob (is that better mister delicate?)
editing to add, you haven't added any value to the thread, or site, so are you any more than dead weight here? I won't check for a response as I have real life things to attend to and already know the answer.
(This post was edited by xtrmecat on Nov 14, 2010, 12:06 AM)
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flamer
Nov 14, 2010, 3:29 PM
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skiclimb wrote: According to your bio you have not pushed ANY significant limits in climbing. Guess you are not a climber. If pushing the known limits of climbing is the definition OF climbing then perhaps only a few days of actual climbing have happened in the entire history of the world. Otherwise it's all climbing and limits are yours to choose and yours to challenge. Aid climbing IS climbing stupid to say it aint.
The last time I even "Ticked" a route in my bio was 2008. The last time I updated any other info in it was 2002. I read your bio. It wasn't impressive either. But I'm fairly certain you are a better climber and have done more than that.
Show me where I said aid climbing wasn't climbing?
You won't find it.
Show where I said "pushin the limits of climbing is the definition of climbing".
Again you won't find it.
Aid climbing is a fun and rewarding way to climb.
However, if you think that aid climbing is a discipline that is changing the face of climbing. You are wrong.
josh
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flamer
Nov 14, 2010, 3:48 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: You truly are nothing more than a flamer, all hot air. You know very little of what I've done, and obviously nothing of where I've been. I do not even haul 2 to 1. You are proving to be less than worth the effort to answer, so long dipshit. Bob (is that better mister delicate?) editing to add, you haven't added any value to the thread, or site, so are you any more than dead weight here? I won't check for a response as I have real life things to attend to and already know the answer.
Oh Burlesque Bobby.
You really are a little Sally aren't you?
You are honestly alittle dumb as well.
Here let me make it clear.
When I said
"Keep 2:1ing yourself up Yosemite Trade routes and telling yourself how "core" you are."
It had nothing to do with how you haul.
At least not your bags.
It was refering to the bad ass way you ascend those big routes.
I've seen you spray about going to Zion and yarding up trade routes.
I'm pretty sure you're the Bobby who sprays about himself over at supertopo as well.
Calling yourself "burly" and "extreme".
So tough.
You don't think I contributed anything to the thread or site? You're really breaking my heart here Bobby.
Truth is I used to contribute a fair bit of stuff to this site. Then it was overrun but rubes such as yourself. Which made it no longer worth it.
The thread? I thought my discussion with someone further up on Ice and Alpine was a great contribution.
You probably didn't understand it.
I eagerly await your response.....because no matter how many times you say things like;
"You are proving to be less than worth the effort to answer, so long dipshit."
and;
"I won't check for a response as I have real life things to attend to and already know the answer."
we both know that not only will you look, you can't help but respond.
Cheers Bobby, the next time I shit in a bag I'll think of you.
josh
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skiclimb
Nov 14, 2010, 3:58 PM
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flamer wrote: skiclimb wrote: According to your bio you have not pushed ANY significant limits in climbing. Guess you are not a climber. If pushing the known limits of climbing is the definition OF climbing then perhaps only a few days of actual climbing have happened in the entire history of the world. Otherwise it's all climbing and limits are yours to choose and yours to challenge. Aid climbing IS climbing stupid to say it aint. The last time I even "Ticked" a route in my bio was 2008. The last time I updated any other info in it was 2002. I read your bio. It wasn't impressive either. But I'm fairly certain you are a better climber and have done more than that. Show me where I said aid climbing wasn't climbing? You won't find it. Show where I said "pushin the limits of climbing is the definition of climbing". Again you won't find it. Aid climbing is a fun and rewarding way to climb. However, if you think that aid climbing is a discipline that is changing the face of climbing. You are wrong. josh
I think it has been a while since aid by itself pushed any new limits. It is CERTAINLY a component of many of the greatest challenges left in climbing. For example some as yet unclimbed Himalayan and other lines.
The only discipline in climbing where I ever approached the current limits was Ski-Mountaineering. However I didn't quite do anything that groundbreaking. The rest of climbing I do all types , but am mediocre at any one thing. My talent is perseverence and putting it all together to effectively get up stuff I find inspiring.
I relate way more to Harding them Robbins lol.
I do think it is a mistake to focus your climbing on beating the current best in and of a goal itself. If you are one of those rare talented and dedicated few that regularly climbs at the top level in any discipline then you will probably manage to advance the state of the art fairly naturally as a byproduct of your own personal climbing goals.
Regardless all the BS about the "cutting edge"
It is ALL climbing and it should be enjoyable at many levels.
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