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bearbreeder


Nov 15, 2010, 11:58 AM
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Re: [jayhawk70] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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if it looks and feels solid just sling it ... and dont worry about it

sure horns can break off if its poor rock ... but so cams or nuts can pull out as well if the rock is cr@p

better something than nothing ...

the classic beginner route where you sling almost every few feet is cornflakes in squamish ...

youll find youself slinging features alot in alpine


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 15, 2010, 11:59 AM)


jayhawk70


Nov 15, 2010, 4:24 PM
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Re: [pendereki] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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interesting. when i sling a horn i take note of several things 1. the solidness of the horn, no flakes, 3-4" in dia. slip angles and angle of applied force. also i was under the impression that clove hitching with a sling weakens it. i use a sling in size accordance to the size of the horn. and while i was "draping" the sling, it is doubled up, and usually small enough not to slip over the top or pull off... still crazy?


jt512


Nov 15, 2010, 4:30 PM
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Re: [jayhawk70] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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jayhawk70 wrote:
interesting. when i sling a horn i take note of several things 1. the solidness of the horn, no flakes, 3-4" in dia. slip angles and angle of applied force. also i was under the impression that clove hitching with a sling weakens it. i use a sling in size accordance to the size of the horn. and while i was "draping" the sling, it is doubled up, and usually small enough not to slip over the top or pull off... still crazy?

Like six people have told you, you should consider girth hitching the horn, rather than draping the sling over it.

Jay


currupt4130


Nov 15, 2010, 5:08 PM
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Re: [jt512] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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Or learn how to tie a one handed slip knot and save a little bit of sling length when needed.


Partner oldsalt


Nov 15, 2010, 6:50 PM
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Re: [currupt4130] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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Excellent discussion, and good consistency with an earlier thread that I started. http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I would unquestionably take a Sandrock chickenhead over a thin bridge any time. The other thread has a few recommendations of a Tri-cam in a horizontal. Any reason why not?


bearbreeder


Nov 16, 2010, 12:10 AM
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Re: [oldsalt] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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oldsalt wrote:
Excellent discussion, and good consistency with an earlier thread that I started. http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I would unquestionably take a Sandrock chickenhead over a thin bridge any time. The other thread has a few recommendations of a Tri-cam in a horizontal. Any reason why not?

id take a tri cam in that horinzontal if the rock is solid anyday ....

horn looks ok from the photo ... but looks like it might be a biatch to thread, more so than a tricam anways

the nut looks sketchy to me




jt512


Nov 16, 2010, 12:40 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
oldsalt wrote:
Excellent discussion, and good consistency with an earlier thread that I started. http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I would unquestionably take a Sandrock chickenhead over a thin bridge any time. The other thread has a few recommendations of a Tri-cam in a horizontal. Any reason why not?

id take a tri cam in that horinzontal if the rock is solid anyday ....

horn looks ok from the photo ... but looks like it might be a biatch to thread, more so than a tricam anways

the nut looks sketchy to me


Bearbrainer, you're like the the George W. Bush of rockclimbing.com: your every opinion is exactly backwards, and your command of the English language is infantile.

jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 16, 2010, 12:41 AM)


acorneau


Nov 16, 2010, 12:13 PM
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Re: [jayhawk70] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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jayhawk70 wrote:
... also i was under the impression that clove hitching with a sling weakens it.

Correct, any kind of knot weakens the material.

Looping a sling around a horn should maintain it's rated strength. However, basket hitching essentially doubles it's strength.


bearbreeder


Nov 16, 2010, 12:21 PM
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Re: [jt512] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Bearbrainer, you're like the the George W. Bush of rockclimbing.com: your every opinion is exactly backwards, and your command of the English language is infantile.

jay

still madder as a hatter mista jay? .... boooooooo ;)


bill413


Nov 16, 2010, 8:41 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Bearbrainer, you're like the the George W. Bush of rockclimbing.com: your every opinion is exactly backwards, and your command of the English language is infantile.

jay

still madder as a hatter mista jay? .... boooooooo ;)

You found a nut that you couldn't see "sketchy?" From what I can see in that photo that nut could be anywhere from total bomber to total Fantasy Island. Jay wins. (oh, yeah - "still madder as" seems to be "still mad as" in standard English.)


bearbreeder


Nov 16, 2010, 8:54 PM
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Re: [bill413] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
still madder as a hatter mista jay? .... boooooooo ;)

You found a nut that you couldn't see "sketchy?" From what I can see in that photo that nut could be anywhere from total bomber to total Fantasy Island. Jay wins. (oh, yeah - "still madder as" seems to be "still mad as" in standard English.)
looks like if that wee little part would break the entire nut would come out ... but hey if that aint a concern ...

mr. english nazi ;)


mikebee


Nov 17, 2010, 2:02 AM
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Re: [bill413] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Bearbrainer, you're like the the George W. Bush of rockclimbing.com: your every opinion is exactly backwards, and your command of the English language is infantile.

jay

still madder as a hatter mista jay? .... boooooooo ;)

You found a nut that you couldn't see "sketchy?" From what I can see in that photo that nut could be anywhere from total bomber to total Fantasy Island. Jay wins. (oh, yeah - "still madder as" seems to be "still mad as" in standard English.)

Actually, if you look in that photo, you can see that the nut is simply threaded through a hole in the rock - the entire head of the nut is visible. The strength of the placement is derived from the thin column of rock beneath the head of the nut, that looks to be no more than 2cm thick. Not knowing what kind of rock it is makes it hard to judge, but I'd definitely be preferring the slung column than the nut in that photo.


Partner j_ung


Nov 17, 2010, 6:09 AM
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Re: [mikebee] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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mikebee wrote:
bill413 wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Bearbrainer, you're like the the George W. Bush of rockclimbing.com: your every opinion is exactly backwards, and your command of the English language is infantile.

jay

still madder as a hatter mista jay? .... boooooooo ;)

You found a nut that you couldn't see "sketchy?" From what I can see in that photo that nut could be anywhere from total bomber to total Fantasy Island. Jay wins. (oh, yeah - "still madder as" seems to be "still mad as" in standard English.)

Actually, if you look in that photo, you can see that the nut is simply threaded through a hole in the rock - the entire head of the nut is visible. The strength of the placement is derived from the thin column of rock beneath the head of the nut, that looks to be no more than 2cm thick. Not knowing what kind of rock it is makes it hard to judge, but I'd definitely be preferring the slung column than the nut in that photo.

F that nut. It's a ridiculous placement no matter what the rock. The thread might be fine. There's no real way to tell without being there.


brianinslc


Nov 18, 2010, 8:09 AM
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Re: [acorneau] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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Here's a way to keep the strength up, sorta:



Girth hitch through a biner. Bomber...ha ha.


brokesomeribs


Nov 23, 2010, 2:54 PM
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Re: [brianinslc] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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brianinslc wrote:
Here's a way to keep the strength up, sorta:

[image]http://www.mountainproject.com/images/6/4/106120604_medium_a783e0.jpg[/image]

Girth hitch through a biner. Bomber...ha ha.

At the very least, I would have spun that biner to face the gate upwards to lessen the chance of it being opened by the ice if it was suddenly weighted. Also, it will get the biner out of the ice so it can't freeze shut (although it's an admittedly low-risk scenario with a wire gate).

What's more troubling is the fact that the climber girth hitched around 2 separate ice columns. If that girth is loaded, it will dramatically multiply the force, crushing the thin ice columns together. To put it in other terms, the angle between the slung pillars is approaching 180 degrees. You would never do that with 2 cams - why do it with equally suspect pillars?

This anchor would have been much better if that sling was rigged like an inverted "W" and threaded around each pillar individually to wind up with something looking similar to how a cordellete is rigged. It's hard to verbalize, but I could MS Paint something if necessary.

Oh, and Craig Luebben's research back when he wrote How To Ice Climb showed that incorporating your tools into an anchor is a pretty poor idea when other options exist. There are certainly other options here. Between the screw and the threaded icicles, that's a bomber anchor, no doubt about it. If I recall correctly, CL's data showed that an ice tool never managed to hold more than 1200 ft-lbs (i.e about 5kN) before blowing out and that was under ideal placements and directions of pull. Much lower values are expected under real world climbing circumstances. Furthermore, keep in mind that even a T-rated shaft is only required to hold 3.5kN in a 3-point bend test and the spike a paltry 2kN for an in-line pull. I don't think even a PERFECTLY placed axe can be reliably expected to hold a lead fall. Leashes aren't even rated to my knowldege, and that's what it looks like the climber clipped into here. On Cobras, the leashes are bolted with a tiny 4mm thread screw, IIRC. A sharp fall could easily pull those tools from the ice and impale them into the climber's thigh/abdomen, break the holding screws, or both.

It would have to be some utterly horrifying conditions before I incorporated my tools into a belay. I carry 10cm stubbies and pins for conditions like that.

(BTW - Brian, you've been climbing ice since before I had pubes. I'm not trying to be a ball buster or a troll. This post is more for the benefits of the n00bs who see that picture.)


patto


Nov 23, 2010, 4:36 PM
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Re: [jt512] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
Or . . . there was an obvious piece of good gear within reach of your horn.

So bizarre, this idea of preferring a nut to good natural pro.

Jay

Nuts and cams place compression forces on rocks. Slung horns place shear and bending moments (tension) on rock.

Rock is far stronger in compression than tension and shear.


climbingaggie03


Nov 23, 2010, 5:40 PM
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Re: [jayhawk70] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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I agree with what jay said earlier, if the rock is solid, then it's way preferable to sling than place, it saves gear and is bomber and multi-directional. depending on the horn/flake, sometimes a clove hitch helps, or a slip not, a piece or sling in opposition, or sometimes even just a real long sling is enough. It's good to have different tools for different situations.


brianinslc


Nov 23, 2010, 9:43 PM
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Re: [brokesomeribs] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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brokesomeribs wrote:
What's more troubling is the fact that the climber girth hitched around 2 separate ice columns. If that girth is loaded, it will dramatically multiply the force, crushing the thin ice columns together. To put it in other terms, the angle between the slung pillars is approaching 180 degrees. You would never do that with 2 cams - why do it with equally suspect pillars?

What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?

I'm trying to visualize (my first problem, I suppose) where I'm getting some type of force multiplier from my semi tensionless anchor situation. What angle, where? I'm seeing compressive force (kinda, we peed on the anchor and it froze the sling in super solid, but, that's hard to see in the photo). Force vector diagram?

Nuts (and/or cams) in opposition? I do it quite often. I recognize there can be a "pulley effect" on a piece, but, take that over shifting gear, or, upwards pull, etc.

brokesomeribs wrote:
This anchor would have been much better if that sling was rigged like an inverted "W" and threaded around each pillar individually to wind up with something looking similar to how a cordellete is rigged. It's hard to verbalize, but I could MS Paint something if necessary.

Nah, that would have snapped them off at their base. I was going for the compression rig with the girth hitch. Base of the 'cicles is thick, and, there's some force going into the cone below the icicles, too.

brokesomeribs wrote:
Oh, and Craig Luebben's research back when he wrote How To Ice Climb showed that incorporating your tools into an anchor is a pretty poor idea when other options exist.

Mostly to keep them in sight rather than lost in the deep snow or tangled in the scrub oak.

Yeah, got Chris and Craig's full report. Nice read. Thought about ditching all my ice hooks after reading that. But for being useful in moss, wood and rocky bits.

Bomber! Probably better than the short screw in the crappy ice to the right...:



Yeah, its my belay anchor. Hunk of wood stuck in bad ice. Didn't think I could get a screw in it.

brokesomeribs wrote:
I don't think even a PERFECTLY placed axe can be reliably expected to hold a lead fall. Leashes aren't even rated to my knowldege, and that's what it looks like the climber clipped into here. On Cobras, the leashes are bolted with a tiny 4mm thread screw, IIRC. A sharp fall could easily pull those tools from the ice and impale them into the climber's thigh/abdomen, break the holding screws, or both.

I dunno, he looks kinda hung over. Mostly to keep him from tipping over and falling into the void (aka scrub oak). That scrub oak can be deadly.

Of course, this was near the holidaze and he'd been partaking in quite alot of holiday cheer, so, probably not at his fightin' weight. If he tipped over I shudder to think what kind of kilo newton tonnage he'd crush that anchor with...

brokesomeribs wrote:
It would have to be some utterly horrifying conditions before I incorporated my tools into a belay. I carry 10cm stubbies and pins for conditions like that.

Well, as a back up to an anchor, stuck in the ice (they like that!) and clipped to your person, they serve at least some purpose rather than hanging them on your harness. Plus, if you fat finger taking them out of the ice, they may not take a tumble out of reach if they're tethered to you.

On a long pitch I may run out of gear. I like knowing my ice tools can at least support my body weight (!).

Great critique though!

Ice season is upon us...be safe out there.

Cheers.


donald949


Nov 30, 2010, 4:19 PM
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Re: [j_ung] slinging horns as opposed to cams or nuts [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
mikebee wrote:
bill413 wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Bearbrainer, you're like the the George W. Bush of rockclimbing.com: your every opinion is exactly backwards, and your command of the English language is infantile.

jay

still madder as a hatter mista jay? .... boooooooo ;)

You found a nut that you couldn't see "sketchy?" From what I can see in that photo that nut could be anywhere from total bomber to total Fantasy Island. Jay wins. (oh, yeah - "still madder as" seems to be "still mad as" in standard English.)

Actually, if you look in that photo, you can see that the nut is simply threaded through a hole in the rock - the entire head of the nut is visible. The strength of the placement is derived from the thin column of rock beneath the head of the nut, that looks to be no more than 2cm thick. Not knowing what kind of rock it is makes it hard to judge, but I'd definitely be preferring the slung column than the nut in that photo.

F that nut. It's a ridiculous placement no matter what the rock. The thread might be fine. There's no real way to tell without being there.

+1 on the really awful nut. It would almost certainly go some place else good in that rock.
The sling looks good to me, although as Jung notes, can't say for sure with out being there. Short of that I'm good.
The Stronghold Chickenhead is a little on the marginal side for me. Yea, I understand thats the belay for the route. It whats there to use etc.
In Josh we have slung 6-12" diameter plates for belay and pro. I like the 1" webbing for that. Total truck.

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