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hyhuu
Sep 23, 2010, 3:28 PM
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I'm interested in gettting into big wall and have been doing some readings. I heard that it's better/fast to lead in blocks instead of switching leads but I can't seem to find out why it is the case. Actually I am not exact sure in what way it is "better". The way I understand the sequence is that leader leads the pitch, fixes the rope then starts hauling while the second jugs and cleans. Wouldn't the leader get tired from leading and hauling? Why would be it better for him/her to start leading again, especially if the route has some free climbing?
Thanks
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sspssp
Sep 23, 2010, 7:15 PM
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I sometimes lead in blocks for free/day climbs. The leader is rested (instead of having just seconded) and can get into a groove. If hauling (or at least hauling a multi-day heavy pig), I wouldn't lead in blocks. If doing a big wall type route in a day (and not hauling or hauling a small pack), you could get a benefit. Even more so if the leader is willing to short fix/solo aid before the second makes it up.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Sep 23, 2010, 7:16 PM)
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climbingaggie03
Sep 23, 2010, 7:59 PM
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What he said. I think the biggest advantages are that the leader is rested and gets in the groove of being on the sharp end, as opposed to going from following to leading. I also usually have the second carry the pack.
On big wall with hauling, I probably wouldn't lead in blocks, however if you just want to put up a couple of pitches to get ahead for the next day, then I'll lead in blocks. When I did the south face of washington column, we hauled the first three pitches and then based it from there and each spent a day on the sharp end, but we only hauled a 40lb bag after the first day, so hauling wasn't a big deal.
I think most people use leading in blocks on long free climbs, for me that means climbs like royal arches and epinephrine 15-20 pitches so we'll lead like 5 pitches at a time or so, trying to work it so that we're fresh for the crux pitches. I think most people that free the nose lead in blocks as well.
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kennoyce
Sep 23, 2010, 8:33 PM
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sspssp wrote: I sometimes lead in blocks for free/day climbs. The leader is rested (instead of having just seconded) and can get into a groove. If hauling (or at least hauling a multi-day heavy pig), I wouldn't lead in blocks. If doing a big wall type route in a day (and not hauling or hauling a small pack), you could get a benefit. Even more so if the leader is willing to short fix/solo aid before the second makes it up.
In my opinion, short fixing is the biggest advantage to leading in blocks on a big wall. By short fixing, the leader can already be part way up the next pitch before the second gets to the belay.
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desertdude420
Nov 15, 2010, 6:35 PM
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Other than being faster, leading in blocks also lessens the cluster-fuch at the belays.
Especially if they are hanging belays. You need to have a zip line for sending up gear to the leader though!
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flamer
Nov 16, 2010, 3:46 PM
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desertdude420 wrote: You need to have a zip line for sending up gear to the leader though!
You can use the slack on the lead line.
Not carrying a tag line will speed you up tremendously.
Although on alot of climbs that will mean you are much more committed.
josh
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xtrmecat
Nov 17, 2010, 5:43 PM
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flamer wrote: desertdude420 wrote: You need to have a zip line for sending up gear to the leader though! You can use the slack on the lead line. Not carrying a tag line will speed you up tremendously. Although on alot of climbs that will mean you are much more committed. josh
How exactly could this even possibly work? When I lead aid, there is gear left for fall protection. How exactly is the lead line slack with the rest of the rack supposed to make it through all those little clippy thingys? Or do we just run it out for the last half a pitch so those troublesome little details do not get in the way? I don't get it.
I also usually swing leads, as there is plenty to do with both jobs, and would only save a minute amount of time by leading in blocks while aid, which I could make up by just rising the next morning the first time I stir, rather than just rest and plot the days activities. Just me though.
Burly Bob
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flamer
Nov 17, 2010, 6:40 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: flamer wrote: desertdude420 wrote: You need to have a zip line for sending up gear to the leader though! You can use the slack on the lead line. Not carrying a tag line will speed you up tremendously. Although on alot of climbs that will mean you are much more committed. josh How exactly could this even possibly work? When I lead aid, there is gear left for fall protection. How exactly is the lead line slack with the rest of the rack supposed to make it through all those little clippy thingys? Or do we just run it out for the last half a pitch so those troublesome little details do not get in the way? I don't get it.
Ok Bobby stay with me.
This obviously only works while short fixing.
The leader reachs the end of a pitch, pulls up all of the slack in the lead line and fixes the rope.
The leader then continues up the next pitch by roped soloing on the remaining slack in the lead line.
Some people use conventional roped soloing methods....some people just go on the big loop of slack....often refered too as the "pakistani death loop".
So when the second reachs the belay....they tie the gear they have cleaned off the previous pitch onto the same loop the leader is using to solo. the leader pulls up the gear and drops the loop.
The second then pulls the slack out of the leaders system and puts them back on a conventional lead belay.
Simple and easy.
By using this method you can eliminate carrying a second rope. This saves you time by not having to deal with extra weight and bulk. Plus eliminating the management of a second rope.
Obviously this is something for people doing fast and In a day ascents.
josh
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xtrmecat
Nov 17, 2010, 7:23 PM
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You may need to work on your reading comprehension there. You replied to desert Dude420, and his last statement was"You need to have a zip line for sending up gear to the leader though!" We already know how to lead solo(short fix).
Tag UP the Gear. Not Take off with no more gear(short fix), sheesh. As for your child like attempts at insulting me, please try to actually contribute, as most of the forum users are here to ask, read, learn, and contribute. The local bar is probably better suited for picking fights. We will also try to type slower so you can follow along.
Burly Bob
edit to add short fix, so you can google how the rest of the world does it, just so you will know.
(This post was edited by xtrmecat on Nov 17, 2010, 7:27 PM)
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flamer
Nov 17, 2010, 7:42 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: You may need to work on your reading comprehension there. You replied to desert Dude420, and his last statement was"You need to have a zip line for sending up gear to the leader though!" We already know how to lead solo(short fix). Tag UP the Gear. Not Take off with no more gear(short fix), sheesh. As for your child like attempts at insulting me, please try to actually contribute, as most of the forum users are here to ask, read, learn, and contribute. The local bar is probably better suited for picking fights. We will also try to type slower so you can follow along. Burly Bob edit to add short fix, so you can google how the rest of the world does it, just so you will know.
Dear Burlusque Bobby.
You really are a retard.
You question my reading comprehension...trying to say I stated how to short fix...but not how to tag UP gear....I'd ask you to reread(wait you can read right?) what I wrote.
Here I'll count it off for you (can you count?)
The ninth line down from where I started begins describing where, in the short fix system, and how you tag up the gear using the lead line.
Thus eliminating the need for a tag line.
That part of the description ends on line 11.
So about those reading skills Bobby?
Have you ever even done a big aid line IAD? Have you ever short fixed?
I doubt it.
Not even being able to understand how it's faster to lead in blocks. You strike me as the guy clawing his way up some trade route, hauling enough gear to hangout for weeks. Then acting like Johnny badass afterward.
Truth is, Bobby, you act as if you know alot but you're knowledge is limited by your ignorance.
I'm not picking fights here Bobby. But I will finish them.
josh
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xtrmecat
Nov 18, 2010, 12:05 AM
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The Op asks why it is faster to lead in blocks, and is right up front with the fact he is thinking of getting on a wall sometime, never done it. And you seem to be stuck on advice of leading off without a tag, and can use a "Pakastani death loop to tag gear, seems to me, this advice is just stupid. That's all.
This limits your short fixing to half of the rope left, dangerous when pulling up the rack. Not very sound advice to someone who is admittedly new to walls. I know I wouldn't want to be out on sketch lead, standing on a hook, and pull up and rerack while I pull double the slack needed, just to save taking a tag. Really, you are pretty set on it is the better way, aren't you?
As for your fixation on calling names, you might need to seek counseling, as it seems to really piss you off when I disagree with your seemingly helpful advice to a newby wall rat. I can look up several anger management tips for you, if you desire. I just think you take this too personal.
Routes iad wasn't even part of the OP's querry, just something that became assumed. Tags can be pretty useful(necessary actually). That was all I was stating. Pulling up the rack without one is not as straightforward as it would appear, on harder aid it just could be the stupidest thing you may try to do. Giving advice you believe to be cutting edge and the best way may suit you and your partners, but might just appear to some of us as stupid, dangerous, and mostly theory, saving nothing. Light and fast can save time, but on a wall, it can and has killed. I see no savings at all by leaving the tag at home, just potential problems.
Taking off short fixing, relegates you to what rope is left after the last pitch is led, and you suggest to limit it to half of what is left, which may be in the neighborhood of say 5, maybe even ten meters(doubtful, not too many pitches under thirty five that don't get linked(don't forget rope loss due to knots and all)) . I really do not see this as a realistic approach. Guess I am never to old to learn the "New Math".
Oh well.
Burly Bob
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flamer
Nov 18, 2010, 12:41 AM
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Bobby, you just don't have the experience to understand this stuff.
Acting like I'm posting irresponsible things concerning the OG posters original question is laughable. I was never addressing the OG poster. I was refering to where the discussion went after he posted. Discussions evolve. You should try it.
It is now painfully clear that you have never short fixed and thus don't even remotely understand.
The "pakistani death loop" is faster, but more dangerous. It is also not required to tag with the lead line.
If you fix the rope and then lead on with a grigri(or whatever) you can still protect yourself the same as you would soloing. You never have to be on the entire loop of slack. Duh.
When you are short fixing you aren't going to be more than say 20ft from the belay when your second arrives. If you're more than that #1 they need to be cleaning faster. #2 you need to stop climbing when you get to the point where you don't have enough rope to tag. It's that simple.
Linking pitchs? You don't(typically) do that when you're short fixing. It's slower.
Non of this is theory. Non of this is even cutting edge. It's simple stuff thats been used for a long time by a lot of people.
It's also not for beginners or people that don't understand advanced(well not that advance) rope work.
If you aren't 100% sure you're going to make it to the top....carry a tag line. If you are 100% sure you'll make it and something happens...learn how to improvise.
Lite and fast isn't for everyone. Obviously. Stick to vertical, slow camping Bobby.
If you think I'm more than mildly amused with you you're wrong. Anger hasn't even entered my mind.
I've purely been knocking off the low hanging fruit with you.
But keep playing the victim, it suits you.
josh
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xtrmecat
Nov 18, 2010, 2:19 AM
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Well again, I will just have to quit reading your nonsense, as it seems to just be your ranting opinion. You really do amuse some of us. You must keep us educated with all your mileage, superior skills, and such, I don't know how the rest of us beginners got along before you.
My current climbing partner is a psychologist, shall I get you a referral? You really are out of touch, and still don't have a clue as to my skills or travels, but are welcome to keep speculating, it really is funny to watch. Please keep at it though, I am sure someone out there will buy your crap as wisdom.
As usual, you seem to have taken a personal direction to someone's thread, tried to make yourself seem the superior and mighty one, and I see no reason to follow your drivel any further. I wonder how far you will get in life, considering your personality and all.
I apologize to all those who had to go along for the ride, I really try to contribute to the site, but this is just lame.
Burly Bob
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desertdude420
Nov 18, 2010, 5:11 AM
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Can't we all just get-a-bong?
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flamer
Nov 18, 2010, 5:22 AM
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xtrmecat wrote: Well again, I will just have to quit reading your nonsense, as it seems to just be your ranting opinion. You really do amuse some of us. You must keep us educated with all your mileage, superior skills, and such, I don't know how the rest of us beginners got along before you. My current climbing partner is a psychologist, shall I get you a referral? You really are out of touch, and still don't have a clue as to my skills or travels, but are welcome to keep speculating, it really is funny to watch. Please keep at it though, I am sure someone out there will buy your crap as wisdom. As usual, you seem to have taken a personal direction to someone's thread, tried to make yourself seem the superior and mighty one, and I see no reason to follow your drivel any further. I wonder how far you will get in life, considering your personality and all. I apologize to all those who had to go along for the ride, I really try to contribute to the site, but this is just lame. Burly Bob
HAHAHAHA!!!
Dear Burlusque Bobby.
You really are a Sally, A very dumb and sensitive little Sally.
You're current partner is a psychologist? Wow. Thats impressive. Do you watch Oprah every afternoon as well?
Bobby..it's not speculation when you VERY clearly don't get it. Even simple Math.
"Buy my crap as wisdom"?
Bobby(maybe I should call you Booby?) It's not my crap. I learned from others, it's theirs!
Truth is it's incredibly effective. Although to make it such you have to be able to rap your mind around it.
You've proven in this thread alone that you can not.
"You wonder how far I will get in life, considering this thread and all"?
You're really making me laugh here Booby. There are plenty of folks, alot of whom don't even know me, who are laughing right along with me. We are all laughing at YOU, Booby. FYI I've saved more lives than yours is worth.
Your "contributions" to anything other than "how do I tie in" and "what shoes should I wear" or maybe
"how do i climb a big wall the slowest and heaviest way possible" should STOP.
You've not a clue.
"As usual, you seem to have taken a personal direction to someone's thread, tried to make yourself seem the superior and mighty one, and I see no reason to follow your drivel any further"
The only person that made this personal was YOU, Booby.
I simply commented in a productive way.
You jumped in and got personal. Some of which is directly related to you getting beat up in another thread because you haven't a clue.
Rest assured if you come at me with your ignorant BS, I will take you down.
josh
(This post was edited by flamer on Nov 18, 2010, 5:29 AM)
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Kurt_Burt
Nov 18, 2010, 5:23 AM
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wow cool thread... for the OP years have passed and you should be a more efficient leader. But yes leading in blocks on a wall is faster even if not doing walls in a day. If the leader arrives at the anchor pulls up all the slack in the lead line, does the same on the haul line, gets the bag OFF the lower anchor and leaves it, takes off leading (short fixing) and the second cleans the pitch, tags up the gear on the remaining haul line (a good leader will be more then 20 ft out thats only 5-7 placements) and the second hauls the bags as they belay it is WAY faster. This also gives a person a break from leading and hauling. Works well in my book and do it often.
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csproul
Nov 18, 2010, 8:25 PM
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Bob, it seems to me that Josh merely explained why a tag line wasn't necessary to pull up gear when short-fixing. He didn't even offer an opinion as to whether it was beneficial to a beginner or not, just that it wasn't necessary. You tried to call him out, claiming he didn't know what he was talking about. Josh clearly explained how it was possible, and now that he's proven you wrong, you're back-pedaling.
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xtrmecat
Nov 18, 2010, 10:19 PM
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I can accept that he has a method that works. It wasn't straight forward with his description at first. I have not seen many pitches with much rope left, so was calling bull on leaving a tag. That's all. He has this thing to prove to me his maturity level is that of a third grader, it started in another thread. Sorry you had to experience it, too.
No problem here with being wrong, never too old to learn how someone else does things. Generally, we usually put the leader on pitches that they are good at, such as free, vs harder aid, wide, etc.. That has been the single thing to speed up walls for us. Depends on the route and pitches.
Burly Bob
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sethg
Nov 19, 2010, 3:53 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote: I think most people that free the nose lead in blocks as well.
Not to contribute to starting any more pissing matches, but I thought this was funny. People who free the nose? Did you talk to Tommy and Beth and Lynn? I guess Lynn did it in a big block of 31 pitches, when you think about it.
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csproul
Nov 19, 2010, 5:19 PM
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sethg wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: I think most people that free the nose lead in blocks as well. Not to contribute to starting any more pissing matches, but I thought this was funny. People who free the nose? Did you talk to Tommy and Beth and Lynn? I guess Lynn did it in a big block of 31 pitches, when you think about it.
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flamer
Nov 19, 2010, 8:23 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: He has this thing to prove to me his maturity level is that of a third grader, it started in another thread.
What I have is "this thing" about beating you down when you make ignorant posts and call "bull" when you've no clue.
If you continually get beat down by third graders than you really are a Sally.
josh
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xtrmecat
Nov 20, 2010, 5:05 PM
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You just can't let go can you? I admit I was wrong, and your immaturity spoke for itself, sure I threw a stone, and the others seem to be less than amused.
Burly Bob
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flamer
Nov 21, 2010, 6:39 AM
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xtrmecat wrote: You just can't let go can you? I admit I was wrong, and your immaturity spoke for itself, sure I threw a stone, and the others seem to be less than amused. Burly Bob
You admit you were wrong by hurling one last insult and you expect me to let it go? Weird.
Tell you what.
I'm not even going to insult you this time.
By pointing out the obvious, I think the point is made.
josh
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climbingaggie03
Nov 22, 2010, 5:53 AM
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sethg wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: I think most people that free the nose lead in blocks as well. Not to contribute to starting any more pissing matches, but I thought this was funny. People who free the nose? Did you talk to Tommy and Beth and Lynn? I guess Lynn did it in a big block of 31 pitches, when you think about it.
you know, you're right, I haven't talked to Lynn Hill, but Beth and Tommy are pretty friendly and full of tips if you need some.
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