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Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots?
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qwert


Nov 22, 2010, 4:53 AM
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Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots?
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Any hints/suggestions/links/infos on getting
this

onto
this

?

Which idiot though it was a good idea to simply screw the bindings to the ski, without any kind of inserts or whatever?

It probably is best if i just invest a few and get it done by a pro, but the problem is, most wont install such an old binding, so i might have to do it myself, without destroying the skis.

Also: I know that skiing with climbing boots is going to suck, so
a) i will test it quite a bit before venturing into harder terrain (given i can get the binding onto the skis)
b) i thought about ways to make the shoe stiffer for downhill. Something like a splint to strap on the boot or a modified snowboard binding comes to mind. Somehow i cant believe that i am the first to think of something like that (given the various threads on skiing in mountain boots here, and the generally high price levels for antique silvretta bindings). Anyone got any ideas?

qwert


(This post was edited by qwert on Nov 22, 2010, 4:54 AM)
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brokenankle


Nov 22, 2010, 6:42 AM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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Lou Dawson has a great set of instructions and even a drilling template on his webiste wildsnow.com

http://www.wildsnow.com/backcountry-ski-museum/silvretta-404-backcountry-skiing/silvretta-404-mount.html

Ive seen various gimmicks before for skiing shin braces and similar, but you are probably better off just taking it easy in mountaineering boots whenever possible.

Good Luck!


skiclimb


Nov 22, 2010, 9:31 AM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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It should not be too hard to find a shop that will mount those old 404 Silvrettas. They should have a waiver. At least back when I worked in shops we could if we felt like it.

Stay away from the box stores of course.

Bring/offer a 12pack and you should get good results :)


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Nov 22, 2010, 9:31 AM)


onarunning


Nov 22, 2010, 9:41 AM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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I had my Silvretta 404s mounted professionally with no problems. Might be worth looking into to see if they can do it.


desertdude420


Nov 22, 2010, 10:36 AM
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Re: [onarunning] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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Silvretta bindings + mountaineering boots = a virtually unskiable setup!
It will work to get you to the base of a route and then back to the car, but don't even dream about skiing any major descents with that gear.


onarunning


Nov 22, 2010, 11:39 AM
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Re: [desertdude420] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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desertdude420 wrote:
Silvretta bindings + mountaineering boots = a virtually unskiable setup!
It will work to get you to the base of a route and then back to the car, but don't even dream about skiing any major descents with that gear.

I have to agree with this, but I think the level of unskiability varies with the boot you have. I skied silvretta 404s and La Sportiva K4s at the ski hill last year and didn't find it that terrible. This year though, I have La Sportiva Baturas, which are a much more flexible boot, and I can barely ski the same set up at all. I wouldn't want to be in any situation in them where my skiing actually mattered.


qwert


Nov 22, 2010, 1:51 PM
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Re: [onarunning] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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I am fully aware that this setup is not going to deliver perfect downhill performance, and i am probably not going to replace my renegades with the Fritschi Freeride binding with that.

Obviously i will test it first what i can do with it, before i venture in the backcountry with it. And thats where the idea with the splint comes in. If i find a way to make them stiffer, i could probably do quite a lot with it, since i dont care about boots to much anyways. I often go skiing, and forget to put my boots into downhill mode, or forget to really close them, and it does not adversely affect my skiing.
I am just not sure wether that tells me that i am actually a really good skier, or a really bad one Crazy

qwert


onarunning


Nov 22, 2010, 2:09 PM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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If you find anything that works well as a splint post it up here. I could definitely use that.


eric_k


Nov 22, 2010, 2:17 PM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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I just started skiing I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but I read a article that Colin Haley wrote for cascadeclimbers.com where he talks about using cords connecting the tips of your skis right below your knees to stiffen up the skis while wearing climbing boots, http://cascadeclimbers.com/...-hardware-part-three this may help.


kobaz


Nov 22, 2010, 6:13 PM
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Re: [desertdude420] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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desertdude420 wrote:
Silvretta bindings + mountaineering boots = a virtually unskiable setup!
It will work to get you to the base of a route and then back to the car, but don't even dream about skiing any major descents with that gear.

I totally disagree along with onarunning. Silvretta lsv 500's (same attachment mechanism as the 404), along with vasque ice 9000 boots were my only ski setup for a while. It even got me down an occasional steep descent.


qwert


Nov 24, 2010, 2:32 AM
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Re: [eric_k] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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eric_k wrote:
I just started skiing I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but I read a article that Colin Haley wrote for cascadeclimbers.com where he talks about using cords connecting the tips of your skis right below your knees to stiffen up the skis while wearing climbing boots, http://cascadeclimbers.com/...-hardware-part-three this may help.
Sounds like an interesting idea, but i doubt that it will work.
sure, the way its described (cord to the front of the ski) will make it harder to fall backwards with a heavy backpack, but for the skiing performance to actually increase, i have to lean forward, so i also have to put on a cord to the back of the ski.

apart from the cords probably getting in the way, i doubt that it positively affect the performance of the skis, if the back constantly gets pulled upwards while skiing, totally "destroying" any tension the skiis have by default.

qwert


(This post was edited by qwert on Nov 24, 2010, 3:53 AM)


julio412


Nov 24, 2010, 3:08 AM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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Years ago both Galibier and Granite Gear sold cuffs to improve the ski-ability of mountaineering boots.
Ramer working with Mike Lowe developed a leash type setup going from the tip of the ski to just below one's knee.You might poke around eBay or something.
Also I don't agree with your thoughts regarding Ti screws; I was referring to surface area vs. depth, and yes,of course, steel screws place faster.(older post)


brokesomeribs


Nov 24, 2010, 12:09 PM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
eric_k wrote:
I just started skiing I AM NOT AN EXPERT, but I read a article that Colin Haley wrote for cascadeclimbers.com where he talks about using cords connecting the tips of your skis right below your knees to stiffen up the skis while wearing climbing boots, http://cascadeclimbers.com/...-hardware-part-three this may help.
Sounds like an interesting idea, but i doubt that it will work.
sure, the way its described (cord to the front of the ski) will make it harder to fall backwards with a heavy backpack, but for the skiing performance to actually increase, i have to lean forward, so i also have to put on a cord to the back of the ski.

apart from the cords probably getting in the way, i doubt that it positively affect the performance of the skis, if the back constantly gets pulled upwards while skiing, totally "destroying" any tension the skiis have by default.

qwert

The cords are not designed to be under constant tension. In a regular alpine ski boot, you have a rigid plastic cuff wrapping your entire calf which prevents you from tipping over backwards if your weight ever gets off your toes (which happens all the time). In a mountaineering boot, you don't have that high cuff and you will have nothing stopping you from tipping backwards. Your bindings will pre-release and you will immediately fall out of your bindings. The cords prevent that.

I have skied in the cords plenty on my approach ski setup. They're a life saver, especially in variable terrain and when skiing with a pack. FWIW, the Spantik is probably the best-skiing boot out there right now. The Batura is one of the worst (no fault of its own, it's just super flexible and designed for high end mixed climbing).

Any boot you ski in, take it out for a test ski first... maybe 3-4 miles minimum. You do this to find where you're developing blister hotspots because I guarantee you will. Manage them before you go out for a real climb.


qwert


Nov 25, 2010, 3:32 AM
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Re: [brokesomeribs] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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brokesomeribs wrote:

The cords are not designed to be under constant tension. In a regular alpine ski boot, you have a rigid plastic cuff wrapping your entire calf which prevents you from tipping over backwards if your weight ever gets off your toes (which happens all the time). In a mountaineering boot, you don't have that high cuff and you will have nothing stopping you from tipping backwards. Your bindings will pre-release and you will immediately fall out of your bindings. The cords prevent that.
I think i can understand the idea behind the front cords, and i believe that they will work against falling backwards.
However to improve the skiing, i have to lean forwards, which would necessitate a cord to the back, which would be under constant tension.

In reply to:
I have skied in the cords plenty on my approach ski setup. They're a life saver, especially in variable terrain and when skiing with a pack.
Any hints/pics on the details of your setup? Maybe i will give it a try.

In reply to:
Any boot you ski in, take it out for a test ski first... maybe 3-4 miles minimum. You do this to find where you're developing blister hotspots because I guarantee you will. Manage them before you go out for a real climb.
Yeah, thats the plan. I found it out the hard way that my normal touring setup isnt meant for long stretches of horizontal Pirate



10 to 20 cm on the mountain already.
The precipitation the next few days will probably come down as snow. I hope theres enough for a testdrive soon.


(This post was edited by qwert on Nov 25, 2010, 3:32 AM)
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qwert


Dec 1, 2010, 7:34 AM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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So i tried skiing with my "new" setup for a bit.

It definitely is not unskiable, but everything steeper than about 20 to 30 is really hard, and ends mostly in a fall.
And while i did not fall on the lower angle stuff, i probably did not look graceful at all Crazy

I guess that would get a bit better if i mount it to some new skis. At the moment i still have it on the skis it came with, that are too long and dont have any sidecut.
However they are rockin some awfull 80s neon colors, a computer manufactured base and a racing edge (whatever that might be) and seem to be endorsed by Reinhold Messner, so i at least get a stile bonus for them ...

So i just have to figure out if its really just the skis (i just have to try them with my real ski boots and see how they handle with proper boots), or if it is indeed the boots, and if so, figure out something to attach to the boots to make them stiffer for downhill.

for uphill and flat, going in normal boots rocks!
It probably is not as good as a uphill centric dynafit set, or a proper cross country tele set, but much better than my downhill centric Touring setup. If i figure out something to make them a bit more bearable for downhill, this might be a good setup for going distances.

On the already mentioned wildsnow.com site, they also have another article about the 404
where they say the following about the safety mechanism:
wildsnow.com wrote:
It is readily available on the used market and makes an excellent approach binding for use with mountaineering boots (to prevent injury with such use we recommend not latching your heels down as softer climbing boots will not reliably actuate the safety release.)
Anyone an idea what they could mean with that?
Simply adjusting the binding to lower values as one would with a "proper" alpine setup?
Not fitting the binding to thight on the boot?
Or using it as a tele binding?

The latter theoretically sounds somewhat like a good idea, but i doubt that the binding will like it too much if it is constantly used as a tele binding. Or should it easily withstand such a continued abuse?

qwert


(This post was edited by qwert on Dec 1, 2010, 7:35 AM)


skiclimb


Dec 1, 2010, 10:39 AM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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Lowering the release setting is a good idea. Mountaineering boots dont create the release forces that Hightop rigid ski boots do.

The hinge on the 404 is decent but they dont tele very well as you will be on a very high tip-toe with the trailing ski. Makes steering the trailer very tricky and forces you to completely ski the outside ski perfectly or crash ..

heh


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Dec 1, 2010, 10:41 AM)


qwert


Dec 1, 2010, 1:10 PM
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Re: [skiclimb] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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skiclimb wrote:
Lowering the release setting is a good idea. Mountaineering boots dont create the release forces that Hightop rigid ski boots do.
i was also tending towards that, since that seemed to make sense anyways.

In reply to:
The hinge on the 404 is decent but they dont tele very well as you will be on a very high tip-toe with the trailing ski. Makes steering the trailer very tricky and forces you to completely ski the outside ski perfectly or crash ..

heh
I dont tele very well too, so that sounds like a perfect match Cool
I tried it a few times with my fritschi freeride, and it worked surprisingly well (on rather low angle stuff though), so i guess the silvretta with the lower joint could even work a tad better. Still not sure about wether that will kill the binding on the long term or not.

qwert


hafilax


Dec 1, 2010, 2:12 PM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
skiclimb wrote:
Lowering the release setting is a good idea. Mountaineering boots dont create the release forces that Hightop rigid ski boots do.
i was also tending towards that, since that seemed to make sense anyways.

In reply to:
The hinge on the 404 is decent but they dont tele very well as you will be on a very high tip-toe with the trailing ski. Makes steering the trailer very tricky and forces you to completely ski the outside ski perfectly or crash ..

heh
I dont tele very well too, so that sounds like a perfect match Cool
I tried it a few times with my fritschi freeride, and it worked surprisingly well (on rather low angle stuff though), so i guess the silvretta with the lower joint could even work a tad better. Still not sure about wether that will kill the binding on the long term or not.

qwert
I don't think those bindings aren't designed to tele. Good chance you'll break them due to the torque at the pivot. If you need to edge downhill I think it's best to have the heel locked.


qwert


Dec 2, 2010, 12:10 AM
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hafilax wrote:
I don't think those bindings aren't designed to tele. Good chance you'll break them due to the torque at the pivot. If you need to edge downhill I think it's best to have the heel locked.


qwert


gunkiemike


Dec 3, 2010, 4:16 PM
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Re: [qwert] Mounting ski bindings? / Skiing in mountaineering boots? [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
wildsnow.com wrote:
It is readily available on the used market and makes an excellent approach binding for use with mountaineering boots (to prevent injury with such use we recommend not latching your heels down as softer climbing boots will not reliably actuate the safety release.)
Anyone an idea what they could mean with that?

I think they simply mean "don't latch the heel piece".

I just mounted 404's on heavy touring skis for mostly flat approaches to ice climbs. I don't expect to do any snazzy downhill turning, just basic survival snowplows/stems/step turns, as one does with lightweight 3 pin gear. So, to save a bit of weight, I didn't even mount the heel pieces on the skis. I figured I'd need a block of something to locate the rearmost part of the binding, to minimize side-to-side play (just like any other binding system for touring). Here's a couple pics of what I did. Haven't used it yet (notice the GRASS?) The blocks are cut from a hockey puck - tough durable, easy to cut/drill.






(This post was edited by gunkiemike on Dec 9, 2010, 4:50 PM)


bopamirs


Dec 30, 2010, 9:45 PM
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any interest in selling the heel pieces? I am working with Afghan and Tajik youth at the University of Central Asia in Khorog Tajikistan on mountaineering, skiing, etc.. and 2 pairs of silveretta 400 bindings with Mt. Hagan skis were just donated to us for our classes. However, one pair did not come with heel pieces.

Thanks


gunkiemike


Jan 2, 2011, 8:33 AM
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bopamirs wrote:
any interest in selling the heel pieces?

I will keep them until I have thoroughly tried out the modification. If this set up doesn't work for me, I'll sell the bindings and would absolutely need the heel pieces to do that.


gunkiemike


Jan 15, 2011, 7:42 PM
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bopamirs wrote:
any interest in selling the heel pieces?

The setup seems to work just fine. So I'll sell you the heel pieces, brakes, crampons, and mounting screws for $50 (plus shipping).


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