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kachoong


Nov 19, 2010, 8:18 AM
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PAS - lense vs sensor, what features to sacrifice?
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So, I'm looking for a great PAS for the wifey. It's not necessarily for climbing but more for travel (so it needs to be fairly small) and, more importantly, for getting quality images with manual controls. I'm not too geeky with camera specs but have been looking around and reading up.

It seems that you're paying for sensor size, in particular the 1/1.7" in contrast to the smaller 1/2.5". It also seems for most cameras that you do sacrifice, in most cases, zoom. Examples: Canon S95 and Panasonic DMC-LX5. One question I have is how much zoom would you sacrifice for the larger PAS sensor if it's a good zoom you would like to have (ie 5x and up)? Some have better zoom, like the Nikon P7000 (7.1x). Is a 3.8x zoom with a larger sensor still great for subjects at a distance (can you still get quality after cropping?)

Also, it looks like you can get 1/2.5" sensors in CMOS, which I've read obtains images faster (in a lot of cases 10f/s, better noise immunity and low-light ability). Is it worth considering a camera with the CMOS if not going for a camera with a 1/1.7" sensor? Example: the Samsung TL350. The Sony HX5V looks decent for being a CMOS but it sacrifices for low f (f3.5-f5.5) and the screen sux.

Now there looks like there are decent PAS with 1/2.5" CCD sensors that could be a good option. Like the Panasonic DMC ZS7 (12x zoom, 25mm and 6400 ISO but only has f3.3), Canon SX210IS (14x zoom but only f3.1, sucky screen and 0.7f/s) and Samsung HZ35W (15x zoom, 24mm and great screen but only f3.2)

I've sorted and eliminated cameras by features but I'd like to narrow down by opinion also. The features I'd love to get though are:

Aperture at f2.8 or better
Wide angle 28mm or better
ISO of 3200 or better
Decent screen (or viewfinder if some have them)
Zoom of 5x or longer (this is of debate)
Shutter speeds of 30s or more and 1/2000 or faster (preferable)
No heavier than about 400g
Also don't want to spend a ton... I guess up to 400 would get me most of them, especially if I find a sale.

Basically, convince me to convince the wifey that it's not the size of the zoom that matters it's what you can do with it that counts. Heh!


kennoyce


Nov 19, 2010, 8:38 AM
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Re: [kachoong] PAS - lense vs sensor, what features to sacrifice? [In reply to]
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Really it all depends on how you plan on using the camera. If you are wanting to take shots in low light situations, then sensor size is of upmost importance. If you are going to be taking mostly shots in good light then the sensor size isn't all that important.

As far as sensor type goes, CMOS is certainly a better option than CCD if you can find a camera with CMOS that fits your requirements.

Personally if I were looking for a point and shoot, I would be looking for zoom range rather than sensor size. The reason for this is that I want a p&s for versatility rather than image quality. If I want IQ I'll bust out the DSLR (don't get me wrong, in good light most modern p&s's will have good IQ even with a small sensor). Also just IMO, it is almost always better to frame the shot correctly the first time than to crop it later.

I think that most people who are just looking for good snapshots from a p&s would be much happier with a high zoom range than a larger sensor (most people wouldn't even notice the difference between two p&s's with different size sensors IMO).

Oh, and look for a camera with a fast aperture so that you can keep the ISO as low as possible in low light situations.


JasonsDrivingForce


Nov 19, 2010, 8:07 PM
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Re: [kachoong] PAS - lense vs sensor, what features to sacrifice? [In reply to]
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You should be asking yourself what shots will she be missing if she used a fixed focal length lens. Then what shots would she be missing if she used a slow F3.3 or higher super zoom lens.

My guess is that she will probably end up getting super blurry and unusable pictures indoors and just slightly unsharp pictures do to cropping outdoors.

Basically, you can always crop with todays cameras because they cram so many pixels on the sensor. There is nothing you can do to help a slow lens with an ultra tiny sensor.


kachoong


Nov 22, 2010, 6:31 AM
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Re: [kennoyce] PAS - lense vs sensor, what features to sacrifice? [In reply to]
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Thanks for the advice guys.

kennoyce wrote:
Really it all depends on how you plan on using the camera. If you are wanting to take shots in low light situations, then sensor size is of upmost importance. If you are going to be taking mostly shots in good light then the sensor size isn't all that important.

.....

Oh, and look for a camera with a fast aperture so that you can keep the ISO as low as possible in low light situations.

So, sensor size is more important than a low f aperture in low light conditions - or do they work off each other? If I could get a camera with an f2.2 or f2.4 with a 1/2.5" sensor would that be better than a 1/1.7" sensor with apertures from, say f2.8? It looks like almost all the larger sensor cameras actually have better than f2.8 anyway.


kennoyce wrote:
Personally if I were looking for a point and shoot, I would be looking for zoom range rather than sensor size. The reason for this is that I want a p&s for versatility rather than image quality. If I want IQ I'll bust out the DSLR (don't get me wrong, in good light most modern p&s's will have good IQ even with a small sensor). Also just IMO, it is almost always better to frame the shot correctly the first time than to crop it later.

Interesting... and I agree. For now though I think the purpose is just to find a good p&s for traveling (to include decent indoor stuff), since we don't want to bust out the dollars for a DSLR (in the next year or two we will).


JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
You should be asking yourself what shots will she be missing if she used a fixed focal length lens. Then what shots would she be missing if she used a slow F3.3 or higher super zoom lens.

My guess is that she will probably end up getting super blurry and unusable pictures indoors and just slightly unsharp pictures do to cropping outdoors.

Basically, you can always crop with todays cameras because they cram so many pixels on the sensor. There is nothing you can do to help a slow lens with an ultra tiny sensor.

So what you're saying is go for something with a small f or a large sensor? And sacrifice a long zoom?

It looks like I can go up to about 5x or 7x and still have a decent lens and smaller CMOS sensor (i.e. f less than 2.8 and 26mm or wider). I think this may be the best compromise without spending more than 400 bucks.


(This post was edited by kachoong on Nov 22, 2010, 6:39 AM)


kennoyce


Nov 22, 2010, 7:00 AM
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Re: [kachoong] PAS - lense vs sensor, what features to sacrifice? [In reply to]
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kachoong wrote:
So, sensor size is more important than a low f aperture in low light conditions - or do they work off each other? If I could get a camera with an f2.2 or f2.4 with a 1/2.5" sensor would that be better than a 1/1.7" sensor with apertures from, say f2.8? It looks like almost all the larger sensor cameras actually have better than f2.8 anyway.

They don't really work off each other, but they are both very important in low light situations. In low light situations, you obviously want to let as much light hit the sensor as possible, this is where the large aperture comes in. Even when using a large aperture, low light situations will necessitate cranking up the ISO, this is where a large sensor comes in. The larger the sensor is (for an equivalent number of pixels), the less noise it will produce giving you a cleaner, more detailed image. As you mentioned though, a camera with a larger sensor will generally also have a decent aperture due to the fact that it will be a more expensive camera.

The real question is how good do you need the low light capabilities to be. No p&s will take great photos in low light situations, they will always be noisy, grainy, and lacking in detail. Almost any decent p&s will take great photos in good lighting. Having a large sensor and a large aperture will improve the low light capabilities a little bit but not that much. That is just a problem with p&s cameras in general.

kachoong wrote:
It looks like I can go up to about 5x or 7x and still have a decent lens and smaller CMOS sensor (i.e. f less than 2.8 and 26mm or wider). I think this may be the best compromise without spending more than 400 bucks.

That does sound like a good compromise. You will still have some zoom range, you get a fast aperture for low light, and you get a CMOS sensor to help keep noise down a bit.


kachoong


Nov 22, 2010, 12:23 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] PAS - lense vs sensor, what features to sacrifice? [In reply to]
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Appreciate the info... thanks!

I've narrowed my choices down to eight cameras (in no order and pros and cons are relative to other cameras in this list):

Nikon P7000; Pro's - 7x zoom, f2.8, 28mm wide, CCD 43.32mm2 sensor, great screen, 720vid, ISO 3200 (6400 boost), 1/4000-60sec. Con's - 1.3 f/sec, price high at 425

Canon S95; Pro's - f2.0, 28mm wide, CCD 43.32mm2 sensor, ok screen, 720vid, ISO 3200 (12800 boost). Con's - 3.8x zoom, 1.9 f/sec, 1/1600-15sec, price little high at 370

Panasonic LX5; Pro's - f2.0, 24mm wide, CCD 51.46mm2 sensor, ok screen, 720vid, ISO 3200 (12800 boost), 6 f/sec, 1/4000-60sec. Con's - 3.8x zoom, price high at 420

Samsung TL350; Pro's - 5x zoom, f2.4, 24mm wide, CMOS 28.06mm2 sensor, good screen, 1080vid, ISO 3200, 10 f/sec, 1/2000-16sec, price ok at 320. Con's - small sensor size but it's CMOS

Panasonic FX700; Pro's - 5x zoom, f2.2, 24mm wide, CMOS 28.06mm2 sensor, 1080vid, 10 f/sec, 1/2000-60sec, price ok at 320. Con's - small sensor size but CMOS, screen bad, ISO 1600 but has 6400 boost

Sony WX5; Pro's - 5x zoom, f2.4, 24mm wide, CMOS 28.52mm2 sensor, ok screen, 1080vid, ISO 3200, 10 f/sec, price good at 270. Con's - small sensor size but CMOS, 1/1600-2sec

Samsung HZ35W; Pro's - 15x zoom, 24mm wide, great screen, 720vid, ISO 3200, 1/2000-16sec, price ok at 320. Con's - f3.2, small CCD sensor, no continuous shoot

Canon G12; Pro's - 5x zoom, f2.8, 28mm wide, CCD 43.32mm2, ok screen, 720vid, ISO 3200, 1/4000-15sec. Con's - 2 f/sec, price very high at 480


(This post was edited by kachoong on Nov 23, 2010, 12:47 PM)


styndall


Nov 22, 2010, 12:38 PM
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You should also consider the aperture as you zoom. Do any of these camera have a constant aperture throughout the zoom range? I don't know if any point and shoots advertise that feature, but it'd be really, really nice.


kachoong


Nov 22, 2010, 12:50 PM
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styndall wrote:
You should also consider the aperture as you zoom. Do any of these camera have a constant aperture throughout the zoom range? I don't know if any point and shoots advertise that feature, but it'd be really, really nice.

Most of them will give stats like f2.4-5.5.... which I'm guessing is the best aperture at wide vs full zoom. Is that what you mean? Most are in the f5+ region at full zoom. The ones with aperture in the f3 to 5 range at full zoom are generally of low zoom anyway.


kennoyce


Nov 22, 2010, 1:03 PM
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styndall wrote:
You should also consider the aperture as you zoom. Do any of these camera have a constant aperture throughout the zoom range? I don't know if any point and shoots advertise that feature, but it'd be really, really nice.

I highly doubt that any p&s has a constant aperture throughout its zoom range, but given the fact that the diameter of the aperture opening is the focal length divided by the f-number, a larger max aperture will correlate to a larger aperture diameter throughout the zoom range as long as they have the same minimum focal length.

To the OP. The list looks good, I don't know much about samsung, but the other manufacturers listed generally make very good p&s cameras.


redlude97


Nov 22, 2010, 1:17 PM
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PAS!?!?!?! Kill the noob! No specialized gear! oh wait wrong POS....point and shoots are normally abbreviated P&S Tongue


kachoong


Nov 22, 2010, 1:19 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
PAS!?!?!?! Kill the noob! No specialized gear! oh wait wrong POS....point and shoots are normally abbreviated P&S Tongue

Hah! Awesome! Maybe I need to buy two P&S... for redundancy, you know!


JasonsDrivingForce


Nov 22, 2010, 2:00 PM
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kachoong wrote:
Appreciate the info... thanks!

I've narrowed my choices down to eight cameras (in no order and pros and cons are relative to other cameras in this list):

Canon S95; Pro's - f2.0, 28mm wide, CCD 43.32mm2 sensor, ok screen, 720vid, ISO 3200 (12800 boost). Con's - 3.8x zoom, 1.9 f/sec, 1/1600-15sec, price little high at 370

Get the S95. Remember the best camera for every situation is the one you actually have with you. The S95 is the best camera in that list that will fit in your pocket. Nuff said.


evanwish


Nov 23, 2010, 11:35 AM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
kachoong wrote:
Appreciate the info... thanks!

I've narrowed my choices down to eight cameras (in no order and pros and cons are relative to other cameras in this list):

Canon S95; Pro's - f2.0, 28mm wide, CCD 43.32mm2 sensor, ok screen, 720vid, ISO 3200 (12800 boost). Con's - 3.8x zoom, 1.9 f/sec, 1/1600-15sec, price little high at 370

Get the S95. Remember the best camera for every situation is the one you actually have with you. The S95 is the best camera in that list that will fit in your pocket. Nuff said.

Yeah, the G12 isn't going to fit in a pocket too well. I also wouldn't link it in with the PAS category, but it would be my favorite out of the above listed due to more manual settings. (We have the old Canon G2 from 1999 or 2000 which cost a whopping $1000 back then. )


JasonsDrivingForce


Nov 23, 2010, 11:53 AM
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evanwish wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
kachoong wrote:
Appreciate the info... thanks!

I've narrowed my choices down to eight cameras (in no order and pros and cons are relative to other cameras in this list):

Canon S95; Pro's - f2.0, 28mm wide, CCD 43.32mm2 sensor, ok screen, 720vid, ISO 3200 (12800 boost). Con's - 3.8x zoom, 1.9 f/sec, 1/1600-15sec, price little high at 370

Get the S95. Remember the best camera for every situation is the one you actually have with you. The S95 is the best camera in that list that will fit in your pocket. Nuff said.

Yeah, the G12 isn't going to fit in a pocket too well. I also wouldn't link it in with the PAS category, but it would be my favorite out of the above listed due to more manual settings. (We have the old Canon G2 from 1999 or 2000 which cost a whopping $1000 back then. )

The S95 is essentially a G12 in a smaller package. The S95 does lack some of the external control buttons and dials that the G12 has though. However, the S95 zoom is only marginally smaller than the G12 zoom.

Otherwise they are basically the same camera. I would never buy the G12 over the S95 even if the G12 was cheaper because the S95 is actually a pocket-able camera.


kachoong


Nov 23, 2010, 12:20 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
evanwish wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
kachoong wrote:
Appreciate the info... thanks!

I've narrowed my choices down to eight cameras (in no order and pros and cons are relative to other cameras in this list):

Canon S95; Pro's - f2.0, 28mm wide, CCD 43.32mm2 sensor, ok screen, 720vid, ISO 3200 (12800 boost). Con's - 3.8x zoom, 1.9 f/sec, 1/1600-15sec, price little high at 370

Get the S95. Remember the best camera for every situation is the one you actually have with you. The S95 is the best camera in that list that will fit in your pocket. Nuff said.

Yeah, the G12 isn't going to fit in a pocket too well. I also wouldn't link it in with the PAS category, but it would be my favorite out of the above listed due to more manual settings. (We have the old Canon G2 from 1999 or 2000 which cost a whopping $1000 back then. )

The S95 is essentially a G12 in a smaller package. The S95 does lack some of the external control buttons and dials that the G12 has though. However, the S95 zoom is only marginally smaller than the G12 zoom.

Otherwise they are basically the same camera. I would never buy the G12 over the S95 even if the G12 was cheaper because the S95 is actually a pocket-able camera.

Well, I've already out-ruled the Canon WX5 because I found out it has no manual controls. Duh! Also decided against the G12 due to price and size, which also makes the P7000 and LX5 borderline too.

Funny, but I never realized the Panasonic LX5 has a lens cover. Wouldn't that be kinda annoying for a p&s? After reading about the Samsung TL350 I'm kinda intrigued about it. How is the video controls on the S95? Can you zoom while filming or take stills while filming?

Another question I had was the importance of ISO. Is it great to have ISO capabilities above 1600 and how does aperture and sensor size come into play there?


JasonsDrivingForce


Nov 23, 2010, 12:35 PM
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What is the Canon WX5? I have never heard of that camera. I assume you mean the S95? If so then that camera has very good manual controls thanks to its nifty control ring.

Also, most compact small sensor cameras like the S95, G12, and LX5 are not really useful above ISO 800. No matter what you do you are not going to get good ISO sensitivity out of a small sensor with more than about 3 megapixels. Some people actually go back and buy the old Canon G2 camera because it had better ISO 400 performance than today's other small sensor cameras and it had a wonderful F2.0-F2.5 lens.

The Samsung camera is a 1/2.3" sensor. That will never be as good as the 1/1.7" sensor in the Canon S95. Trust me you are not going to find a better camera that will fit in your pants pocket than the S95.


kennoyce


Nov 23, 2010, 12:37 PM
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kachoong wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
evanwish wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
kachoong wrote:
Appreciate the info... thanks!

I've narrowed my choices down to eight cameras (in no order and pros and cons are relative to other cameras in this list):

Canon S95; Pro's - f2.0, 28mm wide, CCD 43.32mm2 sensor, ok screen, 720vid, ISO 3200 (12800 boost). Con's - 3.8x zoom, 1.9 f/sec, 1/1600-15sec, price little high at 370

Get the S95. Remember the best camera for every situation is the one you actually have with you. The S95 is the best camera in that list that will fit in your pocket. Nuff said.

Yeah, the G12 isn't going to fit in a pocket too well. I also wouldn't link it in with the PAS category, but it would be my favorite out of the above listed due to more manual settings. (We have the old Canon G2 from 1999 or 2000 which cost a whopping $1000 back then. )

The S95 is essentially a G12 in a smaller package. The S95 does lack some of the external control buttons and dials that the G12 has though. However, the S95 zoom is only marginally smaller than the G12 zoom.

Otherwise they are basically the same camera. I would never buy the G12 over the S95 even if the G12 was cheaper because the S95 is actually a pocket-able camera.

Well, I've already out-ruled the Canon WX5 because I found out it has no manual controls. Duh! Also decided against the G12 due to price and size, which also makes the P7000 and LX5 borderline too.

Funny, but I never realized the Panasonic LX5 has a lens cover. Wouldn't that be kinda annoying for a p&s? After reading about the Samsung TL350 I'm kinda intrigued about it. How is the video controls on the S95? Can you zoom while filming or take stills while filming?

Another question I had was the importance of ISO. Is it great to have ISO capabilities above 1600 and how does aperture and sensor size come into play there?

Even with a DSLR I try to keep the ISO at 1600 or below for the most part. Don't get me wrong, having a higher ISO can allow you to get photos that you wouldn't be able to otherwise, but on a P&S they certainly won't be good quality photos. If having a super grainy, noisy low detailed photo is better than no photo at all, then a higher ISO will allow you to get the photo. Just be aware of the tradeoff.


styndall


Nov 23, 2010, 12:38 PM
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Most of the point and shoot cameras around are going to be equally crappy when shooting at higher ISOs. The more modern the sensor and processing capability, the better the high ISO performance, but I would bet on getting noisy photos at 1000 or above, and really noisy photos above 1600.

If you get some good noise reduction software (Noise Ninja or Lightroom 3, for instance), you can get remarkably clean shots out of noisy photos.


kachoong


Nov 23, 2010, 12:41 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
What is the Canon WX5? I have never heard of that camera. I assume you mean the S95? If so then that camera has very good manual controls thanks to its nifty control ring.

Also, most compact small sensor cameras like the S95, G12, and LX5 are not really useful above ISO 800. No matter what you do you are not going to get good ISO sensitivity out of a small sensor with more than about 3 megapixels. Some people actually go back and buy the old Canon G2 camera because it had better ISO 400 performance than today's other small sensor cameras and it had a wonderful F2.0-F2.5 lens.

The Samsung camera is a 1/2.3" sensor. That will never be as good as the 1/1.7" sensor in the Canon S95. Trust me you are not going to find a better camera that will fit in your pants pocket than the S95.

Nah, I meant this one... which doesn't have manual controls.


JasonsDrivingForce


Nov 23, 2010, 12:41 PM
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Oh you meant the Sony WX5. Yea it looks great on paper and it does have some nice video capabilities. However, its smaller sensor will never compete with the Canon S95.


kachoong


Nov 23, 2010, 12:43 PM
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kennoyce wrote:
kachoong wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
evanwish wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
kachoong wrote:
Appreciate the info... thanks!

I've narrowed my choices down to eight cameras (in no order and pros and cons are relative to other cameras in this list):

Canon S95; Pro's - f2.0, 28mm wide, CCD 43.32mm2 sensor, ok screen, 720vid, ISO 3200 (12800 boost). Con's - 3.8x zoom, 1.9 f/sec, 1/1600-15sec, price little high at 370

Get the S95. Remember the best camera for every situation is the one you actually have with you. The S95 is the best camera in that list that will fit in your pocket. Nuff said.

Yeah, the G12 isn't going to fit in a pocket too well. I also wouldn't link it in with the PAS category, but it would be my favorite out of the above listed due to more manual settings. (We have the old Canon G2 from 1999 or 2000 which cost a whopping $1000 back then. )

The S95 is essentially a G12 in a smaller package. The S95 does lack some of the external control buttons and dials that the G12 has though. However, the S95 zoom is only marginally smaller than the G12 zoom.

Otherwise they are basically the same camera. I would never buy the G12 over the S95 even if the G12 was cheaper because the S95 is actually a pocket-able camera.

Well, I've already out-ruled the Canon WX5 because I found out it has no manual controls. Duh! Also decided against the G12 due to price and size, which also makes the P7000 and LX5 borderline too.

Funny, but I never realized the Panasonic LX5 has a lens cover. Wouldn't that be kinda annoying for a p&s? After reading about the Samsung TL350 I'm kinda intrigued about it. How is the video controls on the S95? Can you zoom while filming or take stills while filming?

Another question I had was the importance of ISO. Is it great to have ISO capabilities above 1600 and how does aperture and sensor size come into play there?

Even with a DSLR I try to keep the ISO at 1600 or below for the most part. Don't get me wrong, having a higher ISO can allow you to get photos that you wouldn't be able to otherwise, but on a P&S they certainly won't be good quality photos. If having a super grainy, noisy low detailed photo is better than no photo at all, then a higher ISO will allow you to get the photo. Just be aware of the tradeoff.

Yeah, I had pretty much figured the claimed ISO and "ISO boost" feature above 1600 wouldn't be so flash on any p&s. Your info is pretty much what I figured.


kachoong


Nov 23, 2010, 12:44 PM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] PAS - lense vs sensor, what features to sacrifice? [In reply to]
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
Oh you meant the Sony WX5. Yea it looks great on paper and it does have some nice video capabilities. However, its smaller sensor will never compete with the Canon S95.

Ooops! Yep... that's the one. I guess I buggered up in my list.


kachoong


Nov 23, 2010, 12:45 PM
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Re: [styndall] PAS - lense vs sensor, what features to sacrifice? [In reply to]
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styndall wrote:
Most of the point and shoot cameras around are going to be equally crappy when shooting at higher ISOs. The more modern the sensor and processing capability, the better the high ISO performance, but I would bet on getting noisy photos at 1000 or above, and really noisy photos above 1600.

If you get some good noise reduction software (Noise Ninja or Lightroom 3, for instance), you can get remarkably clean shots out of noisy photos.

I really appreciate the advice and info, fellas. It's something I don't just want to rush out and buy... would rather hear stories from all angles.


JasonsDrivingForce


Nov 23, 2010, 7:04 PM
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Re: [kachoong] PAS - lense vs sensor, what features to sacrifice? [In reply to]
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It appears that dpreview is listening to you. Here is their recent assessment of a few of the better compact cameras.

http://www.dpreview.com/...highendcompactgroup/


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Nov 23, 2010, 7:05 PM)


Arrogant_Bastard


Dec 3, 2010, 9:33 AM
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Re: [kachoong] PAS - lense vs sensor, what features to sacrifice? [In reply to]
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Looks like I'm late to the party, but figured I'd put one more vote in for the S95. I've used a couple friends S90 and S95 and was impressed with the indoor/low light results - for a PAS. I intend on picking one up before my next trip to supplement my dSLR.

A small point that I didn't see mentioned, though most started referring to it as zoom "range". It's just that, it says nothing about the maximum zoom capabilities of the camera. Theoretically a 5X and 15X could have the same maximum zoom, the 15X would just have a lot wider angle. Which obviously is better if all other things are equal, but I've talked to a lot of people that were giving up on a certain model camera that had say 7.5X but other features they liked because another had 10X and maximum zoom was an important parameter for them.

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