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Trailmix
Nov 23, 2010, 10:12 PM
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Hello all
I started climbing 8 months ago, my bf has taken me every weekend climbing, sport and trad routes. I recently, last month, started leading trad routes with him. I started on the easy routes 5.4's and I'm working my way up. But ever since I started leading I've been miserable with him. Every weekend we go up the crag, get the rope out get ready to climb and we don't even climb, we fight, and we fight and we fight. It's so embarassing because climbers usually seem so happy and carefree and thats how we use to be but not since I started leading.
I've realized this past month that he has become so controlling it has become unbearable. Everything needs to be his way, the rope has to be flaked when he wants it flaked, I should put the rack on the way he has it otherwise i'm not an organized leader, but OK fine it's his gear and his rope so whatever he can have that his way, but does he need to be so damn bossy about everything? I understand that I'm new to leading, but he has already taught me alot on the ground and I've already lead a few routes so I feel comfortable enough on the easy routes by now.
These are just a few examples:
If he thinks I need to go left I HAVE to go left, if he says stop put pro in now and if I say there is no where to put he says come down, you're not listening... I'm like seriously??! Last week I was at the crux of a 5.5 (don't laugh it was akward!) and I went a little higher then I should have, he tells me to downclimb I respond by saying I can't, I dont see where to put my feet, when we get to the ground he tells me I was being a bad leader and that I'm not ready to lead. He has this idea of what a good leader is and I dont think I can ever live up to his standards. I've told him all this once before and when I did he told me he's quitting climbing!!
I've tried to be the bigger person, listen to everything he wants me to do and once we're done with the route I feel miserable because I didn't go the way I wanted to, I didn't put the pro in where I wanted to, it doesn't even feel like I'm leading...I just feel like a puppet.
If anyone else has experienced something like this please help, maybe I should just be more appreciative and just suck it up but I don't know, some guidance would be really appreciated.
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notapplicable
Nov 24, 2010, 1:34 AM
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Trailmix wrote: Hello all I started climbing 8 months ago, my bf has taken me every weekend climbing, sport and trad routes. I recently, last month, started leading trad routes with him. I started on the easy routes 5.4's and I'm working my way up. But ever since I started leading I've been miserable with him. Every weekend we go up the crag, get the rope out get ready to climb and we don't even climb, we fight, and we fight and we fight. It's so embarassing because climbers usually seem so happy and carefree and thats how we use to be but not since I started leading. I've realized this past month that he has become so controlling it has become unbearable. Everything needs to be his way, the rope has to be flaked when he wants it flaked, I should put the rack on the way he has it otherwise i'm not an organized leader, but OK fine it's his gear and his rope so whatever he can have that his way, but does he need to be so damn bossy about everything? I understand that I'm new to leading, but he has already taught me alot on the ground and I've already lead a few routes so I feel comfortable enough on the easy routes by now. These are just a few examples: If he thinks I need to go left I HAVE to go left, if he says stop put pro in now and if I say there is no where to put he says come down, you're not listening... I'm like seriously??! Last week I was at the crux of a 5.5 (don't laugh it was akward!) and I went a little higher then I should have, he tells me to downclimb I respond by saying I can't, I dont see where to put my feet, when we get to the ground he tells me I was being a bad leader and that I'm not ready to lead. He has this idea of what a good leader is and I dont think I can ever live up to his standards. I've told him all this once before and when I did he told me he's quitting climbing!! I've tried to be the bigger person, listen to everything he wants me to do and once we're done with the route I feel miserable because I didn't go the way I wanted to, I didn't put the pro in where I wanted to, it doesn't even feel like I'm leading...I just feel like a puppet. If anyone else has experienced something like this please help, maybe I should just be more appreciative and just suck it up but I don't know, some guidance would be really appreciated. |
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notapplicable
Nov 24, 2010, 1:40 AM
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If you are ON LEAD, you are IN THE LEAD. If you want his advice, then he should offer it but you are not obliged to take it. It's that simple.
It may not be the answer you are looking for but you probably need to find other climbing partners. He might be the best BF in the world but that doesn't mean he is the right partner for you. The relationship dynamic is just too different to expect that to be the case. It certainly can be, but often isn't.
Edited to add - This site has a decent "Partners" section, you should check it out. I found one of my best rope mates thru it.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Nov 24, 2010, 1:44 AM)
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lena_chita
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Nov 24, 2010, 2:48 AM
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Very often, things don't go well when you try to teach your significant other. There is too much emotional investment and too much riding on the outcome. There is a reason why most teachers opt not to have their own kids in their classroom, if possible. Not saying that it couldn't be done, I see couples like yours doing just fine all the time, but it is something to keep in mind...
Yes, he sounds very controlling. I am finding it hard to believe that he is this controlling in climbing, and not behaving the same way off the rock. However, if that it truly the case, if this only comes out when you are leading, then I wonder how much if your assessment of the situation is correct. Maybe on the route where he is telling you to go left, he knows that going right results in a 5.9 variation, and you are not ready for it, so he is keeping you on route by telling you where to go. Maybe you are not assessing the situation correctly, missing a gear placement and climbing into the groundfall territory, and he is trying to keep you safe.
It's a fine line... I certainly had situations where my more experienced partners have told me to downclimb, to keep left instead of going where I was heading, to place gear where I initially did not see a placement, to rack some things in a different way. But they managed to do it in a way that was helpful yet stopped short of making me feel like a stupid child.
Talking to him about how you feel (bring it up off the rock, not when you are about to head up and tensions are already running high) and asking him to let you make your own mistakes and figure things out on your own in situations where it is not life-and-death might help.
Going with a larger group of friends might help, too, bc people are often more likely to keep their tempers and nagging in check with others present.
If the above things don't help, finding another climbing partner might be the answer.
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nessie
Nov 24, 2010, 9:39 AM
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This story rings a bell...I had a similar experience with one of my climbing partners although he wasn't my boyfriend. When I read your story I think, ok, your man is trying to help and he might just be very stressed about the responsibility of keeping you safe. He wants you to learn. Unfortunately his teaching method doesn't come over as well as it should. In my case I ended up having one too many arguments with my climbing partner and decided it was wisest to move on and find more people to climb with so that rather than getting stressed when climbing I was able to continue enjoying myself and learning at the same time! In your case that might not be an option if you want to continue dating him so perhaps it would be good to talk to him about it.And maybe go climbing with a group of people together with your guy so that you can climb with other people as well as him on the same day...
(This post was edited by nessie on Nov 24, 2010, 9:44 AM)
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danabart
Nov 24, 2010, 12:59 PM
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You will find empathetic people on RC.Com, and having someone to discuss relationships with is important. But the problem will only get resolved when you sit down and talk with him. It might be difficult and upsetting, but it's the only way. Good luck, I hope things work out.
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Trailmix
Nov 24, 2010, 3:13 PM
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lena_chita wrote: Very often, things don't go well when you try to teach your significant other. There is too much emotional investment and too much riding on the outcome. There is a reason why most teachers opt not to have their own kids in their classroom, if possible. Not saying that it couldn't be done, I see couples like yours doing just fine all the time, but it is something to keep in mind... Yes, he sounds very controlling. I am finding it hard to believe that he is this controlling in climbing, and not behaving the same way off the rock. However, if that it truly the case, if this only comes out when you are leading, then I wonder how much if your assessment of the situation is correct. Maybe on the route where he is telling you to go left, he knows that going right results in a 5.9 variation, and you are not ready for it, so he is keeping you on route by telling you where to go. Maybe you are not assessing the situation correctly, missing a gear placement and climbing into the groundfall territory, and he is trying to keep you safe. It's a fine line... I certainly had situations where my more experienced partners have told me to downclimb, to keep left instead of going where I was heading, to place gear where I initially did not see a placement, to rack some things in a different way. But they managed to do it in a way that was helpful yet stopped short of making me feel like a stupid child. Talking to him about how you feel (bring it up off the rock, not when you are about to head up and tensions are already running high) and asking him to let you make your own mistakes and figure things out on your own in situations where it is not life-and-death might help. Going with a larger group of friends might help, too, bc people are often more likely to keep their tempers and nagging in check with others present. If the above things don't help, finding another climbing partner might be the answer.
He is this way when we are not climbing also, but I'm pretty easy going so I don't mind it as much. It's just when it comes to climbing that I hate it, because I use to love climbing SO much but lately I've been sad and dreading the weekend.
You are right, I know he is only trying to help me and point me in the right direction but say I don't go left immediately when he wants me to, if I look around and see what my options are then he gets angry and decides on the ground he's not climbing anymore because I'm not listening to him and that i've ruined the weekend.
If I suggest climbing with other people he says I need to learn from him because he doesn't trust anyone else teaching me. I feel like I'm suffocating 
Well, thank you all for your input. It is appreciated, I think I'm just going to reread what everyone wrote to me, I find all your comments very comforting. Thanks again
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jeepnphreak
Nov 24, 2010, 5:04 PM
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Trailmix wrote: He is this way when we are not climbing also, but I'm pretty easy going so I don't mind it as much. It's just when it comes to climbing that I hate it, because I use to love climbing SO much but lately I've been sad and dreading the weekend. You are right, I know he is only trying to help me and point me in the right direction but say I don't go left immediately when he wants me to, if I look around and see what my options are then he gets angry and decides on the ground he's not climbing anymore because I'm not listening to him and that i've ruined the weekend. If I suggest climbing with other people he says I need to learn from him because he doesn't trust anyone else teaching me. I feel like I'm suffocating Well, thank you all for your input. It is appreciated, I think I'm just going to reread what everyone wrote to me, I find all your comments very comforting. Thanks again
Looks like you need to sit back and do some sole searching and figure out if your BF is really the guy you want to be climbing with. There is not need for him to be yelling at you like that. Climbing should be an enjoyable experience. Also if he does not trust any one else for you to climb with is bull shit you can climb with whom ever you want to, there are lot of good safe climbers out there. check out the partner finder section of this forum. I have found a few great climber partners now friends off of mountainproject.com. Step up and take control.
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petsfed
Nov 24, 2010, 5:36 PM
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Trailmix wrote: He is this way when we are not climbing also, but I'm pretty easy going so I don't mind it as much. It's just when it comes to climbing that I hate it, because I use to love climbing SO much but lately I've been sad and dreading the weekend. You are right, I know he is only trying to help me and point me in the right direction but say I don't go left immediately when he wants me to, if I look around and see what my options are then he gets angry and decides on the ground he's not climbing anymore because I'm not listening to him and that i've ruined the weekend. If I suggest climbing with other people he says I need to learn from him because he doesn't trust anyone else teaching me. I feel like I'm suffocating Well, thank you all for your input. It is appreciated, I think I'm just going to reread what everyone wrote to me, I find all your comments very comforting. Thanks again
Emphasis mine.
DTMFA.
If he's like this all the time, and you just blow it off when you're not off the ground, then he's attempting to control you. It will only get worse.
Find a new climbing partner, find a new boyfriend, or both.
Part of the reason my girlfriend and I can climb together is that we have separate climbing partners and can climb with other people when our goals are wildly divergent (although lately, that hasn't been the case). Like your situation, I taught my girlfriend most everything she knows about climbing (I met her in a belay clinic I was teaching). However, any situational control I exert is through route selection.
I've been climbing long enough to know that creating emotional turmoil in the leader is a lousy way to keep them uninjured. In principle, yes, I'll shout up corrections, but I can't remember a time where I had to, since most of these things can wait until she's on the ground or when I meet her at the belay.
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erisspirit
Nov 24, 2010, 5:46 PM
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+1 to all that has been said
A controlling person will only get more controlling. Being laid back doesn't mean you need to put up with that. Wouldn't you love to be with and climb with someone you respects your opinion and decisions?
I'm SURE there are MANY more skilled leaders than this BF that can teach you... and CAN be trusted.
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Trailmix
Nov 24, 2010, 6:03 PM
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erisspirit wrote: Wouldn't you love to be with and climb with someone you respects your opinion and decisions.
Yes, I would love that, and thats all I'm asking for. If he thinks a route is dangerous for whatever reason I listen and accept his decision because I know he is more experienced. All I'm asking for is a little patience and understanding, but I think that's asking alot from him unfortunately.
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happiegrrrl
Nov 24, 2010, 7:07 PM
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Trailmix wrote: ...he gets angry and decides on the ground he's not climbing anymore because I'm not listening to him and that i've ruined the weekend. If I suggest climbing with other people he says I need to learn from him because he doesn't trust anyone else teaching me....
Has the dude REALLY said you have ruined the weekend?
If yes, it's likely he is the problem and things are likely not about to get better, but worse.
It's impossible to judge whether you actually are ready to lead of course, but since he is the one who put you on the sharp end in the first place - if he didn't feel you were ready, he should NOT have done so.
Alas, now you have tasted it and you like it - and generally that means...you are ready to lead. At least with competent partners. Not saying you should hook up with some random person who says they have lead belayed before and take the sharp end.
But being a baby and "going home?" Please.
Start saving and begin piecing together your own rack.
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kiwiprincess
Nov 24, 2010, 8:44 PM
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After witnessing an accident my husband Got really scared for me. And freaked me out, started insisting I came down, if I hesitated or came back to the rest ( i had been climbing 10 years). It sucked. We Changed to bike riding or hiking if things got stressful rather than carring on unhappy, and started back with a group so we couldn't get into it in public...Now it's good again
My husband is my main climbing partner and we get on awesome(mostly). However Climbing, or More the chance of falling ,can be really stressful.
On occasion I tell him to "shut the F up" when he calls out advice. You should try "be quiet... I need to focus" or merely ignore him (this gets easier with practice)
Some things have to be called out if your foot is behind the rope if you are too run out and may hit a ledge or the ground.
This will be best talked about before you go climbing say you do appreciate and understand his concern however it is really distracting and you would like him to let you onsight with out the advice unless it is one of the safety issues above.
If you can't sort it out go with a group. Or head out with a different partner. Some couples just can't climb together. I know one happily married couple(15years) that can't climb together without fighting. They just accept it and hang out in the evenings, lunch etc and climb with other friends rather than ruin their otherwise good relationship.
It is not OK for him to be angry at you for Having your own opinions.
If he is controlling..Remember you deserve hapiness. Dump him if he makes you unhappy
(This post was edited by kiwiprincess on Nov 24, 2010, 9:02 PM)
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uhoh
Nov 25, 2010, 8:53 AM
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Trailmix wrote: I feel miserable
Trailmix wrote: He is this way when we are not climbing also I feel like I'm suffocating
These phrases stood out among your posts.
Your boyfriend, based on what I've read in your posts, is a domineering asshole. It sounds like it is not only time to find a new climbing partner, but a new partner in general.
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blueshrimp
Nov 25, 2010, 4:09 PM
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Trailmix wrote: Every weekend we go up the crag, get the rope out get ready to climb and we don't even climb, we fight, and we fight and we fight. It's so embarassing because climbers usually seem so happy and carefree and thats how we use to be but not since I started leading. I've realized this past month that he has become so controlling it has become unbearable. Everything needs to be his way, the rope has to be flaked when he wants it flaked, I should put the rack on the way he has it otherwise i'm not an organized leader, but OK fine it's his gear and his rope so whatever he can have that his way, but does he need to be so damn bossy about everything?
Wow, this sounds really bad. If I were you I'd sit down and have a long chat with your boyfriend and sort out a couple of things between you two, for instance:
1. Do you see him as your boyfriend first, or climbing partner first? What about him? Does he see you as a climbing partner he's training first, or as a girlfriend first?
If you two decide you're each other's boyfriend/girlfriend first, then perhaps you should dedicate some weekends to being boyfriend/girlfriend and not climbing partners. Do some romantic things together. Don't let climbing define all of your relationship.
Also, young men need to understand that in a loving relationship, there's a lot of give and take, a lot of doing what the other person enjoys, a lot of being kind, gentlemany, and supportive.
Berating, criticizing, ordering, nit-picking is not being supportive and loving.
I fell in love with my climbing partner and we often go climbing and even though he is a much better climber than I he has NEVER berated me for how I coil a rope or made me feel uncomfortable while climbing in any way. A relationship in which your significant other makes you uncomfortable, sad, makes you cry, or makes you unhappy in any way, especially EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND is NOT normal, and is not healthy.
You should talk to your boyfriend or think for yourself whether he is loving in other aspects of the relationship enough to be worth keeping, and if so, then figure out how to incorporate this lovingness into your climbing, or go climbing with someone else.
It is up to you and him to decide if climbing is something you do together to spend time together (like going to a movie), or something you do to each achieve some personal goal, in which case it is best to go climbing with your own respective climbing partners.
In the case of my boyfriend and I, our egos are not tied to climbing or how hard we climb, so when we climb together the point is to BE together, not climb hard or climb this much or at that grade or in this way. We don't have so much riding on the climb that if we abandon the climb due to rain or lack of ability or whatever we feel the day or the weekend is ruined. Even on a bad climbing day (couldn't climb, didn't have equipment, bad weather, etc), it is still an awesome day because we were with each other.
You want to find yourself a boyfriend where this is true every day with him regardless of what you're doing together on that day, be it climbing or not.
Failing all that, you could try showing him this website for some tips on how to be a gentleman:
An English Gentleman
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technical_master
Nov 25, 2010, 9:06 PM
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Next time I think you should 'accidently' fumble with your largest hex (or perhaps a cam) and drop it...on to your boyfriend's head.
Failing that. next time you are about to climb, take your boyfriend to one side...
...and leave him there. And then go and climb with someone who actually likes climbing. Clearly your boyfriend doesn't.
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wonderwoman
Nov 26, 2010, 2:02 AM
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There are WAY too many red flags here, sister. He is controling (berating & directing you when you most need to be focusing), abusive (ruining his weekend? Sound like he's ruining your climbing experience), and he wants to isolate you (prevent you from seeking out other partners).
I hate to say it, but you should ditch him now so you won't need a restraining order later.
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guangzhou
Nov 26, 2010, 4:03 AM
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I think it's time to move on from both the relationship and the partnership. The guy seems a bit insecure and like a control freak to me.
My wife and I have different climbing goals. I've been climbing over twenty years, she's on her third. I know that she doesn't like certain things, so when we climb together, I avoid those things.
I love doing long routes in the back cuntry, my wife hates long approaches, so I avoid routes with long approaches when we climb together.
Sometimes, when she's leading, I simply walk away to avoid giving unwanted beta.
I hate to say this, but you climbing partner doesn;t sound like much fun to climb with. I bet he sees you being able to leading as a threat. Now, you'll be independent enough to climb what you want, when you want with who you want instead of having to rely on him to climb.
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Kartessa
Nov 26, 2010, 8:02 PM
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guangzhou wrote: Sometimes, when she's leading, I simply walk away to avoid giving unwanted beta.
Uh oh...
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Trailmix
Nov 30, 2010, 3:18 PM
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just finished reading all the new responses, and thank you all for taking the time to read my posting.
I just came back from a 3 day climbing trip to the gunks with my bf/partner. Before we went I had a long chat with him on Wednesday night, pretty much he doesn't think there is anything wrong with the way he is teaching so I didn't know what else to do. I was pretty nervous about going with him this weekend, but I went anyway since this could be the last weekend before it gets too cold. Unfortunately, I didn't lead anything mainly because I wasn't in the mood, but also I was a little nervous about ruining the weekend, it was going well and I didn't want to chance it by creating an argument but, it would have been nice to lead.
Thanks again all for your help, it is truly appreciated and I'm going to consider all the comments the next time I lead something with him.
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justroberto
Nov 30, 2010, 3:47 PM
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Trailmix wrote: Unfortunately, I didn't lead anything mainly because I wasn't in the mood, but also I was a little nervous about ruining the weekend...
The way you describe your climbing dynamic makes it seem like you know something is fundamentally wrong with the relationship but won't admit it to yourself. Your description makes you seem like some passive, obedient girlfriend and this guy seem like a raging asshole feeding on your meekness. If this is really the case, you guys have a way bigger issue than climbing together.
Since we don't know you or him, talk to your friends - what do they think of him? What would they suggest you do if he acted like this every time you were driving your own car/doing your own work/cooking your own dinner, and so on?
Do you really want to spend all your time from here on out worrying on whether or not you'll "ruin the weekend" somehow? If not, tell him to stop being an asshole. If he continues, it's time to move on.
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wonderwoman
Nov 30, 2010, 4:55 PM
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What's wrong with this picture?
Trailmix wrote: but also I was a little nervous about ruining the weekend, it was going well and I didn't want to chance it by creating an argument but, it would have been nice to lead.
You have to hold yourself back from leading so that you don't ruin his weekend? Do you not have the right to have a good leading experience or expand yourself as a climber?
I don't even know you, but can tell you that you deserve better. Anybody deserves better than this.
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lena_chita
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Nov 30, 2010, 5:14 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: What's wrong with this picture? Trailmix wrote: but also I was a little nervous about ruining the weekend, it was going well and I didn't want to chance it by creating an argument but, it would have been nice to lead. You have to hold yourself back from leading so that you don't ruin his weekend? Do you not have the right to have a good leading experience or expand yourself as a climber? I don't even know you, but can tell you that you deserve better. Anybody deserves better than this.
+1
Sounds likie things are good as long as you act meek, go along with his rules and don't do anything to challenge his authority.
Can you live with this long-term? Are you going to pick and choose, which weekends/weekdays/months/years to "ruin", and which ones to keep peaceful?
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petsfed
Nov 30, 2010, 6:50 PM
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If you're not willing to press the issue with him, then there's nothing to be done. Eventually, you'll quit climbing, which will suit him fine; he doesn't have to worry about you any longer.
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Trailmix
Nov 30, 2010, 6:51 PM
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Quit climbing, heck no! It's what keeps me feeling alive!
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