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Beginner aid questions

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milesenoell

Dec 2, 2010, 1:38 PM
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Beginner aid questions Report this Post Average: (0 ratings)	Can't Post

So, I'm just getting started doing so aid climbing and I was curious:

1) if anyone tries to keep a dedicated aid rack (separate from their trad rack). I don't even have the $ to get a complete trad rack, so it's all wishful thinking, but I was curious what people out there do.

and 2) I keep hearing about how easy it is to break Dyneema daisy chains with relatively short falls. Has a daisy ever actually failed on anyone while doing "normal" aiding?

Edit:
OK maybe I should specify: I have followed the ridiculous daisychain vs PAS vs Chain reactor threads enough to know that people have lots of strong opinions on this subject. I'm not looking for your opinions, just an A&I report if it exists.

As far as I can tell, it's not too hard to break a daisy in the lab, but it never seems to happen in reality, and no I'm not talking about blowing a bar-tacked pocket.

(This post was edited by milesenoell on Dec 2, 2010, 1:49 PM)

majid_sabet

Dec 2, 2010, 1:42 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (2 ratings)	Can't Post

I want to reserve my seat here

potreroed

Dec 2, 2010, 2:26 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (0 ratings)	Can't Post

1. No. Your aid rack is going to be your trad rack plus hooks, beaks, rurps and pitons. You'll also need a hammer, aiders (3 or 4), jumars, pulleys.

2. No. Never had a problem with daisy chains or PAS.

moose_droppings

Dec 2, 2010, 2:46 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (0 ratings)	Can't Post

milesenoell wrote:

Yes, I've got a separate aid rack and a trad rack, plus one other for fixing up top roping. It's mostly just a way to keep a lot of my gear handy, and I've got a ton of it. Some times I may grab a piece or two of off one rack on to the other if I know in advance it's really needed, but for the most part they're ready to go by themselves.

I've never broken a daisy in 4 years of my long and industrious aid career. Laugh

Forget the all the hoopla, for aiding, just use a daisy.

dugl33

Dec 2, 2010, 3:24 PM
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Re: [potreroed] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (0 ratings)	Can't Post

potreroed wrote:

1. No. Your aid rack is going to be your trad rack plus hooks, beaks, rurps and pitons. You'll also need a hammer, aiders (3 or 4), jumars, pulleys.

2. No. Never had a problem with daisy chains or PAS.

Just to clarify a lot of trade routes don't need any of this. If the route has a C rating, especially C1 or C2, you can (should?) leave the pins and hammer off the gear list, or take a hammer and a small selection in case fixed gear is broken or ripped. For a lot of routes you could just aggregate your rack and your buddy's rack and maybe add some offset nuts and rps.

Check the topo and also ask around to confirm the gear required for a particular route.

coastal_climber

Dec 2, 2010, 4:28 PM
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Re: [dugl33] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (1 rating)	Can't Post

I've got all my aid hardware seperate from my trad rack, and just add cams and such to my pack when im going aiding.

You won't break a daisy testing a aid piece.

vinnie83

Dec 16, 2010, 9:15 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (0 ratings)	Can't Post

Not sure if there has ever been a real world failure of a dyneema sling, but I know several people who have taken falls directly onto them while aiding and the sling was alright. Even more impressive is when the fall is on an ancient looking head.

lumineferusother

Dec 31, 2010, 3:19 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (1 rating)	Can't Post

Buy dedicated carabiners for your aid stuff so that when you're ready to do a route that has aid sections on it, at your aid stuff to your trad rack as you need. If you're going to be doing a long and burly route that's prob not going to be a clean one, invest in a big wall gear sling and maybe a big-wall specific seat harness. Some say you don't need it but the extra gear loops and wide/padded waist belts will you keep you happy and reasonably comfortable at the end of the day.

Also, if you're really worried about daisy chains breaking, invest in some adjustable daisies. Yates makes a hell of a pair. I have their adjustable daisies with screamers semi-permanently girth hitched to my harness for both clean and aid routs. If you do multi-pitch anything they're indispensable!

vinnie83

Dec 31, 2010, 4:51 PM
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Re: [lumineferusother] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (0 ratings)	Can't Post

Adjustable daisies are great for aiding, but keep in mind they are significantly weaker than a standard nylon daisy chain.

flamer

Jan 4, 2011, 11:47 AM
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Re: [vinnie83] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (0 ratings)	Can't Post

vinnie83 wrote:

Adjustable daisies are great for aiding, but keep in mind they are significantly weaker than a standard nylon daisy chain.

I know of 2 cases where Adjustable Daisys broke in standard aid falls.

#1 a good friend of mine snapped a Yates ADJ. in zion.
A hook popped and he fell onto the ADJ. that was attached to a bolt. The daisy snapped in 2.

#2 PTPP snapped a Metlious ADJ on the first pitch of WOS?? He was injured because of it.
There is more info out there concerning that one.

josh

sungam

Jan 4, 2011, 11:53 AM
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Re: [lumineferusother] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (0 ratings)	Can't Post

lumineferusother wrote:

Also, if you're really worried about daisy chains breaking, invest in some adjustable daisies. Yates makes a hell of a pair. I have their adjustable daisies with screamers semi-permanently girth hitched to my harness for both clean and aid routs. If you do multi-pitch anything they're indispensable!

While I think I know what you're saying (you can take in slack so the chances of falling onto the daisy are smalled) those easydaisys can, as has been said, break. I think core-tron broke one but I seem to recall it being Zion, which makes me think it was either not him or not Zion since he hasn't done any walls in Zion.

epic_ed

Feb 2, 2011, 10:04 PM
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Re: [flamer] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (0 ratings)	Can't Post

flamer wrote:

vinnie83 wrote:

Adjustable daisies are great for aiding, but keep in mind they are significantly weaker than a standard nylon daisy chain.

Yeah, Pete broke his ankle on Sheep Ranch. 2nd rivet of the first pitch, I believe.

Keep in mind this simple principle -- daisy's are for moving from piece to piece. It is NOT wise to consider them as a critical link to your safety. The rope, back up knots, your harness, and the sling/webbing you use to attach to an anchor are all essential gear that cannot fail. If you're relying on an adjustable daisy to keep you safe you're eventually going to end up disappointed. Or dead.

Full strength nylon or dyneema daisy's can be used to connect yourself safely to the anchor, but can still snap during a static fall. So, again, best not to consider them as part of your critical safety systems. One down side to dyneema daisy's-- even though they are stronger you may not like the sudden jolt at the end of the fall. They are less likely to break but they have very little stretch and that fall factor gets transfered directly to your harness. I've got a buddy who dropped onto one a few years ago and wrenched his back. He's still all jacked up from it.

flamer

Feb 6, 2011, 1:31 PM
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Re: [epic_ed] Beginner aid questions [In reply to] Report this Post Average: (0 ratings)	Can't Post

"epic_ed wrote:

One down side to dyneema daisy's-- even though they are stronger you may not like the sudden jolt at the end of the fall. They are less likely to break but they have very little stretch and that fall factor gets transfered directly to your harness.

Sorry Ed thats just bad information.

Dyneema/spectra Daisy's are MORE likely to break. Because they don't stretch. This has been documented repeatedly on these forums and others.
Use Nylon daisy chains!!

josh