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possum2082
Dec 13, 2010, 1:29 PM
Post #26 of 43
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roadside is definitely not a splitter.
what are you talking about?
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whiskeybullets
Dec 13, 2010, 3:49 PM
Post #27 of 43
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Standard RRG trad rack for most people is doubles of fingers through fists. If you're a BD owner this would be .3 to 4. Then add a set of nuts and micro-cams. This will get you up 70% of the routes you'll want to do.
For your rack, I'd suggest the following;
Add two BD .3's. Add one ea of BD .4-3. Add two #4's. Forget the Hexes. Forget the tri-cams. Add a single set of micro cams. I'm impartial to Master Cams vs. C3s at the Red, but I LOVE aliens, so I'd buy those if you can find them.
So here is a caveat: If you can find aliens, I'd say buy those through yellow (black, blue, green, yellow), and forget about the BD .3s. That will be tough though. It will be much easier to buy the BD .3 and then go with either C3s or TCUs or Master Cams that are smaller. Any of these will work in the Red, and everyone has their opinion which is the best.
The money you save by NOT buying hexes and tricams will be spent on a 3rd #1 2, & 3 BD Camalot. I call this the girlfriend rack. With 3 BDs in the hand range, you can go climbing with your girlfriend (who has no rack of her own), and get up 85% of the RRG trad lines.
There are a few lines in the RRG where tricams and hexes are superior to cams. This accounts for approximately .01% of the cracks. So buy them if you find a killer deal, or find them on the side of the road or something like that.
For the next 10% of lines, you'll need the big stuff. This is BD 5 & 6, and maybe some bros. Given the cost of this gear, I'd seriously suggest finding out if you even like wide crack climbing before buying it. I haven't bought a new big cam in my life because you're always seeing people sell them after the find out how hard off-width really is.
The remaining 5% of routes protect best w/ 4 of the same cam. I'm thinking rebar, andromeda strain, crack attack, etc. You can get up these w/ triples, but I like having quads for the onsite attempts. My suggestion here is climb with someone who also has a rack.
To critique jrathfon: you have more gear than is needed for a solo ascent of the Nose on El Cap. I'm starting to think you have stock in BD and are trying to earn some dividends.
(This post was edited by whiskeybullets on Dec 13, 2010, 3:50 PM)
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jrathfon
Dec 13, 2010, 4:32 PM
Post #28 of 43
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whiskeybullets wrote: To critique jrathfon: you have more gear than is needed for a solo ascent of the Nose on El Cap. I'm starting to think you have stock in BD and are trying to earn some dividends.
However you basically said what I said, absolutsugarsmurf!! You're identity has been outed.
And I said trips in the hands in an idealized world, I have a full double rack, and climb with friends (ahem, maybe I can't call you that). Besides, I don't have trip aliens, that's just greedy.
The gist of this is, doubles are a good onsite (edit: general cragging) rack in the red. Trips are nice, and quads are great for the splitters (climb with friends). Buy (but borrow first) big gear if you are interested in the wyde. Don't bother with tricams for the Red, although they are pimp in other areas.
(This post was edited by jrathfon on Dec 13, 2010, 4:36 PM)
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jrathfon
Dec 13, 2010, 4:34 PM
Post #29 of 43
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possum2082 wrote: roadside is definitely not a splitter. what are you talking about?
way to nitpick on one trivial part of my post. the point was that trips are nice on some routes. a 5.7/5.8 leader will find 3 yellows nice on roadside. andromeda is a dihedral and rebar might as well be a face climb... but you didn't question those...
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possum2082
Dec 13, 2010, 6:47 PM
Post #30 of 43
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if you knew they weren't splitters, why did you say they were?
but, yeah...ive definitely used 3 yellows on roadside.
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jrathfon
Dec 13, 2010, 6:54 PM
Post #31 of 43
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possum2082 wrote: if you knew they weren't splitters, why did you say they were? but, yeah...ive definitely used 3 yellows on roadside.
again, trivial. the first thirty feet of roadside is uniform yellow crack and it takes more yellows further up. rebar can take 4 green aliens/0.3 BD's. andromeda eats 2's and 3's even though it's a dihedral. some of our very nice lines are very uniform in size. we don't have many parallel sided indian creek splitters cutting a face in twain, so i chose to stretch the term a bit. nuances that really just don't matter to the argument that having trips is nice.
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toboredtosleep
Dec 13, 2010, 7:14 PM
Post #32 of 43
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jrathfon wrote: Nuts: You have enough nuts. Curve nuts are crap, the 3 large brassy offsets are quite nice in our rock and I find myself going to them more than standard BD aluminums in that size. In most of our rock, nuts smaller than ~ a BD #4 typically don't hold much, there are occassional spots of harder rock, but general I look for large nut placements. Small cams: 3 lobe micro cams are sh!te in our rock, I've seen/had ~ 6-7 blow out, and have heard of probably 7 or 8. The typical mode of failure is they crunch the rock, slide, jam like a nut onto the cam stops and shear the cam stops, sometimes without the last step. I prefer aliens: more bite, softer lobe material and more redundant (4 lobes). Since these aren't available I'd go with the mastercams equivalent to a blue, green, and yellow alien. General suggestion: most of the really great lines in the red (subjective of course) are the splitter cracks. andromeda strain, crack attack, rebar, inhibitor, roadside, oberon, etc. thus, you need a lot of hand pieces. Our typical rack (granted split between a few people) that gets taken to the crag is a full double rack to #4, trips from 0.75-2 and a #5. There are some cracks that take more, some take less. A great rack for andromeda is trip 2's and 3's and one 0.5, 0.75. Crack attack is trip or quad 1's, trip 2's and a 3. What I am getting at is that doubles in the mid sizes, specifically #1 and #2, are what you will place 20 times over compared to a blue alien or a #4 brassie.
I noticed that in the few times I've been trad climbing in the red that it is actually pretty hard to find small nut placements. But still one set of BDs seems light on the passive gear.
I'm definitely going to pick up the MasterCam as an alternative for the Aliens. I would love for the company to be purchased and the Quality Control methods reworked. Would love a set of them.
I probably won't get into off-widths, yet at least. Going to stick to the fingers through fist.
Any recommendations on lightweight wiregates for cams? My BDs are slung on neutrinos which I know are not the lightest anymore.
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jrathfon
Dec 13, 2010, 7:27 PM
Post #33 of 43
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i have neutrino's just cause of the color coding.
i'm a big fan of the wild country heliums for notchless wire gates. i carry a few oz's for light wiregates on draws.
and the wild country neon keylock screwgate was the lightest locker i could find. the mammut element is also another light locker.
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toboredtosleep
Dec 13, 2010, 7:29 PM
Post #34 of 43
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Is it worth just getting the 00-3 Mastercam set? Just to cover the same range as the blue through yellow alien I'm already looking at sizes 0-3 on the Master cam.
(This post was edited by toboredtosleep on Dec 13, 2010, 7:29 PM)
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jrathfon
Dec 13, 2010, 7:34 PM
Post #35 of 43
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toboredtosleep wrote: Is it worth just getting the 00-3 Mastercam set? Just to cover the same range as the blue through yellow alien I'm already looking at sizes 0-3 on the Master cam.
I only have direct experience with aliens, ask whiskeybullets about the mastercams, from what I've heard and seen people like 'em. For free at the Red, blue through yellow or red aliens is the good range. Black is quite small for free climbing, expecially with our softer rock, not saying the black alien isn't good in free climbing, just I'd be hesitant placing it whilly-nilly at the Red.
That 00 mastercam would sure come in handy in aid, so it would depend on your ultimate goals whether or not it'd be worth it for you. But if I were you, I'd concentrate on doubles before even a blue alien, nuts can be placed in that range, and the moderate climbs typically don't require much small gear.
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toboredtosleep
Dec 13, 2010, 7:37 PM
Post #36 of 43
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Ok, will do. I've just found a 22% off deal on Master Cams. Don't really see sales on cams very often.
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jrathfon
Dec 13, 2010, 7:40 PM
Post #37 of 43
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As for nuts, I carry essentially 4-11 BD, doubles from 4-8, some of these are offset brassies of equivalent size. I can name only a few routes in recent memory where I've even bothered with a decent number of nuts: where lizards dare, green eggs and ham, synchronicity, and .... central scrutinizer, i probably couldn't name another nut eating climb with my memory. So really, I think you could get buy with a single set pretty easily, double up in the key sizes later, focus on double mid range cams.
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esander4
Dec 13, 2010, 11:52 PM
Post #38 of 43
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toboredtosleep wrote: Ok, will do. I've just found a 22% off deal on Master Cams. Don't really see sales on cams very often.
You don't? Cam sales are about as common as they come. If you're planning on expanding your horizons and climbing in places with really small cam placements, then absolutely the 00-3 set would be worth it. But you can do better than 22 percent off (still pretty good though), usually about once a week you can find a specific mastercam for about 43 bucks a piece. Honestly you don't have to buy the set to get the discount. Look in Altrec Outlet or sign up for EMS email discounts (Every once in a while they'll have a 20 percent off a full priced item offer. Buy a single cam with it). So look for discounts to purchase the 0-3 individually, then buy the 00 separately if you need it. You'll still be saving just as much, probably more.
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toboredtosleep
Dec 14, 2010, 2:40 AM
Post #39 of 43
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Well, at least I don't see sales often on the BDs. I've only every seen the Master Cams at 43$ for a #5. So 46$ across the board for any piece is pretty good.
lol, perhaps a better statement is I don't see sales ever on the stuff I'm looking for.
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esander4
Dec 14, 2010, 6:33 PM
Post #40 of 43
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toboredtosleep wrote: Well, at least I don't see sales often on the BDs. I've only every seen the Master Cams at 43$ for a #5. So 46$ across the board for any piece is pretty good. lol, perhaps a better statement is I don't see sales ever on the stuff I'm looking for.
You just have to know where to look. Two days ago I bought a set of 5 BD Camalots from an REI garage sale (.5-3) for 170 bucks. All I'm saying is don't assume buying the set would be the cheapest and most convenient option. A little patience can save you a lot of money.
PS, I may be in RRG within the next couple weeks. Hit me up if your interested in grabbing a route or two with me.
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toboredtosleep
Jan 6, 2011, 8:35 PM
Post #41 of 43
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What is the opinion of the Trango Flex cam for the RRG? I may have run across a full set of them for cheap.
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currupt4130
Jan 17, 2011, 2:16 AM
Post #42 of 43
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Registered: Feb 7, 2008
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whiskeybullets wrote: Standard RRG trad rack for most people is doubles of fingers through fists. If you're a BD owner this would be .3 to 4. Then add a set of nuts and micro-cams. This will get you up 70% of the routes you'll want to do. For your rack, I'd suggest the following; Add two BD .3's. Add one ea of BD .4-3. Add two #4's. Forget the Hexes. Forget the tri-cams. Add a single set of micro cams. I'm impartial to Master Cams vs. C3s at the Red, but I LOVE aliens, so I'd buy those if you can find them. So here is a caveat: If you can find aliens, I'd say buy those through yellow (black, blue, green, yellow), and forget about the BD .3s. That will be tough though. It will be much easier to buy the BD .3 and then go with either C3s or TCUs or Master Cams that are smaller. Any of these will work in the Red, and everyone has their opinion which is the best. The money you save by NOT buying hexes and tricams will be spent on a 3rd #1 2, & 3 BD Camalot. I call this the girlfriend rack. With 3 BDs in the hand range, you can go climbing with your girlfriend (who has no rack of her own), and get up 85% of the RRG trad lines. To critique jrathfon: you have more gear than is needed for a solo ascent of the Nose on El Cap. I'm starting to think you have stock in BD and are trying to earn some dividends.
I have to say I believe you to be mostly right, but partially incorrect. I guess some people like the BD .3 and .4, but anything smaller than .5 in the BD line I find less use for than a TCU or an Alien of the same size. The head width and lobe width of the C4s below .5, and even .5 a lot of times limit their placement in RRG type of cracks.
Yes, Aliens are still awesome, no matter what anyone says.
Yes triple 1, 2 and 3 will get you up so much more at the Red. I would add that doubling up on the fingers/knuckle size will get you up a good bit more as well.
And who cares what jrathfon has for gear? So what if he has a ton of gear, maybe he climbs huge big wall free routes for fun and has a good selection of gear to take to the crag. I have a triples rack from tips to fists. But like you said, that's the girlfriend rack and you can go out with someone who doesn't have any gear and climb almost anything you want.
There was some other talk about nuts, offsets, and RPs earlier, and I'll add my two cents on that as well.
Leave the RPs at home. Take a rack of DMM/HB offsets and a rack (like others have said) of BD 4-11/13. I also like to take my DMM Peenuts. If not all the Peenuts, just the two biggest ones. I have my offsets on one biner and my BD nuts on two others (big/medium medium/small) with doubles of the sizes I use most. This works well for me, but maybe not for everyone. I find tons of uses for the offsets without having to look too hard, I personally use them more than my regular ones.
As far as tricams are concerned, I don't leave the ground without my 4 tricams. I don't use them on every route but it seems like more than 50% of the time that I leave them on the ground I wish I'd taken them. Again, that's my experience and not everyone elses.
(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Jan 17, 2011, 2:22 AM)
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currupt4130
Jan 17, 2011, 2:59 AM
Post #43 of 43
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toboredtosleep wrote: What is the opinion of the Trango Flex cam for the RRG? I may have run across a full set of them for cheap.
I don't personally care for their range.
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