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dindolino32
Feb 2, 2011, 12:53 AM
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Hey all,
I hope this discussion hasn't been beaten to death, however a couple of hours of reading hasn't revealed much. I am new to aid climbing. Been trad climbing plenty and feel comfortable on gear. I just bought two aiders and am going to get either a daisy chain or the PAS system. I don't really understand the benefits of one over the other and could use some insight. Again, if this has been discussed, a link would be great as I couldn't find it.
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mikebee
Feb 2, 2011, 1:06 AM
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For aid climbing, buy the daisy chains. If you understand how to use them then you'll realise that having lots of small pockets gives you lots of adjustability for use with your fifi and your jugs.
PAS are a better option than a daisy for every other situation that isn't aid climbing. You don't get as much fine adjustment, but the connection is stronger and you can't accidently clip yourself across a pocket and become entirely detached.
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socalclimber
Feb 2, 2011, 2:04 AM
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I have mixed feelings on these PAS goodies.
First off, for aid, just use your daisy's. In aid/wall climbing you're going to have enough gear on you as it is, don't complicate the situation.
The MOST important thing to remember when using a daisy is to make sure that your biner is ALWAYS clipped into the end loop. No matter how you clip the pockets, make sure at the very least that you are ALWAYS clipped to the end loop of each daisy.
Sorry, but I'm old school. When it comes to trad I just use the rope. I don't like all this excess that has become all the rage these days. Simple systems = simple inspection. Leave the PAS and the rest of the shiny objects at home or in the store.
That's just my rule.
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dindolino32
Feb 2, 2011, 2:09 AM
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Thanks guys. I always use my rope for trad anchors too. I would only use them for aid, hence I will be getting the daisies. Thanks
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climbingaggie03
Feb 2, 2011, 2:14 AM
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Just a thought, but you might get adjustable daisys instead of traditional daisys. I have both and I really like the adjustable daisys. I use metolious, but yates makes a nice looking one that I think is stronger, and also Fish might make some, I'm not sure.
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socalclimber
Feb 2, 2011, 2:19 AM
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The adjustable's are great for many reasons. The one thing to take into consideration is that they wear fast. Especially the buckle types like Yates. I mean no disrespect to Yates, I have a load of his products, including adjustable's. It's just something to be aware of. On a long aid route or wall, the last thing you want is for a buckle to fail.
Not a bad option, just realize what the possible problems are with an active system versus a passive one.
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USnavy
Feb 2, 2011, 2:27 AM
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I use PAS's. I always keep two PAS's attached to my harness to tie into anchors with so I use them for aid too. They are a tad short for any seriously arm extending top stepping placement, but anything else they are fine for. But I use an adjustable daisy to aid with instead of daisys most of the time so its not really applicable in my case. For C1 - C2 the adjustable is the way to go IMO, you get to skip using your fifi 50% of the time and you eliminate daisy chain falls. It also saves you weight as one adjustable is lighter most of the time. I like the Petzl Quickfix, its only rated for 1.5 kN so dont use it for anything other than aid, but the buckle movement is smooth and its far lighter than the Yates.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 2, 2011, 2:29 AM)
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ptlong2
Feb 2, 2011, 2:33 AM
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socalclimber wrote: The MOST important thing to remember when using a daisy is to make sure that your biner is ALWAYS clipped into the end loop. No matter how you clip the pockets, make sure at the very least that you are ALWAYS clipped to the end loop of each daisy.
Why?
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dwise
Feb 2, 2011, 2:42 AM
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socalclimber wrote: I have mixed feelings on these PAS goodies. The MOST important thing to remember when using a daisy is to make sure that your biner is ALWAYS clipped into the end loop. No matter how you clip the pockets, make sure at the very least that you are ALWAYS clipped to the end loop of each daisy. ?!?! Am I missing something? If you clip the biner into the end loop and another loop on a daisy, if the stitching blows, you're not clipped into any of them. Only clip into one loop at a time--never stay clipped into the end loop if also clipped into a shorter one.
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socalclimber
Feb 2, 2011, 2:45 AM
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ptlong2 wrote: socalclimber wrote: The MOST important thing to remember when using a daisy is to make sure that your biner is ALWAYS clipped into the end loop. No matter how you clip the pockets, make sure at the very least that you are ALWAYS clipped to the end loop of each daisy. Why?
The end loop of your standard nylon daisy is rated for higher strength than the individual pockets. If you are always clipped into to the end loop it acts as the primary point of strength if the pockets fail during a static fall.
Now, there are new daisy chain models out there that have every pocket rated at full strength. Still, it's a good practice.
USNavy, I don't have a problem with the PAS. I'm sure they are fine. I just come from a time when none of this stuff existed. We have always relied on simple systems. The less fluff the better. I NEVER tell newer climbers to increase the complexity of the systems. Especially with walls. There's just too much going on to start with. Now let's mix in 10 hours of hard climbing. You're tired, you're thirsty, the water is running low. Your fatigue can get the best of you. This is when bad things happen.
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socalclimber
Feb 2, 2011, 3:00 AM
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I'll give you an example of just how much being tired can affect you. Granted this is not a wall, but a fairly low common denominator:
I had two young (18 & 19) Marines as clients 2 weeks ago. Both in great shape, far better than I am. We top roped all day. I taught them how to tie their basic figure eight early in the day. I also gave my standard lecture in the beginning how important simple systems are. Especially for the reasons of inspection when you get tired.
Sure enough, at the end of the day, last climb, both were tired. One of them walked up, started to tie his knot and couldn't. I quietly watched for a few minutes. For the life of him he couldn't tie the knot he had tied all day with out problem. I finally asked him if he would like me to do it, and he said YES!
I promise you, this is not a made up story to prove a point. This happened. It has happened with client in the past. It just illustrates why I dislike all the gadgets.
They are fine 99% of the time, but when you are really, really tired, the last thing you need is more gadgets to play with.
If you are comfortable with your choice of systems, and they work for you, then fine by me. I just won't promote them myself.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Feb 2, 2011, 3:02 AM)
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Rudmin
Feb 2, 2011, 3:03 AM
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socalclimber wrote: The end loop of your standard nylon daisy is rated for higher strength than the individual pockets. If you are always clipped into to the end loop it acts as the primary point of strength if the pockets fail during a static fall.
The dangerous thing is when the end and the pocket are both clipped by the same biner. Then if the stitching breaks the biner can end up attached to nothing.
In reply to: Now, there are new daisy chain models out there that have every pocket rated at full strength. Still, it's a good practice.
Really? I don't think this is true. The design of a daisy chain means that if you are weighting a pocket, you are pulling apart the bar tacks one at a time instead of pulling on all of them together. You must be getting confused with the PAS, or home made knotted webbing.
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socalclimber
Feb 2, 2011, 3:15 AM
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Rudmin wrote: socalclimber wrote: The end loop of your standard nylon daisy is rated for higher strength than the individual pockets. If you are always clipped into to the end loop it acts as the primary point of strength if the pockets fail during a static fall. If you are clipped into a pocket, you are still clipped into the entire loop. When the individual pockets break, it's not the nylon that breaks but the stitching. Being clipped at the end as well as at the pocket doesn't put you in any different situation than just being clipped at a pocket. The dangerous thing is when the end and the pocket are both clipped by the same biner. Then if the stitching breaks the biner can end up attached to nothing. In reply to: Now, there are new daisy chain models out there that have every pocket rated at full strength. Still, it's a good practice. Really? I don't think this is true. The design of a daisy chain means that if you are weighting a pocket, you are pulling apart the bar tacks one at a time instead of pulling on all of them together. You must be getting confused with the PAS, or home made knotted webbing.
You are right sir, I stand corrected. My wife just corrected me that I did indeed confuse the PAS! Thanks for the heads up.
Also, my apologies, I was unclear on the daisy chain end of things. My point was that if you are always connected to the end loop of the standard nylon daisies, then if you do CROSS clip the pockets you are still clipped into the system.
Again, thanks for the correction. Guess I'd better take a closer look at the PAS! Maybe I am too old school :)
Just for clarification, the PAS is not a replacement for the daisy.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Feb 2, 2011, 3:17 AM)
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USnavy
Feb 2, 2011, 4:16 AM
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I am not sure why people are talking about keeping things simple by implying to use a daisy chain instead of a PAS. A PAS is a daisy chain, its just different than most in that it has less pockets, its shorter and the entire thing is full strength. But its still a daisy chain. The only thing that makes it less suitable for aid is that its shorter and it has less pockets, but its no more complicated than any other daisy. I would say its actually less complicated in that you have to be careful how you clip a standard daisy chain where as you can clip the PAS anyway you want as the entire thing is full strength.
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dugl33
Feb 2, 2011, 5:09 AM
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socalclimber wrote: I have mixed feelings on these PAS goodies. First off, for aid, just use your daisy's. In aid/wall climbing you're going to have enough gear on you as it is, don't complicate the situation. The MOST important thing to remember when using a daisy is to make sure that your biner is ALWAYS clipped into the end loop. No matter how you clip the pockets, make sure at the very least that you are ALWAYS clipped to the end loop of each daisy. Sorry, but I'm old school. When it comes to trad I just use the rope. I don't like all this excess that has become all the rage these days. Simple systems = simple inspection. Leave the PAS and the rest of the shiny objects at home or in the store. That's just my rule.
Its not enough to clip the end (unless of course that's all you clip). Either use a separate biner to adjust for length, or you need a twist in the daisy...
http://vimeo.com/14679471
*****************
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...angers-en-glbl-en-us
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shimanilami
Feb 2, 2011, 7:11 AM
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For aid, get daisies. More pockets = finer adjustment, which you'll learn to appreciate.
"Full strength" is at best a nice-to-have. Unless you're a jackass, you anchor in with the rope. The daisies just hold you in position.
You didn't ask but I'd recommend spectra daisies. They're easier to hook with the fifi and are a tad less bulky. To prevent CF's, get a bright one (i.e. white or yellow) and a dark one, in different flavors than your partner's.
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vegastradguy
Feb 2, 2011, 7:50 AM
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Two things:
@usnavy- I always recommend that people not keep nylon slings or daisies or other things permanently attached to their harnesses- it tends to hide wear and tear on the harness.
For those interested, metolius will begin producing the 'ultimate' daisy chain this fall- basically a daisy length PAS.
Finally, i cant actually get behind the PAS- i feel that it is more of a liability than a help. That dyneema can fail under a static fall onto it makes me avoid any dyneema product that might result in me taking a static fall onto it- daisies, PAS, etc. If you must use a PAS style device, use a Sterling Chain Reactor- its nylon and can withstand a static fall onto it.
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healyje
Feb 2, 2011, 8:46 AM
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The topic of daisy vs PAS vs. Chain Reactor vs. Purcell prusik for anchoring has been beaten to death over and over.
Confusing the PAS (Personal Anchor System) with a daisy for aid is another matter altogether. USNavy may use one that way but I certainly wouldn't use it for anything but anchoring. Just get a pair of Fish or Yates adjustable daisies and learn how to use them for aiding.
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socalclimber
Feb 2, 2011, 12:16 PM
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Have you ever had any problems with the buckles slipping over time? I have.
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moose_droppings
Feb 2, 2011, 5:10 PM
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The first post answered the question you asked.
mikebee wrote: For aid climbing, buy the daisy chains. If you understand how to use them then you'll realise that having lots of small pockets gives you lots of adjustability for use with your fifi and your jugs. PAS are a better option than a daisy for every other situation that isn't aid climbing. You don't get as much fine adjustment, but the connection is stronger and you can't accidently clip yourself across a pocket and become entirely detached.
The only thing he didn't cover was either to use an adjustable daisy or a regular daisy. It's a personal thing IMO. Borrow the two different kinds and try them out for yourself. I've used both and will never use an adjustable one again.
Don't confuse the talk in this thread about anchoring with a daisy versus using it for aiding. When aiding with a daisy, you'll have one end girth hitched to your tie in points on your harness and the other end clipped to the biner on your aider. All of the loops between the two ends of the regular daisy are for fifi'ing into at whatever distant you need at that time.
And for the record,
Yer gonna die!!!
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majid_sabet
Feb 2, 2011, 5:45 PM
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socalclimber wrote: I have mixed feelings on these PAS goodies. First off, for aid, just use your daisy's. In aid/wall climbing you're going to have enough gear on you as it is, don't complicate the situation. The MOST important thing to remember when using a daisy is to make sure that your biner is ALWAYS clipped into the end loop. No matter how you clip the pockets, make sure at the very least that you are ALWAYS clipped to the end loop of each daisy. Sorry, but I'm old school. When it comes to trad I just use the rope. I don't like all this excess that has become all the rage these days. Simple systems = simple inspection. Leave the PAS and the rest of the shiny objects at home or in the store. That's just my rule.
Roger that
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milesenoell
Feb 2, 2011, 6:36 PM
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I just got into aiding as well, and I can't speak highly enough of using adjustable daisies instead of static.
Adjustable is your friend.
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milesenoell
Feb 2, 2011, 6:38 PM
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healyje wrote: The topic of daisy vs PAS vs. Chain Reactor vs. Purcell prusik for anchoring has been beaten to death over and over. Confusing the PAS ( Personal Anchor System) with a daisy for aid is another matter altogether. USNavy may use one that way but I certainly wouldn't use it for anything but anchoring. Just get a pair of Fish or Yates adjustable daisies and learn how to use them for aiding.
I didn't realize Joe beat me to the punch, but let me bold it.
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socalclimber
Feb 2, 2011, 6:58 PM
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I must admit, I do like the yates adjustables. I went this weekend for the first in a number of years to do some really basic aid, and I was having a tough time getting my top step setup working with them. I switched back to my old system of daisies and a fifi hook and viola! No problems. I think I just need to dick with them some more. They do have their advantages.
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milesenoell
Feb 2, 2011, 7:19 PM
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socalclimber wrote: I must admit, I do like the yates adjustables. I went this weekend for the first in a number of years to do some really basic aid, and I was having a tough time getting my top step setup working with them. I switched back to my old system of daisies and a fifi hook and viola! No problems. I think I just need to dick with them some more. They do have their advantages.
Aid is so methodical I can imagine that switching would come with costs, but since I'm just starting out it's been an easy choice for me.
The thing that really sold me on them is that they can be extended longer than my arms can reach, so I never get "short roped" reaching for a high placement, and when it's clipped to my harness, I can keep the loop above my knee so it doesn't catch on my lower leg or foot like a regular daisy.
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Feb 2, 2011, 7:21 PM)
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