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USnavy


Feb 9, 2011, 11:22 PM
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Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause?
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Yet again today I saw someone climb without double backing their harness. I saw it last week too, and last month, and the month before, and the previous 50 months before that. Not a month goes by that I don't see some new climber fail to double back their harness. Yet despite this potentially lethal mistake, I haven't actually seen any incidents occur.

So this got me wondering, how many accidents have occurred from climbers failing to double back their harness? Have you ever seen someone completely fall out of their harness on a fall because the leg and waist loops pulled through the buckle?


(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 9, 2011, 11:26 PM)


bearbreeder


Feb 9, 2011, 11:31 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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thats a double failure ... of the climber to self check ... and the partner to double check

why anyone would want to get a non self adjusting/locking harness these days is beyond me ... a few extra bucks for something less to go wrong ...


majid_sabet


Feb 9, 2011, 11:41 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
Yet again today I saw someone climb without double backing their harness. I saw it last week too, and last month, and the month before, and the previous 50 months before that. Not a month goes by that I don't see some new climber fail to double back their harness. Yet despite this potentially lethal mistake, I haven't actually seen any incidents occur.

So this got me wondering, how many accidents have occurred from climbers failing to double back their harness? Have you ever seen someone completely fall out of their harness on a fall because the leg and waist loops pulled through the buckle?

so what are you?

some on-site climbing safety investigator?


vegastradguy


Feb 10, 2011, 12:01 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
Yet again today I saw someone climb without double backing their harness. I saw it last week too, and last month, and the month before, and the previous 50 months before that. Not a month goes by that I don't see some new climber fail to double back their harness. Yet despite this potentially lethal mistake, I haven't actually seen any incidents occur.

So this got me wondering, how many accidents have occurred from climbers failing to double back their harness? Have you ever seen someone completely fall out of their harness on a fall because the leg and waist loops pulled through the buckle?

most harnesses today have the quick-buckle system, more or less eliminating the need for a double back- although there are still a fair number of harnesses out there you need to physically double back.

of course, this begs the question- did (do) you say anything? and if not, why?

i usually dont stick my nose into other peoples climbing habits unless its likely kill them, then im usually quick to point that shit out.


USnavy


Feb 10, 2011, 2:14 AM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:
USnavy wrote:
Yet again today I saw someone climb without double backing their harness. I saw it last week too, and last month, and the month before, and the previous 50 months before that. Not a month goes by that I don't see some new climber fail to double back their harness. Yet despite this potentially lethal mistake, I haven't actually seen any incidents occur.

So this got me wondering, how many accidents have occurred from climbers failing to double back their harness? Have you ever seen someone completely fall out of their harness on a fall because the leg and waist loops pulled through the buckle?

most harnesses today have the quick-buckle system, more or less eliminating the need for a double back- although there are still a fair number of harnesses out there you need to physically double back.

of course, this begs the question- did (do) you say anything? and if not, why?
The Black Diamond Momentum harness seems to be a number top seller at our shop, thus many of the beginners running around are using a harness that requires double backing. Yes I say something.
majid_sabet wrote:

so what are you?

some on-site climbing safety investigator?

No, more like mildly observant. You dont have to be a professional tactician or CIA covert operative to notice someone dident double back their harness, its pretty damn obvious.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 10, 2011, 2:21 AM)


shiro16


Feb 10, 2011, 2:19 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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Out of curiosity, how many of these "failure to double back" occurrences were actually just you or your partner forgetting to double back?

Wink


socalclimber


Feb 10, 2011, 3:39 AM
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Re: [shiro16] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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I always tell the newbies, the more you practice good safety habits, the more ingrained they will become and you will do them without thinking.

The more you practice bad safety habits, the more ingrained they will become and you will do them without thinking.


granite_grrl


Feb 10, 2011, 4:30 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
thats a double failure ... of the climber to self check ... and the partner to double check

why anyone would want to get a non self adjusting/locking harness these days is beyond me ... a few extra bucks for something less to go wrong ...
Climbing is not an activity that can be made idiot proof.

Personally, I don't like the auto double back you find on too many harnesses, I think it's a pain in the ass to put on. BD even put the speed adjust buckles on their ice harness.....seriously, WTF?

Also, it promotes people NOT to do a double check on themselves and their partner.


sp115


Feb 10, 2011, 4:37 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
... Not a month goes by that I don't see some new climber fail to double back their harness...


I'm vigilant about the pre-climb inspection and in more than a dozen years of climbing I've never seen a partner not double-back their harness. Not once. And that includes the leg-loop buckles as well.

Where are you seeing this happen, outside or in a gym?


Guran


Feb 10, 2011, 4:39 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
I always tell the newbies, the more you practice good safety habits, the more ingrained they will become and you will do them without thinking.

...and it's precisely when you stop thinking about them you forget.

On the point of the OP: I think non-doubled-back buckles behave like non-tightened/poorly dressed knots, ie they might not fail immediately but rather work themselves loose. So there is a decent chance you notice your harnes getting loose before you actually fall out of it.

Wouldn't bet my life on it though.


bearbreeder


Feb 10, 2011, 4:46 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
Climbing is not an activity that can be made idiot proof.

Personally, I don't like the auto double back you find on too many harnesses, I think it's a pain in the ass to put on. BD even put the speed adjust buckles on their ice harness.....seriously, WTF?

Also, it promotes people NOT to do a double check on themselves and their partner.


its ease of use ... you still check the tie in and to make sure that the belt is tight ... its one less thing to screw up ...

is there any evidence the self lock/adjust buckles promote carelessness? ... numbers please

if so quite a few people must be careless ... basically a lot of people who buys a mid-higher end harness ...Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 10, 2011, 4:50 AM)


blueeyedclimber


Feb 10, 2011, 5:24 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
Yet again today I saw someone climb without double backing their harness. I saw it last week too, and last month, and the month before, and the previous 50 months before that. Not a month goes by that I don't see some new climber fail to double back their harness. Yet despite this potentially lethal mistake, I haven't actually seen any incidents occur.

So this got me wondering, how many accidents have occurred from climbers failing to double back their harness? Have you ever seen someone completely fall out of their harness on a fall because the leg and waist loops pulled through the buckle?

so what are you?

some on-site climbing safety investigator?

Well, the on-line safety investigator position was already taken Cool

Josh


david7896


Feb 10, 2011, 5:24 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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are you saying anything to these people? be careful to not confuse your buckles. i have a self lock/adjust buckle harness, and two people have stopped me to tell me to double back my harness. I laugh at them, and explain. I find it odd that they cant tell the difference.


Partner j_ung


Feb 10, 2011, 6:20 AM
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Re: [sp115] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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sp115 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
... Not a month goes by that I don't see some new climber fail to double back their harness...


I'm vigilant about the pre-climb inspection and in more than a dozen years of climbing I've never seen a partner not double-back their harness. Not once. And that includes the leg-loop buckles as well.

Where are you seeing this happen, outside or in a gym?

I certainly haven't seen it as often as the OP, but I do notice it every once in a while. I always say something when I do. It's not something anybody can argue an opposite opinion over: your buckle needs to be doubled back + it isn't = thanks, I totally missed that—pretty much every time.

FWIW, if anybody is especially worried about it, they can grab a speed buckle harness (which I don't personally care for, but whatever). Also, Metolius Safe-Tech harnesses have a buckle that's good to 10kN when it isn't doubled back. There may be others out there that have similar qualities.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Feb 10, 2011, 6:21 AM)


csproul


Feb 10, 2011, 6:29 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
thats a double failure ... of the climber to self check ... and the partner to double check

why anyone would want to get a non self adjusting/locking harness these days is beyond me ... a few extra bucks for something less to go wrong ...
I use a harness with permanently doubled buckles when rock climbing, but I hate using this harness when wearing crampons. I like to have a harness that easily comes completely open so I don't ever have to step through it with crampons on.


Rudmin


Feb 10, 2011, 7:08 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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I doubt it often causes serious accidents. Here are my reasons:

The waist buckle doesn't take very much load normally, nothing close to what the rope does. The first thing to take any weight in a fall is the leg loop tie in point. The waist loop basically keeps you from flipping backwards.

Most harnesses have a doubled over stitching on the end of their strap that would jam up in the buckle as it slid through.

If the waist buckle did come completely undone, the climber is still attached by their leg loops. On top rope this means just grabbing the rope to keep balanced. On lead, this might mean flipping upside down if you took a fall. You would then most likely be caught by the leg loops. If you have ever seen a beginner put on a harness, it is in fact very easy to get tangled up and stuck in the leg loops.

It would be a very unlucky climber that didn't double back their buckle, took a lead fall, had the waist come completely undone, flipped upside down, and slid out of the leg loops.


shockabuku


Feb 10, 2011, 7:18 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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As Rudmin suggests it probably isn't a certain death sentence but I wonder, how many people with improperly buckled harnesses do you see who are lead climbing?

I would guess that most incompletely buckled harnesses stay closed during top roping but might come undone under a more violent lead fall.


Partner j_ung


Feb 10, 2011, 7:19 AM
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I saw a toproper flip upside down from this many years ago, and end up hanging by the knees from the leg loops. It was probably early nineties, so it wasn't really a modern harness.


chadnsc


Feb 10, 2011, 7:38 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
USnavy wrote:
Yet again today I saw someone climb without double backing their harness. I saw it last week too, and last month, and the month before, and the previous 50 months before that. Not a month goes by that I don't see some new climber fail to double back their harness. Yet despite this potentially lethal mistake, I haven't actually seen any incidents occur.

So this got me wondering, how many accidents have occurred from climbers failing to double back their harness? Have you ever seen someone completely fall out of their harness on a fall because the leg and waist loops pulled through the buckle?

so what are you?

some on-site climbing safety investigator?

He's just taking over where you left off midget.


chilli


Feb 10, 2011, 8:17 AM
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i would actually be interested in seeing the statistics on this one. i am aware of a few of incident report resources, but those are related to SAR-type things. i'd be curious to know if there are databanks that would contain reported incidents involving gyms & TR crags, where i assume (maybe due to prejudice) most of this sort of mistake occurs (presumption is a dangerous thing Unimpressed).

if anyone knows of that kind of compilation please post up.

i guess the alternative is looking at testing failures and extrapolating, but i'd kind of like to know about real-world indices.


shockabuku


Feb 10, 2011, 8:19 AM
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I bet that was pretty exciting!


majid_sabet


Feb 10, 2011, 8:37 AM
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chilli wrote:
i would actually be interested in seeing the statistics on this one. i am aware of a few of incident report resources, but those are related to SAR-type things. i'd be curious to know if there are databanks that would contain reported incidents involving gyms & TR crags, where i assume (maybe due to prejudice) most of this sort of mistake occurs (presumption is a dangerous thing Unimpressed).

if anyone knows of that kind of compilation please post up.

i guess the alternative is looking at testing failures and extrapolating, but i'd kind of like to know about real-world indices.

I know several near misses but no fatality. one incident was cut on vids in Philippine during filming when the actor was rapping off some wall and his harness came off causing him to turn upside down.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 10, 2011, 8:40 AM)


erisspirit


Feb 10, 2011, 9:47 AM
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Re: [sp115] Failing to double back your harness - How many accidents does this cause? [In reply to]
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sp115 wrote:
USnavy wrote:
... Not a month goes by that I don't see some new climber fail to double back their harness...


I'm vigilant about the pre-climb inspection and in more than a dozen years of climbing I've never seen a partner not double-back their harness. Not once. And that includes the leg-loop buckles as well.

Where are you seeing this happen, outside or in a gym?

My partner and I always double check each other. We both now have the quick-lock system on our harnesses, but we still check them just to make sure everything is ready to go.

A girl I once climbed with forgot to double back, but it was caught and fixed before she was allowed up the climb.


bearbreeder


Feb 10, 2011, 9:48 AM
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csproul wrote:
I use a harness with permanently doubled buckles when rock climbing, but I hate using this harness when wearing crampons. I like to have a harness that easily comes completely open so I don't ever have to step through it with crampons on.


got a dead bird 350 harness that is self locking ... never had an issue ... i can take it fully apart as easy as my old double back bd

no need to step through with crampons


sp115


Feb 10, 2011, 10:21 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
csproul wrote:
I use a harness with permanently doubled buckles when rock climbing, but I hate using this harness when wearing crampons. I like to have a harness that easily comes completely open so I don't ever have to step through it with crampons on.


got a dead bird 350 harness that is self locking ... never had an issue ... i can take it fully apart as easy as my old double back bd

no need to step through with crampons

I have the R-320 and the self-locking (always doubled back) buckle is infintely better than the Petzl harness I had before it (Corax or Calidris).

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