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cgarstin


Feb 23, 2011, 9:31 AM
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Top roping with two ropes
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Does anyone climb top-rope with two ropes, just for redundancy?

If so, what are the pro's and con's of doing so? Is it just plain stupid and paranoid?

Thanks!

Chris


airscape


Feb 23, 2011, 9:42 AM
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Re: [cgarstin] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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cgarstin wrote:
Does anyone climb top-rope with two ropes, just for redundancy?

If so, what are the pro's and con's of doing so? Is it just plain stupid and paranoid?

Thanks!

Chris

What?


airscape


Feb 23, 2011, 9:43 AM
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Who is teaching you these things? Get a new teacher.


MS1


Feb 23, 2011, 9:47 AM
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Re: [cgarstin] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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cgarstin wrote:
Does anyone climb top-rope with two ropes, just for redundancy?

If so, what are the pro's and con's of doing so? Is it just plain stupid and paranoid?

Thanks!

Chris

Yes, it is stupid and paranoid. There are times when two ropes are useful, but a top-rope day is not one of them. It's just a lot of extra cluster for no meaningful safety benefit.


dynosore


Feb 23, 2011, 10:00 AM
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Re: [cgarstin] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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cgarstin wrote:
Does anyone climb top-rope with two ropes, just for redundancy?

If so, what are the pro's and con's of doing so? Is it just plain stupid and paranoid?

Thanks!

Chris
Ignore the saysayers. Will they be there to catch you when you take an 18" whipper and your only rope cuts on a sharp edge? Back it up!!


(This post was edited by dynosore on Feb 23, 2011, 10:02 AM)


Frozen13


Feb 23, 2011, 11:09 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
Ignore the saysayers. Will they be there to catch you when you take an 18" whipper and your only rope cuts on a sharp edge? Back it up!!

You should probably have a belayer with double ropes and then a 2nd belayer with a single rope. You know just in case that sharp edge cuts the double ropes! Wink


olderic


Feb 23, 2011, 12:04 PM
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Re: [cgarstin] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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Actually if the route traverses a lot there might be a reasonable need for two. Or if the route is longer then 1/2 a rope and you are not going to belay from the top then you might tie two ropes together - triggering endless discussions of what knot to use and how to "pass the knot". Another example of using two ropes for TR. Neither example is apparently what you had in mind though. OK - how about this one - you are using a really skinny rope. The landing is really sketchy. the crux is near the bottom. you might want to double up to reduce the stretch. But assuming your original question didn't involve any of these scenarios and it was more about the reasonableness of a belt AND suspenders approach - then no it really doesn't add any value (safety).


1904climber


Feb 23, 2011, 1:09 PM
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Re: [dynosore] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
cgarstin wrote:
Does anyone climb top-rope with two ropes, just for redundancy?

If so, what are the pro's and con's of doing so? Is it just plain stupid and paranoid?

Thanks!

Chris
Ignore the saysayers. Will they be there to catch you when you take an 18" whipper and your only rope cuts on a sharp edge? Back it up!!
i took a 24"-36" whipper in a gym a few years back.
that shit hurt so bad. static ropes and 2-3 foot falls are not supposed to be in the same sentence.
needless to say i no longer climb with that belayer.
as a matter of fact i am no longer married to that belayer.
how can you let 3 feet of slack in the line when top roping, only reason i didn't notice is cause i was climbing over a roof section.

oh yeah, but no you don't need double ropes for toproping.


iknowfear


Feb 23, 2011, 2:19 PM
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Re: [cgarstin] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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cgarstin wrote:
Does anyone climb top-rope with two ropes, just for redundancy?

If so, what are the pro's and con's of doing so? Is it just plain stupid and paranoid?

Thanks!

Chris

For Rockclimbing: Meh. Unless you routinely wash your ropes in battery acid, a top rope situation is faaaaaaaar below any load generated toproping.

One useful application:
Newbs /Children on ice is another possibility besides those mentioned in the thread. Reduces the possibility of cutting your lifeline with a single hit. However, most newbs on ice will know to avoid hitting the rope...
You could also simply tie a loooong loop, and then tie in with a doubled-double-eight-CF. This is only useful if your reach (with tools) is shorter than the knot is. This implies: it is not possible to retrieve screws this way without large amounts of slack in the system (which is NOT what a beginner on Ice wants) - So only for pure toproping, not seconding...


USnavy


Feb 23, 2011, 7:16 PM
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Re: [cgarstin] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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cgarstin wrote:
Does anyone climb top-rope with two ropes, just for redundancy?

If so, what are the pro's and con's of doing so? Is it just plain stupid and paranoid?

Thanks!

Chris
Yea, twin ropes...


moose_droppings


Feb 23, 2011, 7:43 PM
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Re: [cgarstin] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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If your route is long and your using one top rope with a device (rescucender, trax, etc.) and the other top rope has loops used to clip to every so often as a redundant backup, then yes, I've heard of this. Backup while roped soloing is not being overly paranoid.


Pro- a safe backup for top rope soloing.
Con- use of an extra rope and stopping to clip.

You could use an extra device for a backup.

Pro- a safe backup for top rope soloing.
Con- use of two devices can be a bit of a CF if not rigged right and not paying attention to rope feed.

I normally just use backup knots below the one device.

Pro- safe backup.
Con- need to stop and tie knots.


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Feb 23, 2011, 7:49 PM)


tpro


Feb 23, 2011, 8:06 PM
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Re: [cgarstin] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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I think there is only one moderately intelligent response in this whole thread; it's a brief mention of twin ropes. Not 1/2 ropes...twin ropes. There is a difference. Learn it.

You don't see much use of 2 ropes in N.America, especially in TR climbing or even lead climbing. In Europe it is more common..perhaps not as many unsubstantiated egos?

If you employ 2 normal single ropes as you would 1 rope, you won't get the proper shock absorption dynamic out of the rope(s) when you do take a real whipper...(by the way, I'm pretty sure a whipper has to be more than a couple body lengths...not just 24"-36"???) Without the proper shock absorption by the rope, depending on your TR anchor and your harness, it could really hurt or over-stress your anchor system.

The idea of using 2 ropes should not be discounted by any means. Don't let the 'hero' replies here discourage you if it means your piece of mind to enjoy this sport. There's a number of goofs in this sport who believe getting injured is a sign of greatness Pirate
It's probably also safe to assume most of them don't have much to worry about come Monday morning eitherWink
In this sport, you should leave your ego at home if you plan to enjoy it for a long time.


airscape


Feb 23, 2011, 10:55 PM
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Re: [tpro] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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tpro wrote:
I think there is only one moderately intelligent response in this whole thread; it's a brief mention of twin ropes. Not 1/2 ropes...twin ropes. There is a difference. Learn it.

You don't see much use of 2 ropes in N.America, especially in TR climbing or even lead climbing. In Europe it is more common..perhaps not as many unsubstantiated egos?

If you employ 2 normal single ropes as you would 1 rope, you won't get the proper shock absorption dynamic out of the rope(s) when you do take a real whipper...(by the way, I'm pretty sure a whipper has to be more than a couple body lengths...not just 24"-36"???) Without the proper shock absorption by the rope, depending on your TR anchor and your harness, it could really hurt or over-stress your anchor system.

The idea of using 2 ropes should not be discounted by any means. Don't let the 'hero' replies here discourage you if it means your piece of mind to enjoy this sport. There's a number of goofs in this sport who believe getting injured is a sign of greatness Pirate
It's probably also safe to assume most of them don't have much to worry about come Monday morning eitherWink
In this sport, you should leave your ego at home if you plan to enjoy it for a long time.

WTF are you talking about??

You know you can do toproping with a cheap ass static rope? Right??

THe only concerning thing about the question in the OP is what does the anchor look like?


But please feel free to buy twins for toprope.... I forget toproping is really a very specialised field reserved for only the elite... not for guys like me that get injured to be the greatest.


sungam


Feb 24, 2011, 3:10 AM
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cgarstin wrote:
Does anyone climb top-rope with two ropes
Only when the pitch is longer then 30m.


Gmburns2000


Feb 24, 2011, 4:34 AM
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tpro wrote:

You don't see much use of 2 ropes in N.America, especially in TR climbing or even lead climbing. In Europe it is more common..perhaps not as many unsubstantiated egos?

I climb almost exclusively on doubles, and many of the people I know in the Northeast do the same. I haven't owned a reasonable single rope in quite a few years (reasonable = new)


airscape


Feb 24, 2011, 4:36 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
tpro wrote:

You don't see much use of 2 ropes in N.America, especially in TR climbing or even lead climbing. In Europe it is more common..perhaps not as many unsubstantiated egos?

I climb almost exclusively on doubles, and many of the people I know in the Northeast do the same. I haven't owned a reasonable single rope in quite a few years (reasonable = new)

You toprope on your doubles?


Gmburns2000


Feb 24, 2011, 4:49 AM
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airscape wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
tpro wrote:

You don't see much use of 2 ropes in N.America, especially in TR climbing or even lead climbing. In Europe it is more common..perhaps not as many unsubstantiated egos?

I climb almost exclusively on doubles, and many of the people I know in the Northeast do the same. I haven't owned a reasonable single rope in quite a few years (reasonable = new)

You toprope on your doubles?


heh - well played. I was more referring to his point about leading than TR. I don't TR very often in the true sense (e.g. - not including climbing as the second)


cfnubbler


Feb 24, 2011, 6:39 AM
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Re: [olderic] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
Actually if the route traverses a lot there might be a reasonable need for two. Or if the route is longer then 1/2 a rope and you are not going to belay from the top then you might tie two ropes together - triggering endless discussions of what knot to use and how to "pass the knot". Another example of using two ropes for TR. Neither example is apparently what you had in mind though. OK - how about this one - you are using a really skinny rope. The landing is really sketchy. the crux is near the bottom. you might want to double up to reduce the stretch. But assuming your original question didn't involve any of these scenarios and it was more about the reasonableness of a belt AND suspenders approach - then no it really doesn't add any value (safety).

Just make sure you follow the manufacturer's recommendations when tying in to the belt and suspenders.


shoo


Feb 24, 2011, 7:45 AM
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Re: [airscape] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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airscape wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
tpro wrote:

You don't see much use of 2 ropes in N.America, especially in TR climbing or even lead climbing. In Europe it is more common..perhaps not as many unsubstantiated egos?

I climb almost exclusively on doubles, and many of the people I know in the Northeast do the same. I haven't owned a reasonable single rope in quite a few years (reasonable = new)

You toprope on your doubles?

Alright, I'll go ahead and bite here. I toprope on doubles more than occasionally. Flame away.
This is NOT recommended practice for these ropes. They are not designed for this, and are not at all ideal for this use. However, I find that the risk/benefit is suitable for me and the kinds of climbing I do.

For me, northeastern trad/ice is all about the double ropes. The crags in the North Conway area are my mainstay climbing locales, where doubles are super handy for the committing stuff. However, NoCo also offers some incredible single pitch lines as well. I will often finish my days on the single pitch mini crags, sometimes doing laps or just messing around. And since I have the doubles on me, that's what I'll be using.

Generally, I use a single half/double as a single line for simplicity. I am well aware of the huge amount of stretch on the rope vs. a standard single, as well as the wear and additional risk of cutting. If I anticipate these being a significant issue, I'll use the doubles together.


cgarstin


Feb 25, 2011, 10:04 AM
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Awesome, I hadn't received any notice that people had replied, but it's generated good conversation.

I can see why there would be a knee jerk reaction to consider two ropes for top-roping silly. And I have traditionally felt this way too, but had this niggling thought in my mind.

When setting up anchors, I've always been taught about redundancy, and that naturally led me to wonder about how your rope becomes your only single point of failure, and by extension, wondered if anyone had decided to remove this by using two ropes.

Interesting opinions on this.


bearbreeder


Feb 27, 2011, 12:36 AM
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Re: [cgarstin] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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you had better use 2 biners in yr belay device, back up your belay loop, etc ... as well

ropes are tough ... if top roping has a reasonable probability of rope failure of a rope in decent condition ... im quitting climbing ...

not to say that some old shaggy wrecked 20 yr old rope hasnt failed top roping ... but if it was even slightly common ... newbs would be dying in droves


blueeyedclimber


Mar 11, 2011, 5:44 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
you had better use 2 biners in yr belay device, back up your belay loop, etc ... as well

I think it's better to climb with 2 climbers at the same time as well. If one falls and dies, you still have one left.

Josh


cornstateclimber


Mar 12, 2011, 4:15 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
you had better use 2 biners in yr belay device, back up your belay loop, etc ... as well

I think it's better to climb with 2 climbers at the same time as well. If one falls and dies, you still have one left.
LMAO better get your whistle too

Josh


potreroed


Mar 13, 2011, 10:20 AM
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Re: [1904climber] Top roping with two ropes [In reply to]
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1904climber wrote:
dynosore wrote:
cgarstin wrote:
Does anyone climb top-rope with two ropes, just for redundancy?

If so, what are the pro's and con's of doing so? Is it just plain stupid and paranoid?

Thanks!

Chris
Ignore the saysayers. Will they be there to catch you when you take an 18" whipper and your only rope cuts on a sharp edge? Back it up!!
i took a 24"-36" whipper in a gym a few years back.
that shit hurt so bad. static ropes and 2-3 foot falls are not supposed to be in the same sentence.
needless to say i no longer climb with that belayer.
as a matter of fact i am no longer married to that belayer.
how can you let 3 feet of slack in the line when top roping, only reason i didn't notice is cause i was climbing over a roof section.

oh yeah, but no you don't need double ropes for toproping.

This is off the main topic but I couldn't resist commenting on this reply. I recently found myself in a situation where I was facing a 20 foot fall on a static rope (jumaring up a stuck rope). Now I realize the rope would have prolly broken and I've of gone on to the ground. Needless to say, I jumared up that rope veeeery carefully.


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