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dynosore
Mar 9, 2011, 2:51 PM
Post #26 of 70
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Glad you came out ok, close call for sure.
I wonder if skinny ropes are exacerbating this phenomenon. Not that it excuses bad belaying, but a 10.5 is certainly going to be more forgiving in an ATC than a 9.9 if you are a second late in arresting a fall.
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lena_chita
Moderator
Mar 9, 2011, 3:31 PM
Post #27 of 70
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dynosore wrote: I wonder if skinny ropes are exacerbating this phenomenon. Not that it excuses bad belaying, but a 10.5 is certainly going to be more forgiving in an ATC than a 9.9 if you are a second late in arresting a fall.
Sure, skinny ropes are more likely to slide through the ATC easily. Our gym uses these really thick ropes for TRs, and sometimes you almost have to push them through the ATC, to lower someone lightweight.
But the belay device that was used in the accident, if I understand correctly, was the one that had a high-friction mode (those teeth), and 9.9 is not super-skinny...
Getting a thicker rope in order to mitigate a glaring belay error, hoping that next time the rope will get stuck in an ATC even if the belayer screws up? That's just fucked up.
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lena_chita
Moderator
Mar 9, 2011, 3:38 PM
Post #28 of 70
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rrrADAM wrote: Personally, I've never been dropped, but I would have a LOT of confidence in a belayer with experience who HAS dropped someone in the past, as they would most likely be the most attentive belayers from that experience.
I am of two minds about it. If the belay mistake was due to inattention, or too relaxed and cavalier attitude, then yes, I can see that the person could learn the lesson and become the most attentive belayer ever. Something like what onrockandice mentioned, the OH SHIT wake-up call that you never forget.
But if it was due to a problem with their belay technique, then I am not sure. It is very hard to change an ingrained habbit after 10 years, I would be worried that the person would revert to the more familiar comfortable (but incorrect) stroke, or just continue doing what they were doing, maybe even unconsciously.
And as a climber who fell, you probably can't judge very well what was the reason for the mistake. Was the guy talking to friends? Gawking at a hot girl climbing Convicted? Did he trip and bump his arm? Or was he a walking timebomb who has been belaying the same incorrect way for 10 years, and it was simply a matter of time and chance, before he dropped someone?
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TradEddie
Mar 9, 2011, 5:11 PM
Post #29 of 70
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rrrADAM wrote: Glad you are OK, brutha... I remember watching Mike Reardon get dropped by a very experienced belayer some time ago at Malibu. Personally, I've never been dropped, but I would have a LOT of confidence in a belayer with experience who HAS dropped someone in the past, as they would most likely be the most attentive belayers from that experience.
My experience was slightly different, while I now trusted that the belayer who previously dropped me would never again be so distracted by adjacent cleavage, he kept the belay so tight that I simply couldn't climb at all...
It's hard to accept that even an experienced, competent, attentive belayer could make a mistake at just the wrong moment, but in my opinion that's the reality, and if you can't accept it, you shouldn't be climbing. I may be flamed for this by many experienced, competent, attentive belayers who say they've never dropped anyone, but that doesn't prove anything.
All you can do is try stack the odds in your favor; pick your belayer carefully. People spend hours discussing and comparing the best gear before buying, yet are prepared to let almost anyone belay them.
Glad it worked out well for the OP, in my case, I missed work for a week, sore neck for 6 months, and 8 years later still hate falling at the 4th bolt in the gym...
TE
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davyanderson
Mar 9, 2011, 5:28 PM
Post #30 of 70
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jt512 wrote: onrockandice wrote: I was on belay . . . No, you were belaying. Your partner was on belay. In reply to: I reached down as fast as I could to rub that pebble off (with my brake hand) and as I came back up his eyes and mine made contact. Correction. You weren't belaying, and your partner was not on belay. Jay
I lol'd
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potreroed
Mar 9, 2011, 6:03 PM
Post #31 of 70
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I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.
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spikeddem
Mar 9, 2011, 6:11 PM
Post #32 of 70
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potreroed wrote: I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.
That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri.
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socalclimber
Mar 9, 2011, 7:06 PM
Post #33 of 70
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The attitude of handling the grigri is correct. Just because "auto" locking devices are supposed to, does not mean they will.
Years ago I was solo aid climbing with a grigri and while I was cleaning dirt and crap out of a shallow crack. Some of it managed to lodge in the device preventing the cam from operating properly. I found this out when a piece pulled and I started sliding down the rope slowly to the backup knot.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Mar 9, 2011, 7:12 PM)
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ClimbSoHigh
Mar 9, 2011, 7:38 PM
Post #34 of 70
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In reply to: That is correct. It definitely wasn't 100% free fall. It's about what you'd imagine if you tried to catch a fall with the climber's waist about 4-5' above the last bolt, but used your wrists to brake--which is, of course, what happened. Hard to say if I could feel the friction. I do know that I could hear the rope whizzing over a material (probably the belayer's jacket and/or wrist). With a complete free fall, I'm not sure if I would have heard that at all.
I'm just trying to think how much friction an arm jammed in the middle of the ropes would produce and I feel it would be very minimal at slowing a free fall. Possibly a kink in the rope temporarily jamming in the atc might have played a hand in your remarkable outcome? Any feeling of a slight snag for a second? Just trying to picture how anyone could crater from that high and literally walk away. You are a very luck man, but you already know that.
If I rub your belly, can I get some of your good luck?
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spikeddem
Mar 9, 2011, 7:53 PM
Post #35 of 70
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ClimbSoHigh wrote: In reply to: That is correct. It definitely wasn't 100% free fall. It's about what you'd imagine if you tried to catch a fall with the climber's waist about 4-5' above the last bolt, but used your wrists to brake--which is, of course, what happened. Hard to say if I could feel the friction. I do know that I could hear the rope whizzing over a material (probably the belayer's jacket and/or wrist). With a complete free fall, I'm not sure if I would have heard that at all. I'm just trying to think how much friction an arm jammed in the middle of the ropes would produce and I feel it would be very minimal at slowing a free fall. Possibly a kink in the rope temporarily jamming in the atc might have played a hand in your remarkable outcome? Any feeling of a slight snag for a second? Just trying to picture how anyone could crater from that high and literally walk away. You are a very luck man, but you already know that.
My acceleration towards the ground felt constant, but that's all I can really say. My guess is that the wrist of his left hand was compressing the brake side of the rope and that he did the same thing with his right hand but his coat protected him from the rope burn. With both wrists compressing the brake strand of the rope into his stomach, I can imagine a decrease in speed relative to a free fall (especially with the jacket).
In reply to: If I rub your belly, can I get some of your good luck?
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notapplicable
Mar 9, 2011, 10:21 PM
Post #36 of 70
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TradEddie wrote: It's hard to accept that even an experienced, competent, attentive belayer could make a mistake at just the wrong moment, but in my opinion that's the reality, and if you can't accept it, you shouldn't be climbing.
Yep. I like to say that there are really only two things that can go wrong while climbing. Anything and Everything.
People are fallible and there is no way to escape that fact.
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potreroed
Mar 9, 2011, 11:06 PM
Post #37 of 70
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socalclimber wrote: The attitude of handling the grigri is correct. Just because "auto" locking devices are supposed to, does not mean they will. Years ago I was solo aid climbing with a grigri and while I was cleaning dirt and crap out of a shallow crack. Some of it managed to lodge in the device preventing the cam from operating properly. I found this out when a piece pulled and I started sliding down the rope slowly to the backup knot.
After just once aid soloing with a gri-gri I went back to my trusty Soloist.
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socalclimber
Mar 9, 2011, 11:28 PM
Post #38 of 70
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Yeah, I had the soloist, I actually prefer the solo-aid more.
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bearbreeder
Mar 10, 2011, 8:49 AM
Post #39 of 70
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all it takes is one moment of inattentiveness .... even the most "experienced" can have a lapse in judgement
the worst is when someone starts talking to the belayer ... happens quite often in the gym or more popular crags ... usually its some guy trying to hit on some girl
just this weekend i caught a girl i knew take her brake hand off the gri gri when some guy i knew started chatting her up ... i quickly reminded her that her climber is now "dead"
if i see my belayer yaking away or flirting ... i just lower down and tell em to go flirt instead of climb ...
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sp115
Mar 10, 2011, 4:17 PM
Post #40 of 70
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bearbreeder wrote: all it takes is one moment of inattentiveness .... even the most "experienced" can have a lapse in judgement the worst is when someone starts talking to the belayer ... happens quite often in the gym or more popular crags ... usually its some guy trying to hit on some girl just this weekend i caught a girl i knew take her brake hand off the gri gri when some guy i knew started chatting her up ... i quickly reminded her that her climber is now "dead" if i see my belayer yaking away or flirting ... i just lower down and tell em to go flirt instead of climb ...
Yup, I typically don't make a scene, but have had to on occasion remind a new belayer, in a polite tone to simply STFU.
I always approach bealying with a slight sense of nervousness, or at least a heightened sense of focus. And truthfully, I hope that feeling never goes away.
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onrockandice
Mar 14, 2011, 10:57 PM
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It was the swing pitch. I had stacked rope over my left foot as I brought him up. Then as he climbed past I payed rope off the stack of 15' coils (70m rope stack), (my left foot had the rock in the pad at the front). I had tried to rub it on the ropes hanging down. I was belaying using my right hand as the brake hand. I had slid my hand down to the rope stack with my right hand and I had tried to get it with one finger. The ropes made it hard and I was almost dropping the stack. I tried reaching in with my left but when I did it put more pressure on whatever was poking me (rock/pebble) as I had to weight my left foot to lean that way. I rotated my foot outward so the pad was facing me. I reached over with my left hand and grabbed the brake side of the rope, I then lost my balance (I over-balanced to the left as my ankle rolled and my left foot dropped forcing me right again), the rope stack started to slide, I took my left hand to catch the rope stack and put my right hand back on the brake all at the same time. So for a second the brake was loose, I was off balance and my leader looked at me with a WTF expression. He saw the transfer, juggle and then me let go as I started to fall into the wall with my feet sliding downward.
In retrospect I should have let the rope stack fall and kept the rope under control. That would have avoided the "almost". We could have re-stacked the rope. As it happened he climbed up to a bolt clipped the bolt and then I fixed the whole mess, restacked the rope and he took off. This was when I had been climbing for about 11 months but had done lots of multi-pitch and about 200 outdoor climbs in total.
He showed me a different way to belay, stacking the rope over a sling I would extend up to the belay anchors which keeps my feet free in case I need to move to dodge a falling rock or debris. We never discussed my lapse but we did start me belaying differently on multi-pitch routes.
Verdict: Gumby
I already know this is not a defense of what happened. Someone asked me why I didn't use my other hand so I am just offering an answer, not a justification. Dumb is dumb. A core rule that is the backbone of a rope-team's trust was broken. I know that. I regret that and you know... it bothers me every time I put someone on belay. I kind of feel like I'm the idiot that played with a loaded gun and shot someone. I remember it every time I put someone on belay. I'm thankful for that reminder but many climbers are able to go through the entire gauntlet of climbing without *that* reminder.
I fully deserve whatever abuse you have. There is no excuse but I knew that when I posted it. I was willing to eat it all over again (crow that is) because it was an accident that didn't involve a ground-fall but there is no denying an accident happened. The story needs told as it (and the @$$ kicking) adds to the collective experience here.
It's a memory I cannot shake.
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majid_sabet
Mar 15, 2011, 12:00 AM
Post #42 of 70
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two questions
1- belay device brand/model
2-how old was your rope
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spikeddem
Mar 15, 2011, 12:54 AM
Post #43 of 70
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majid_sabet wrote: two questions 1- belay device brand/model 2-how old was your rope
I already gave as best a description of the belay device as I could (its in the OP). The rope was ~a year old. That said, I only use the 70m in areas where I will actually use the 70m (otherwise I use my 60m). Thus, I never use it in my home crags. It's probably been used on less than 50 pitches.
(This post was edited by spikeddem on Mar 15, 2011, 12:55 AM)
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majid_sabet
Mar 15, 2011, 2:36 AM
Post #44 of 70
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spikeddem wrote: majid_sabet wrote: two questions 1- belay device brand/model 2-how old was your rope I already gave as best a description of the belay device as I could (its in the OP). The rope was ~a year old. That said, I only use the 70m in areas where I will actually use the 70m (otherwise I use my 60m). Thus, I never use it in my home crags. It's probably been used on less than 50 pitches.
ok, just wanted to know ,if your rope was very new cause I have noticed newer ropes slip little more in tube type devices specially with the older generation of ATCs .
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 15, 2011, 2:37 AM)
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KeitaroHoshi
Mar 15, 2011, 7:09 AM
Post #45 of 70
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Be carefull with those figure 8 belay devices.
They can provide 'little to no friction' and unscrew your screwgate.
IF used incorrectly.
(This post was edited by KeitaroHoshi on Mar 15, 2011, 7:14 AM)
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erisspirit
Mar 15, 2011, 6:35 PM
Post #46 of 70
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KeitaroHoshi wrote: Be carefull with those figure 8 belay devices. They can provide 'little to no friction' and unscrew your screwgate. IF used incorrectly.
A figure 8 wasn't used in this accident
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boymeetsrock
Mar 15, 2011, 7:12 PM
Post #47 of 70
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Glad your OK spike. Good luck getting back on the horse.
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Stoves
Mar 16, 2011, 2:55 AM
Post #48 of 70
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Glad you are ok as well.
Scary how people who have been climbing for so long would make such a mistake!
On a higher note you can count on me to lead belay you after I take this one class!
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potreroed
Mar 22, 2011, 12:06 AM
Post #49 of 70
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I'll never understand why people drape the rope over a foot. I see that a lot and I just don't get it. When I'm on belay I want to be able to dance and move about.
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