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angeleyes
Mar 15, 2011, 4:38 AM
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I've been climbing for several years now, sport and trad. I still have a problem however where I can't feed slack to the leader, with an atc device, as quickly as I'd like...really only an issue for sport.
I prefer to not step forward / step back partly because I also do a fair amount of multipitch trad and I prefer to not get in that habit. Also I feel it shouldn't be necessary that my technique is lacking. Where I climb both indoor and out, routes are short and cruxes are often near the bottom so typically not the kind of places you can have much extra slack out to give you leeway.
I think part of the problem is I have a hard time not running my guide hand back down the rope after pulling out an armful. I find if I don't the belay device drops slightly after the.. yank slack let go, which makes the rope tend to want to bind as you go to pull out the next.
So I can not do that and it is faster to yank the next, but then I have problems with a brief bind because the belay device dropped slightly..usually I'm holding the brake strand at about a 90 degree angle to my body. (I'm also careful with rope management so I'm don't have to deal with any snags there)
My primary partner does have a jerky style that makes it hard to anticipate his clips much at all, and he likes to clip very high quite fast almost every time, about three arm lengths needed. He and I are about the same height however at six foot.
appreciate any help
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marc801
Mar 15, 2011, 5:31 AM
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angeleyes wrote: I've been climbing for several years now, sport and trad. I still have a problem however where I can't feed slack to the leader, with an atc device, as quickly as I'd like...really only an issue for sport. I prefer to not step forward / step back partly because I also do a fair amount of multipitch trad and I prefer to not get in that habit. Also I feel it shouldn't be necessary that my technique is lacking. Where I climb both indoor and out, routes are short and cruxes are often near the bottom so typically not the kind of places you can have much extra slack out to give you leeway. I think part of the problem is I have a hard time not running my guide hand back down the rope after pulling out an armful. I find if I don't the belay device drops slightly after the.. yank slack let go, which makes the rope tend to want to bind as you go to pull out the next. So I can not do that and it is faster to yank the next, but then I have problems with a brief bind because the belay device dropped slightly..usually I'm holding the brake strand at about a 90 degree angle to my body. (I'm also careful with rope management so I'm don't have to deal with any snags there) My primary partner does have a jerky style that makes it hard to anticipate his clips much at all, and he likes to clip very high quite fast almost every time, about three arm lengths needed. He and I are about the same height however at six foot. appreciate any help
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jt512
Mar 15, 2011, 5:59 AM
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angeleyes wrote: I've been climbing for several years now, sport and trad. I still have a problem however where I can't feed slack to the leader, with an atc device, as quickly as I'd like...really only an issue for sport. I prefer to not step forward / step back partly because I also do a fair amount of multipitch trad and I prefer to not get in that habit. Also I feel it shouldn't be necessary that my technique is lacking. Where I climb both indoor and out, routes are short and cruxes are often near the bottom so typically not the kind of places you can have much extra slack out to give you leeway. I think part of the problem is I have a hard time not running my guide hand back down the rope after pulling out an armful. I find if I don't the belay device drops slightly after the.. yank slack let go, which makes the rope tend to want to bind as you go to pull out the next. So I can not do that and it is faster to yank the next, but then I have problems with a brief bind because the belay device dropped slightly..usually I'm holding the brake strand at about a 90 degree angle to my body. (I'm also careful with rope management so I'm don't have to deal with any snags there) My primary partner does have a jerky style that makes it hard to anticipate his clips much at all, and he likes to clip very high quite fast almost every time, about three arm lengths needed. He and I are about the same height however at six foot. appreciate any help
That was pretty much incomprehensible, but if by "holding the brake strand at about a 90 degree angle to [your] body" you mean that you are holding the brake strand about 90 degrees from the lead strand while trying to yard out another armful of slack, then try holding the brake strand out in front of you, parallel to the lead strand, while yarding out more slack. Obviously (I hope) you have to bring your brake hand back down after yarding out slack—or while yarding out slack, if your partner falls.
Jay
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JimTitt
Mar 15, 2011, 7:37 AM
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marc801 wrote: Take a remedial belaying-101 course. And don't blame your partner for your lack of competence.
When giving rope, taking in and holding falls the belayer is in charge, not the leader. Jerky, snatchy high clippers are a pain in the butt and if they force the belayer out of his comfort zone may make him/her fumble or panic.
I cure them by leaving enough slack all the time so they can clip how they like, this usually makes them reconsider their "I´m the leader and you are just a slave attitude".
Habitual high-clippers are top-ropers anyway so worthy of little consideration.
Jim
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marc801
Mar 15, 2011, 2:19 PM
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JimTitt wrote: When giving rope, taking in and holding falls the belayer is in charge, not the leader. Jerky, snatchy high clippers are a pain in the butt...{/quote] True enough. JimTitt wrote: ... and if they force the belayer out of his comfort zone may make him/her fumble or panic. In which case the belayer is indeed incompetent, hence my statement to the OP.
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rangerrob
Mar 15, 2011, 9:58 PM
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It might be a function of a shitty rope and shitty belay device too. But really it sounds like you're just not doing something right. Can't help you unless I see what you're doing.
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JAB
Mar 16, 2011, 2:16 PM
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angeleyes wrote: I've been climbing for several years now, sport and trad. I still have a problem however where I can't feed slack to the leader, with an atc device, as quickly as I'd like...really only an issue for sport. I prefer to not step forward / step back partly because I also do a fair amount of multipitch trad and I prefer to not get in that habit. Also I feel it shouldn't be necessary that my technique is lacking. Where I climb both indoor and out, routes are short and cruxes are often near the bottom so typically not the kind of places you can have much extra slack out to give you leeway. I think part of the problem is I have a hard time not running my guide hand back down the rope after pulling out an armful. I find if I don't the belay device drops slightly after the.. yank slack let go, which makes the rope tend to want to bind as you go to pull out the next. So I can not do that and it is faster to yank the next, but then I have problems with a brief bind because the belay device dropped slightly..usually I'm holding the brake strand at about a 90 degree angle to my body. (I'm also careful with rope management so I'm don't have to deal with any snags there) My primary partner does have a jerky style that makes it hard to anticipate his clips much at all, and he likes to clip very high quite fast almost every time, about three arm lengths needed. He and I are about the same height however at six foot. appreciate any help
I didn't understand your description well enough to be able to say if there is a problem with your technique or not, but it is simply not possible to give slack super-fast with an ATC, especially if you are not willing to move forward. So, if your techique is ok, consider swithcing belay device to a Cinch, which is perfect for paying out slack fast.
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notapplicable
Mar 27, 2011, 6:41 PM
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This is something I struggled with in the past and regularly see other people struggle with, both in and outside of the gym. Unfortunately the most common solution is defaulting to the "sport loop" even when the climber is low on the route. I think that is a bad habit.
I'm also gonna disagree with the majority and say that the climber is not blameless. Fact is, you are a team and you have to work together. The climber can often move closer to the bolt and still have a good clipping stance. They can also pull up rope just a little slower which actually allows the belayer to give slack faster than if they keep binding up the device by yanking on the rope. Thats not to say you can't give slack fast enough without the cooperation of the climber, it's just better for everyone if the team works together, which is by definition what a team does.
For your part, there are three major things you can do.
1 - Bring the brake strand up parallel with the climbers side of the rope. Not doing this causes most of the problems people experience. Rope just can't move through the device fluidly without being near parallel.
2 - Pay attention to the climbers body language and start giving slack as soon as you see them reach for the rope. You already know they will try to pull the rope up quickly so getting a head start is important.
3 - Don't use both hands to feed rope through the device. Instead, keep your brake hand at a fixed distance (I go about the length of my forearm) above the belay device with a loose grip and pull slack through with your guide hand. Shuffling the brake hand up and down the rope compromises your ability to achieve a reliably secure grip on the rope if you need to brake mid-stroke and is really only helpful in reducing friction in the system if the strands are not parallel, which they should be.
This is what works for me. I hope you will find some element of it to be useful.
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notapplicable
Mar 27, 2011, 6:50 PM
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marc801 wrote: angeleyes wrote: I've been climbing for several years now, sport and trad. I still have a problem however where I can't feed slack to the leader, with an atc device, as quickly as I'd like...really only an issue for sport. I prefer to not step forward / step back partly because I also do a fair amount of multipitch trad and I prefer to not get in that habit. Also I feel it shouldn't be necessary that my technique is lacking. Where I climb both indoor and out, routes are short and cruxes are often near the bottom so typically not the kind of places you can have much extra slack out to give you leeway. I think part of the problem is I have a hard time not running my guide hand back down the rope after pulling out an armful. I find if I don't the belay device drops slightly after the.. yank slack let go, which makes the rope tend to want to bind as you go to pull out the next. So I can not do that and it is faster to yank the next, but then I have problems with a brief bind because the belay device dropped slightly..usually I'm holding the brake strand at about a 90 degree angle to my body. (I'm also careful with rope management so I'm don't have to deal with any snags there) My primary partner does have a jerky style that makes it hard to anticipate his clips much at all, and he likes to clip very high quite fast almost every time, about three arm lengths needed. He and I are about the same height however at six foot. appreciate any help Take a remedial belaying-101 course. And don't blame your partner for your lack of competence.
Poor technique does not always = incompetence. Sounds to me like angeleyes recognizes that something is lacking and wants to improve. Not exactly the hallmark of incompetence.
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marc801
Mar 27, 2011, 9:52 PM
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notapplicable wrote: Poor technique does not always = incompetence. Sounds to me like angeleyes recognizes that something is lacking and wants to improve. Not exactly the hallmark of incompetence.
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Kartessa
Mar 27, 2011, 10:57 PM
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marc801 wrote: notapplicable wrote: Poor technique does not always = incompetence. Sounds to me like angeleyes recognizes that something is lacking and wants to improve. Not exactly the hallmark of incompetence. In the case of belaying it is. Poor belaying technique can get partners maimed or killed. That's incompetence. It's good that angeleyes recognizes their incompetence and wants to improve before they hurt a partner.
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marc801
Mar 27, 2011, 11:23 PM
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Kartessa wrote: So if anyone with a legitimate question is incompetent, how do you pick a belayer?
Hearing this, I certainly wouldn't pick this belayer.
[Edit to increase the sarcasm quotient.]
(This post was edited by marc801 on Mar 27, 2011, 11:25 PM)
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notapplicable
Mar 27, 2011, 11:37 PM
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marc801 wrote: notapplicable wrote: Poor technique does not always = incompetence. Sounds to me like angeleyes recognizes that something is lacking and wants to improve. Not exactly the hallmark of incompetence. In the case of belaying it is. Poor belaying technique can get partners maimed or killed. That's incompetence. It's good that angeleyes recognizes their incompetence and wants to improve before they hurt a partner.
Getting a bit short roped during a clip might kill your send but that is about all it's gonna kill.
Please highlight for me the portion of the OP that points to his/her belay technique being dangerous. I've read it twice and all I see is someone who is inefficient at one element of belaying; giving sufficient slack to a climber who is clipping both fast and high.
Not an uncommon thing for people to struggle with. Especially when they are trying reconcile the very "safety" (HA!) oriented stuff they are taught in those "remedial belaying-101 courses", with real world belay duties.
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redlude97
Mar 28, 2011, 1:27 AM
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notapplicable wrote: marc801 wrote: notapplicable wrote: Poor technique does not always = incompetence. Sounds to me like angeleyes recognizes that something is lacking and wants to improve. Not exactly the hallmark of incompetence. In the case of belaying it is. Poor belaying technique can get partners maimed or killed. That's incompetence. It's good that angeleyes recognizes their incompetence and wants to improve before they hurt a partner. Please highlight for me the portion of the OP that points to his/her belay technique being dangerous. I've read it twice and all I see is someone who is inefficient at one element of belaying; giving sufficient slack to a climber who is clipping both fast and high. Not an uncommon thing for people to struggle with. Especially when they are trying reconcile the very "safety" (HA!) oriented stuff they are taught in those "remedial belaying-101 courses", with real world belay duties.
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notapplicable
Mar 28, 2011, 2:56 AM
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redlude97 wrote: notapplicable wrote: marc801 wrote: notapplicable wrote: Poor technique does not always = incompetence. Sounds to me like angeleyes recognizes that something is lacking and wants to improve. Not exactly the hallmark of incompetence. In the case of belaying it is. Poor belaying technique can get partners maimed or killed. That's incompetence. It's good that angeleyes recognizes their incompetence and wants to improve before they hurt a partner. Please highlight for me the portion of the OP that points to his/her belay technique being dangerous. I've read it twice and all I see is someone who is inefficient at one element of belaying; giving sufficient slack to a climber who is clipping both fast and high. Not an uncommon thing for people to struggle with. Especially when they are trying reconcile the very "safety" (HA!) oriented stuff they are taught in those "remedial belaying-101 courses", with real world belay duties. Getting shortroped can very often lead to a fall with lots of slack out, and that can lead to ground falls or hitting ledges. I don't expect to get shortroped ever by my belay partner, because I know they are competent in their belay technique with any device.
That might be overstating things a bit. I've seen people fall when shortroped mid-move, I've seen people fall while clipping due to no fault of the belayer and I've seen people drop the rope after not completing a clip when shortroped (sometimes falling afterwards), but I don't know that I've ever seen someone fall from being shortroped mid-clip with "lots of slack out". I'm sure it happens and it damn sure is not a good situation when near the ground but if a belayer can deal with other potential groundfall situations (of which there is no indication in the OP, that the OP cannot), they can handle that one as well.
Fact is, there is not enough information in the OP to know if the angeleyes is competent or not. Since all he/she did was ask for advice on improving a specific element of belaying, I'm not gonna jump to conclusions.
You are of course free to do the opposite.
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marc801
Mar 28, 2011, 5:00 AM
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notapplicable wrote: Fact is, there is not enough information in the OP to know if the angeleyes is competent or not. Since all he/she did was ask for advice on improving a specific element of belaying, I'm not gonna jump to conclusions.
In reply to: I've been climbing for several years now, sport and trad. I still have a problem however where I can't feed slack to the leader, with an atc device, as quickly as I'd like... really only an issue for sport.
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notapplicable
Mar 28, 2011, 5:26 AM
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Ok
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j_ung
Mar 28, 2011, 11:23 AM
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angeleyes wrote: ...really only an issue for sport. I prefer to not step forward / step back partly because I also do a fair amount of multipitch trad and I prefer to not get in that habit.
Issues of brake hand/guide/hand technique aside, if this is really only an problem when sport climbing (I'm assuming that means single pitch), then I think you actually should go ahead and start moving forward/back. It's not a liability to be able to adjust your belay technique to the situation at hand. That's often how I belay single-pitch climbs, and the habit doesn't carry over to multi-pitch climbing even slightly, since I can't move around when anchored, even if I wanted to.
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spikeddem
Mar 28, 2011, 2:43 PM
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marc801 wrote: notapplicable wrote: Fact is, there is not enough information in the OP to know if the angeleyes is competent or not. Since all he/she did was ask for advice on improving a specific element of belaying, I'm not gonna jump to conclusions. Actually, yes, there is more than enough info to judge competence. S/he wrote: In reply to: I've been climbing for several years now, sport and trad. I still have a problem however where I can't feed slack to the leader, with an atc device, as quickly as I'd like... really only an issue for sport. Still having problems after several years with the simplest belay device, and erroneously thinking it's only a sport issue. Sounds pretty incompetent to me.
Jumper to conclusions-er.
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 28, 2011, 3:17 PM
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angeleyes wrote: I've been climbing for several years now, sport and trad. I still have a problem however where I can't feed slack to the leader, with an atc device, as quickly as I'd like...really only an issue for sport.
First of all, define several. Do you mean 3? 7? 15? Second, although Marc's being a jerk, I don't think it's incompetent if you have been climbing for 3 years are not a great belayer yet. Just like any other skill it takes a while to perfect. If you have been climbing for closer to 15 and are just asking this question now, that would be weird, but 3-5, no. Third, I don't know why you think it's only an issue for sport, unless of course you and your friends are only falling while sport climbing and climbing easy stuff while trad climbing. But, for a lot of people, there is no difference in belaying between sport and trad. The difference is in the angle of rock, not whether you are clipping bolts or gear.
In reply to: I prefer to not step forward / step back partly because I also do a fair amount of multipitch trad and I prefer to not get in that habit.
Like someone already said(j-ung?), it's actually a GOOD habit to adapt to your situation. Being able to move can really help you feed and take in slack quickly.
In reply to: Also I feel it shouldn't be necessary that my technique is lacking. Where I climb both indoor and out, routes are short and cruxes are often near the bottom so typically not the kind of places you can have much extra slack out to give you leeway.
Your main goal is to keep your climber off the ground. There is a fine line between too much slack and not enough right around the second, sometimes third bolt. That is why it is important to work on feeding in and taking in slack quickly.
In reply to: I think part of the problem is I have a hard time not running my guide hand back down the rope after pulling out an armful. I find if I don't the belay device drops slightly after the.. yank slack let go, which makes the rope tend to want to bind as you go to pull out the next.
As you belay, keeping slight outward/upward pressure on both guide and brake hand should keep the belay device in the correct position so it doesn't drop down. Also, in doing this, you will prevent the locker for turning or from the gate rubbing against something and becoming unlocked.
In reply to: So I can not do that and it is faster to yank the next, but then I have problems with a brief bind because the belay device dropped slightly..usually I'm holding the brake strand at about a 90 degree angle to my body. (I'm also careful with rope management so I'm don't have to deal with any snags there)
To feed slack you should bring the ropes closer to parallel as you're feeding. This could be your problem.
In reply to: My primary partner does have a jerky style that makes it hard to anticipate his clips much at all, and he likes to clip very high quite fast almost every time, about three arm lengths needed. He and I are about the same height however at six foot. appreciate any help
Although, it is hard to belay for certain people, you should be able to work on your technique to a point where it won't matter or will become very minimal.
You could have a conversation with him/her. Her are some tips for the climber to make it easier to belay and for them to climb:
1. Always clip from the best stance. Sometimes this is below the clip, sometime right at the clip, or sometimes it might be better to make a move past it to a better hold and clip at your chest or even waist.
2.When clipping, try to pull rope out instead of up. It's usually less strenuous and it has the added benefit of making it easier for your belayer to see.
3. Try not to pull up rope in a jerky or too quick motion. It is much harder for the belayer to feed you slack smoothly.
A lot of bad clipping habits are born out of fear. Remember to relax. Before you think about clipping, find the best possible stance, breathe, relax, and THEN clip.
Josh
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notapplicable
Mar 28, 2011, 5:53 PM
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spikeddem wrote: marc801 wrote: notapplicable wrote: Fact is, there is not enough information in the OP to know if the angeleyes is competent or not. Since all he/she did was ask for advice on improving a specific element of belaying, I'm not gonna jump to conclusions. Actually, yes, there is more than enough info to judge competence. S/he wrote: In reply to: I've been climbing for several years now, sport and trad. I still have a problem however where I can't feed slack to the leader, with an atc device, as quickly as I'd like... really only an issue for sport. Still having problems after several years with the simplest belay device, and erroneously thinking it's only a sport issue. Sounds pretty incompetent to me. Way to not highlight the "as quickly as I'd like" portion. Jumper to conclusions-er.
Good catch and an important qualification. With respect to the current de-evolution of the discussion anyway.
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Khoi
Apr 2, 2011, 7:32 PM
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Reading the multiple specific tips and suggestions regarding belay technique given so far, I think it should be made clear exactly which belay technique the the person has in mind.
Pinch & Slide?
Pull,Lock,Grab,Slide?
(This post was edited by Khoi on Apr 2, 2011, 7:33 PM)
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gosharks
Apr 2, 2011, 10:48 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: 2.When clipping, try to pull rope out instead of up. It's usually less strenuous
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altelis
Apr 3, 2011, 1:08 AM
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its been my experience that when newer partner's are having a hard time feeding slack quickly out of a tube-style belay device one large contributing factor is having a very narrow-radius biner with a sharp angle bend pointing up at the device (imagine a D biner). this causes the device to either lock-up when the lead strand is pulled hard, or at the very least causes a lot of friction and slows up the feeding.
i think that newer belayers tend to select this position almost unconsciously because it provides a lot of friction while lowering, making them feel much more in control. doesn't help while lead belaying though...
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