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turninfool
Mar 28, 2011, 5:35 AM
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I've been reading the forums here for a few days, and I've come to the conclusion that as a n00b, I should not run right out and start working on my grip. However, I am going to attend a UCLIMB weekend in about 2 months, and I don't want to be toast in the first 15 minutes. I have been going to the gym for about a month and I have been focusing on a whole body workout, including cardio and a little extra focus on my core. (I know some of you don't like that term, but you know what I'm talking about, right?) So my question is, am I on the right track? Any other suggestions? Also, I do go to a local indoor wall 1-2 times a week.
Thx, e.
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jt512
Mar 28, 2011, 6:06 AM
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turninfool wrote: I've been reading the forums here for a few days, and I've come to the conclusion that as a n00b, I should not run right out and start working on my grip. However, I am going to attend a UCLIMB weekend in about 2 months, and I don't want to be toast in the first 15 minutes. I have been going to the gym for about a month and I have been focusing on a whole body workout, including cardio and a little extra focus on my core. (I know some of you don't like that term, but you know what I'm talking about, right?) So my question is, am I on the right track? Any other suggestions? Also, I do go to a local indoor wall 1-2 times a week. Thx, e.
I have no idea what UCLIMB is, but I suspect that if you've been going to a climbing gym one or two times per week you'll be ahead of the curve. Although you probably won't believe this, there is essentially nothing you can do in an ordinary weight gym that will benefit your climbing as much as climbing in a climbing gym. So, if giving up the regular gym means that you could do more sessions (up to four/week*) in a climbing gym, then give up the regular gym.
Jay
*More often than this is detrimental due to lack of recovery time between sessions.
(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 28, 2011, 6:07 AM)
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sandeld
Mar 28, 2011, 1:13 PM
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jt512 wrote: I have no idea what UCLIMB is, but I suspect that if you've been going to a climbing gym one or two times per week you'll be ahead of the curve. Although you probably won't believe this, there is essentially nothing you can do in an ordinary weight gym that will benefit your climbing as much as climbing in a climbing gym. So, if giving up the regular gym means that you could do more sessions (up to four/week*) in a climbing gym, then give up the regular gym. Jay *More often than this is detrimental due to lack of recovery time between sessions.
I have to disagree with the comment that "nothing you can do in a regular gym will help as much as going to a climbing gym."
As you will see by my most obvious noob'ish post count, my opinion probably won't hold much water, but here it is...
Grip training in a regular gym, when done specifically and common to climbing grips, will definitely transfer over to climbing. The regular gym, with these drills, are where you can add weight in excess of your bodyweight and move loads faster than you may be able to move them on the wall.
All we are looking to do in the gym is to create a muscular (or tendon) adaptation. This is done by increasing load, increasing speed, increasing reps, or decreasing time.
I do agree 100% that the way to become a better climber is to get on the climbing wall as frequently as possible while maintaining quality attempts.
The analogy that immediately popped in my head is football players.
They get better at playing football by practicing football. However, they get bigger and stronger while in the gym.
Climbing is no different, it's just a very different set of goals.
Hi, my name is David, and this is my first post. 
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johnwesely
Mar 28, 2011, 1:32 PM
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sandeld wrote: Grip training in a regular gym, when done specifically and common to climbing grips, will definitely transfer over to climbing. The regular gym, with these drills, are where you can add weight in excess of your bodyweight and move loads faster than you may be able to move them on the wall. All we are looking to do in the gym is to create a muscular (or tendon) adaptation. This is done by increasing load, increasing speed, increasing reps, or decreasing time.
Instead of giving a vague idea of what you could possible do in a traditional gym, give an example of a specific exercise that accomplishes those goals.
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jbro_135
Mar 28, 2011, 1:40 PM
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sandeld wrote: jt512 wrote: I have no idea what UCLIMB is, but I suspect that if you've been going to a climbing gym one or two times per week you'll be ahead of the curve. Although you probably won't believe this, there is essentially nothing you can do in an ordinary weight gym that will benefit your climbing as much as climbing in a climbing gym. So, if giving up the regular gym means that you could do more sessions (up to four/week*) in a climbing gym, then give up the regular gym. Jay *More often than this is detrimental due to lack of recovery time between sessions. I have to disagree with the comment that "nothing you can do in a regular gym will help as much as going to a climbing gym." As you will see by my most obvious noob'ish post count, my opinion probably won't hold much water, but here it is... Grip training in a regular gym, when done specifically and common to climbing grips, will definitely transfer over to climbing. The regular gym, with these drills, are where you can add weight in excess of your bodyweight and move loads faster than you may be able to move them on the wall. All we are looking to do in the gym is to create a muscular (or tendon) adaptation. This is done by increasing load, increasing speed, increasing reps, or decreasing time. I do agree 100% that the way to become a better climber is to get on the climbing wall as frequently as possible while maintaining quality attempts. The analogy that immediately popped in my head is football players. They get better at playing football by practicing football. However, they get bigger and stronger while in the gym. Climbing is no different, it's just a very different set of goals. Hi, my name is David, and this is my first post.
wrong
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sandeld
Mar 28, 2011, 1:45 PM
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Plate curls
Fingertip curling
Weighted pull-ups/chin-ups from varrying hand widths
Eagle loop pull-ups/chins with varrying number of fingers
Baseball/softball/PVC tubing pull-ups/chins
Thick bar deadlifts
Hub lift
Plate pinching
Euro pinch deadlift
Coin pinch deadlift
V-bar deadlifts of varrying bar widths
And because you need some stuff in opposing planes:
Bottom's up kettlebell press
Plate presses
Bench press
If you need videos of these, let me know, but they will have to wait until I can get to a not-work computer. LoL
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ceebo
Mar 28, 2011, 1:46 PM
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sandeld wrote: jt512 wrote: I have no idea what UCLIMB is, but I suspect that if you've been going to a climbing gym one or two times per week you'll be ahead of the curve. Although you probably won't believe this, there is essentially nothing you can do in an ordinary weight gym that will benefit your climbing as much as climbing in a climbing gym. So, if giving up the regular gym means that you could do more sessions (up to four/week*) in a climbing gym, then give up the regular gym. Jay *More often than this is detrimental due to lack of recovery time between sessions. I have to disagree with the comment that "nothing you can do in a regular gym will help as much as going to a climbing gym." As you will see by my most obvious noob'ish post count, my opinion probably won't hold much water, but here it is... Grip training in a regular gym, when done specifically and common to climbing grips, will definitely transfer over to climbing. The regular gym, with these drills, are where you can add weight in excess of your bodyweight and move loads faster than you may be able to move them on the wall. All we are looking to do in the gym is to create a muscular (or tendon) adaptation. This is done by increasing load, increasing speed, increasing reps, or decreasing time. I do agree 100% that the way to become a better climber is to get on the climbing wall as frequently as possible while maintaining quality attempts. The analogy that immediately popped in my head is football players. They get better at playing football by practicing football. However, they get bigger and stronger while in the gym. Climbing is no different, it's just a very different set of goals. Hi, my name is David, and this is my first post.
Did you bring your fire resistant suite?.. 
Well perhaps you have some points, but their are already things like campus boards and hang boards that pass over into climbing much better. I did experiment with some traditional weight training but quickly eliminated it (or found better alternitaves at least). For training off muscles i still use them, on top of press ups etc.
Typically people do not start using hang board/campus board until they perceive one of the benefits of such training to be a severe weakness in their actual climbing. That said, you need to put in some time climbing before you are able to better judge what those weaknesses truly are. Even at that, at least on this site the majority of people think such training is of little to no benefit. That opinion would be fine, but considering most of those people have not even tried or quickly gave up on such training.. i can't quite respect that opinion.
And again..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S6bc-p8HWU
3:20
Think i'm going to make that my sig.
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spikeddem
Mar 28, 2011, 2:20 PM
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sandeld wrote: Plate curls Fingertip curling Weighted pull-ups/chin-ups from varrying hand widths Eagle loop pull-ups/chins with varrying number of fingers Baseball/softball/PVC tubing pull-ups/chins Thick bar deadlifts Hub lift Plate pinching Euro pinch deadlift Coin pinch deadlift V-bar deadlifts of varrying bar widths And because you need some stuff in opposing planes: Bottom's up kettlebell press Plate presses Bench press If you need videos of these, let me know, but they will have to wait until I can get to a not-work computer. LoL
Wait, nevermind. I disagree with all of them. Why would you think it'd actually be as good as climbing?
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sandeld
Mar 28, 2011, 2:36 PM
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Because climbing is a skill, and strength is a component of climbing.
I don't believe I said it would be "better" than climbing. Maybe I did. Doing this on a phone, making sure The Man isn't watching me is too difficult to look back.
All I'm trying to say is that regular gym workouts definitely have a place in a climber's schedule.
If your strength outweighs your skill, spend more time on the wall. (I just started 3 months ago and this is where I'm at.)
If your skill outweighs your strength, take more time (read: *NOT* ALL of your time) in the regular gym getting stronger.
When I started 3 months ago, I was like most noobs, dominating 5.6's and 5.7's. I'm now doing 5.10's, and wouldn't be completely embarrassed to try a 5.11. (all indoor climbing, mind you) Needless to say, my skill is lacking; therfore, I spend less and less time in the regular gym for my own workouts.
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csproul
Mar 28, 2011, 2:50 PM
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sandeld wrote: Because climbing is a skill, and strength is a component of climbing. I don't believe I said it would be "better" than climbing. Maybe I did. Doing this on a phone, making sure The Man isn't watching me is too difficult to look back. All I'm trying to say is that regular gym workouts definitely have a place in a climber's schedule. If your strength outweighs your skill, spend more time on the wall. (I just started 3 months ago and this is where I'm at.) If your skill outweighs your strength, take more time (read: *NOT* ALL of your time) in the regular gym getting stronger. When I started 3 months ago, I was like most noobs, dominating 5.6's and 5.7's. I'm now doing 5.10's, and wouldn't be completely embarrassed to try a 5.11. (all indoor climbing, mind you) Needless to say, my skill is lacking; therfore, I spend less and less time in the regular gym for my own workouts.
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spikeddem
Mar 28, 2011, 2:54 PM
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sandeld wrote: I don't believe I said it would be "better" than climbing. Maybe I did.
I didn't say you said it was better. I said that you said it was as good as actually climbing, which is, of course, both what you did say and also completely wrong.
In reply to: All I'm trying to say is that regular gym workouts definitely have a place in a climber's schedule.
Insofar as getting better at climbing due to strength gains, no, no it does not. No strength gains in a regular gym will compare to the strength+technique gains from climbing. Not even close.
In reply to: I just started 3 months ago
Then it is probably still time to listen instead of give advice.
In reply to: If your skill outweighs your strength, take more time (read: *NOT* ALL of your time) in the regular gym getting stronger.
Do you not think that simultaneous sport-specific strength gains and technique gains are more valuable than solely non-sport specific strength gains?
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sandeld
Mar 28, 2011, 3:00 PM
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Do you think the two are mutually exclusive?
Why are strength moves easy for me, but skilled moves so difficult?
Could it be that I have trained non-specific strength movements for most of my life?
What is the time period before I can give advice? What if I were able to climb 5.11's on my first day? Would that have made my advice more accurate?
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spikeddem
Mar 28, 2011, 3:08 PM
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sandeld wrote: Do you think the two are mutually exclusive?
Yes. Your body needs time to recover from training. Moreover, it doesn't matter whether they are or not. The fact of the matter is that what you originally said--that climbing and general strength training are equally conducive to climbing harder--is wrong whether or not you can do both.
In reply to: Why are strength moves easy for me, but skilled moves so difficult?
Because you spent time in a regular gym, and not in a climbing gym.
In reply to: Could it be that I have trained non-specific strength movements for most of my life?
You're correct, it's because of the time you wasted in a regular gym rather than being in a climbing gym.
In reply to: What is the time period before I can give advice? What if I were able to climb 5.11's on my first day? Would that have made my advice more accurate?
The accuracy of your advice determines when you should start giving advice. Unless someone is jump started by a book--like The Self Coached Climber--there is a strong correlation between experience and quality of advice.
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csproul
Mar 28, 2011, 3:11 PM
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sandeld wrote: ...What is the time period before I can give advice?
sandeld wrote: What if I were able to climb 5.11's on my first day? Would that have made my advice more accurate?
(This post was edited by csproul on Mar 28, 2011, 3:17 PM)
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epoch
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Mar 28, 2011, 3:15 PM
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Moved from Beginners.
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ceebo
Mar 28, 2011, 3:37 PM
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sandeld wrote: Do you think the two are mutually exclusive? Why are strength moves easy for me, but skilled moves so difficult? Could it be that I have trained non-specific strength movements for most of my life? What is the time period before I can give advice? What if I were able to climb 5.11's on my first day? Would that have made my advice more accurate?
I personaly quite agree with you. But, at some point within the next year or so muscle weight will hold you back. Your current strength may well give you a head start over a rival climber of no such training but once you both spend enough time training technique and making specific finger strength gains etc.. his strength to weight ratio will leave you for dust.
On the plus side, if you are to get serious about your climbing and allow unneeded muscle groups to shrink, you could implement your years of experience in a regimented climbing specific training plan. That is also a big plus over a new climber who may not be so disciplined.
If you do not wish to do that in the future, then i guess you will have to get use to skinny/mid set people on sighting problems/routes you have been working for sessions. If not sooner you will feel a large negative hit of too much muscle weight around v5/5.12 area, regardless of technique.
For perspective if you need it, i remember adding 20 pound weight to a dead hang (i wanted to test), i lasted 6 seconds or so. That same rung i was able to get around 25 seconds with no added weight.
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spikeddem
Mar 28, 2011, 4:00 PM
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epoch wrote: Moved from Beginners.
THIS IS A GREAT INJUSTICE
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jt512
Mar 28, 2011, 4:21 PM
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spikeddem wrote: epoch wrote: Moved from Beginners. Why? It's a beginner question.
Yeah, since when has one beginner giving advice to another not been the quintessential Beginner forum thread?
Jay
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jt512
Mar 28, 2011, 4:35 PM
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sandeld wrote: Why are strength moves easy for me, but skilled moves so difficult?
Why do you think that there are "strength moves" and "skilled moves"? I can assure you that there are women who climb 5.12 but can't do a single pull-up, but could do your hardest "strength moves" (and then some) with ease. Conversely, what makes you think that a climber with well-developed sport-specific strength couldn't power his way through your "skilled moves," if, for some reason, he chose to forgo doing the move more efficiently?
In reply to: Could it be that I have trained non-specific strength movements for most of my life?
Yeah, so you can pull your way up some easy routes inefficiently. Big deal. What, even, is the point of doing so?
In reply to: What is the time period before I can give advice? What if I were able to climb 5.11's on my first day? Would that have made my advice more accurate?
Well, you weren't climbing 5.11 your first day. By your own admission, you were climbing 5.6–5.7, which goes to show exactly what your background in weight training was good for.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 28, 2011, 11:33 PM)
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turninfool
Mar 28, 2011, 5:29 PM
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Great discussion guys, thanks for the advice. I'm going to still workout my entire body, for overall health, but I'm also going to get in the gym more.
e.
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jbro_135
Mar 28, 2011, 5:53 PM
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turninfool wrote: Great discussion guys, thanks for the advice. I'm going to still workout my entire body, for overall health, but I'm also going to get in the gym more. e.
Going to the gym for overall health is a great idea, good for you. It may help prevent injury and improve your posture, keeping you from looking like an ape. Just don't expect it to help your climbing like sandeld thinks it will.
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climb4free
Mar 28, 2011, 7:01 PM
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sandeld wrote: The analogy that immediately popped in my head is football players. They get better at playing football by practicing football. However, they get bigger and stronger while in the gym. Climbing is no different, it's just a very different set of goals. Hi, my name is David, and this is my first post.
Your football analogy has the sound of being correct, but as a former college player and H.S. coach, I'd like to take it another direction.
Linemen example: Which form of resistance leg training will more benefit in gameplay? Squats & Deadlifts <or> Pushing the sled with your coach riding on top?
Exactly! Just like the coorelation between wrist curls and actual climbing.
So the question is not will it help. It likely would help to work out in a weight room. However, it WILL NOT help AS MUCH for the time invested as ACTUAL CLIMBING.
After you climb regularly for 3 years (not 3 months), see if you haven't changed your mind on your own.
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cacalderon
Mar 28, 2011, 11:28 PM
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keep climbing as much as you can.
concentrate on using your feet... it will help you in the near future.
cheers
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