Forums: Climbing Information: Accident and Incident Analysis:
Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Accident and Incident Analysis

Premier Sponsor:

 


k.l.k


Mar 22, 2011, 3:44 PM
Post #1 of 22 (6408 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 9, 2007
Posts: 1190

Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

The video has been making the rounds: It is a slick retrospective of a leader fall from Vampire done by the folks involved.

It is embedded here in Will Gadd's blog, which also contains the best analysis:

http://gravsports.blogspot.com/...t-rock-climbing.html


Gmburns2000


Mar 22, 2011, 4:22 PM
Post #2 of 22 (6377 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15135

Re: [k.l.k] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Um, wow.

I know nothing about ice climbing, but that was a serious fall. Dude was lucky to have that doc there and to not have been hurt more than he was.

Just a question, what is more dangerous in an ice-climbing fall: the fall itself (i.e. - banging on the ice, pro popping, etc), or the swinging tools that are coming down with you and / or the crampons?

I know, "it depends" but what do ice climbers really care about more, generally speaking?


Frozen13


Mar 22, 2011, 6:49 PM
Post #3 of 22 (6346 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 14, 2010
Posts: 18

Re: [k.l.k] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Why was there 30ft of run out? He knew he was getting tired and possibly in trouble so he has a 30ft run out?


Gmburns2000


Mar 22, 2011, 7:45 PM
Post #4 of 22 (6327 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15135

Re: [Frozen13] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Frozen13 wrote:
Why was there 30ft of run out? He knew he was getting tired and possibly in trouble so he has a 30ft run out?

read the blog he posted. this was covered fairly well.


Frozen13


Mar 22, 2011, 8:23 PM
Post #5 of 22 (6308 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 14, 2010
Posts: 18

Re: [Gmburns2000] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Gmburns2000 wrote:
Frozen13 wrote:
Why was there 30ft of run out? He knew he was getting tired and possibly in trouble so he has a 30ft run out?

read the blog he posted. this was covered fairly well.

I read it and it doesn't cover why there was 30ft of run out. It talks about placing screws every 5ft if thats what you need to do, which it seems this guy needed to do that.


uni_jim


Mar 22, 2011, 8:36 PM
Post #6 of 22 (6297 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 27, 2008
Posts: 429

Re: [k.l.k] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

See this sort of shit far too often, luckily none of the fools I've seen leading above their ability have fallen... yet.

His right foot must have been shit to have been knocked out by the rope! And how is holding onto the top anchor (is that what it was?) easier than holding onto an ice tool with leashes???


uni_jim


Mar 22, 2011, 8:38 PM
Post #7 of 22 (6295 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 27, 2008
Posts: 429

Re: [Frozen13] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Frozen13 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Frozen13 wrote:
Why was there 30ft of run out? He knew he was getting tired and possibly in trouble so he has a 30ft run out?

read the blog he posted. this was covered fairly well.

I read it and it doesn't cover why there was 30ft of run out. It talks about placing screws every 5ft if thats what you need to do, which it seems this guy needed to do that.

from will's blog:

Quote, "Yeah, I have great faith in the equipment now, and it gives me even more reason to put pro in." This is just wrong on so many levels, but first of all it misses the entire point that ice climbing isn't about the pro, it's about first not falling off. Have enough pro so when something really surprising happens you don't die (and he did have enough pro in for that), but thinking that, "Hey, the pro works, great, I can fall off more now!" is just wrong. The thinking should be, "Damn, I fell off, and only through incredible luck did I not completely fuck myself up for the rest of my life, I need to re-think my approach to ice climbing."


Frozen13


Mar 22, 2011, 8:57 PM
Post #8 of 22 (6274 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 14, 2010
Posts: 18

Re: [uni_jim] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

uni_jim wrote:
Frozen13 wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Frozen13 wrote:
Why was there 30ft of run out? He knew he was getting tired and possibly in trouble so he has a 30ft run out?

read the blog he posted. this was covered fairly well.

I read it and it doesn't cover why there was 30ft of run out. It talks about placing screws every 5ft if thats what you need to do, which it seems this guy needed to do that.

from will's blog:

Quote, "Yeah, I have great faith in the equipment now, and it gives me even more reason to put pro in." This is just wrong on so many levels, but first of all it misses the entire point that ice climbing isn't about the pro, it's about first not falling off. Have enough pro so when something really surprising happens you don't die (and he did have enough pro in for that), but thinking that, "Hey, the pro works, great, I can fall off more now!" is just wrong. The thinking should be, "Damn, I fell off, and only through incredible luck did I not completely fuck myself up for the rest of my life, I need to re-think my approach to ice climbing."

Totally agree, but this has nothing to do with the climber having 30ft of run out. Its obvious that the climber was not good enough to not fall off, he proved that. The climber himself said he was getting tired and knew he was getting into a dangerous a position, yet was run out 30ft. It just mind blowing, that he knew he was in danger and didn't place a screw A LOT sooner.

The blog is a great job discussing the fall and is something any who even has a thought of leading on ice should read.


spikeddem


Mar 22, 2011, 9:32 PM
Post #9 of 22 (6253 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 6319

Re: [uni_jim] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

I have no idea where anyone is getting this "60 foot fall" idea from (including the people in the video). There's certainly no 30 foot runout. Unless the man is 12 feet tall, then his pro is ~15 below him just before he falls. This fall was like 30 feet.


moose_droppings


Mar 22, 2011, 10:08 PM
Post #10 of 22 (6239 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3352

Re: [k.l.k] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Wow, some scary shit there man.

I have yet to take a fall on ice, but the idea of my tools swinging around or my crampon sticking and snapping my leg scares the crap out of me.

I do climb ice in what I believe is total control, but I'm still going to start putting in more screws more often.
He is one lucky SOB.


rtwilli4


Mar 23, 2011, 2:34 AM
Post #11 of 22 (6190 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 1867

Re: [k.l.k] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Glad to see he was OK and that they seemed to handle everything pretty well.

Just out of curiosity, how hard is "4+" in ice climbing? I know you can't compare it to 5.10 or anything but I just don't really know ice by looking at it, as I'm not an ice climber.

I have climbed a few easy ice pitches on TR and always said that I didn't like the idea of the axes being tethered to my arms. It was scary seeing those things flying around.

Glad you're OK buddy!


antiqued


Mar 23, 2011, 1:10 PM
Post #12 of 22 (6083 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 18, 2005
Posts: 243

Re: [spikeddem] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Objects in your video may be larger than they appear.

The climb really is ~100' high (I used 2 ropes to rap last year, led past the midpoint of a 60m to get to the rap tree). The leader is almost at the top. Estimate how much he is lowered after being caught in the replay. Seems like less than 30' to me, which means at least 50' of fall. If he is as little as 20 feet out, rather than 15', that's 40' + slack + stretch.


notapplicable


Mar 23, 2011, 8:40 PM
Post #13 of 22 (5959 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17766

Re: [antiqued] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

That was fucking epic!

They may have made a lot of mistakes that day but the camera work wasn't one of em. That was a great capture of a rare event.


majid_sabet


Mar 23, 2011, 9:45 PM
Post #14 of 22 (5942 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8352

Re: [k.l.k] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

overall, it was a good movie


Paul_W


Mar 24, 2011, 7:53 PM
Post #15 of 22 (5845 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 13, 2010
Posts: 30

Re: [majid_sabet] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Thanks for the post. that was a good video. I have climbed a fair amount of ice and many years ago climbed that route. for the record i have one lead fall on waterfall ice. in the adirondaks when i was about 20 (30yago). put a six inch chouinard screw in a little pocket and got about 10-12 feet above and flamed. while falling i turned to face out, received a circular bruise on my ass and damaged ego but no other injuries. the screw held fine. the climb was steep enough that my feet did not hit anything which to me is the biggest danger in an ice climb leader fall. if you look carefully at the video you can see plenty of places where the leader could have put pro to lessen his fall. most people climb up to a steep part then put in pro as high as possible. this leader protected way below the step and then ran it out to the top where he attempted to put his last piece then flamed before he could clip it. that said the video shows him cartwheeling away from the cliff which is good form and probably contributed to him being able to walk away. note there are plenty of times when if you have a piece in and are maxed you should consider just clipping directly to that piece, or clipping directly to your axe in a good placement and resting to avoid a fall. again good video and maybe some lessens to be learned for ice leaders. glad he walked away.


mikebee


Mar 24, 2011, 8:52 PM
Post #16 of 22 (5831 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 190

Re: [Paul_W] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I just watched that movie again. Wow, scary to see a leader ice fall, and also to see the number of mistakes that the climbing party made in the lead up to it.

I think my thoughts have all been covered by others in the Gadd blog and in this forum, but I have one question, slightly off topic too, but is that climb really a WI4+?

I've got limited ice experience, I've been out climbing in the Canmore area for the last 3 weeks, and I've climbed at a few places, but the climb in that movie doesn't look sustained enough to be a 4+ compared to some of the 4s that we've been on in the last couple of weeks. Is it a case of the movie not showing the steepness properly, or is the grading softer out east, or something else?


sungam


Mar 26, 2011, 9:23 AM
Post #17 of 22 (5692 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26586

Re: [k.l.k] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Wow, I pooped my pants a little when he fell.

Lucky, lucky guy.


fresh


Mar 30, 2011, 8:06 AM
Post #18 of 22 (5433 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 6, 2007
Posts: 1199

Re: [spikeddem] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

the name of the route is Dracula, not Vampire!

spikeddem wrote:
I have no idea where anyone is getting this "60 foot fall" idea from (including the people in the video). There's certainly no 30 foot runout. Unless the man is 12 feet tall, then his pro is ~15 below him just before he falls. This fall was like 30 feet.
it might look foreshortened on camera, but the route is about 110 feet tall. the fall is at least 60 feet.

as far as the grades go, keep in mind that they're on the NEI scale. I've never climbed in canada, but I suspect their WI scale is tougher than the NEI scale. personally I think Dracula can be (NEI) 3+ to 4+ depending on conditions and how hooked-out it is. sometimes it's plastic and hooked out, but when it gets melted out in late season it can create some tricky overhangs. I climbed the right side a month ago at 3+, and a few days ago in 4+ condition. so it goes.

this might be the most discussed ice climbing accident of all time. those guys made nearly every mistake you can make.


shoo


Mar 30, 2011, 10:37 AM
Post #19 of 22 (5365 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501

Re: [fresh] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

To add to the info on this route, Dracula can be a little different than it seems sometimes. I have done this route several times. The corner he was going up is almost always flowing at least a little. That can make screw placements difficult, and occasionally impossible.

On one occasion this year, I had to make the same exact runout. The entire dihedral was a dripping, featured, rotten mess. Plenty of great stances and pick placements for those that know where to look, but all the solid spots were machine-gunned through with deep, loose screw holes hardly worth the time to rebore. There was decent ice outside the dihedral, but far more difficult climbing than I was willing to do in those conditions. I opted to stay in the safety of good stances in a dihedral rather than increasing fall risk outside it.

It's possible, though unlikely, that this is what happened here.


rangerrob


Mar 30, 2011, 5:36 PM
Post #20 of 22 (5294 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 7, 2003
Posts: 641

Re: [shoo] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Shoo, given all the other beginner mistakes that were made (harness not doulbed back, belayer tied in directly below the climb, using a Gigi improperly), I doubt even if there was perfect ice that he would have put more screws in.


Colinhoglund


Mar 31, 2011, 12:11 AM
Post #21 of 22 (5248 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 4, 2008
Posts: 338

Re: [k.l.k] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Let me get this strait, I love ice climbing (as cold, wet and scary as it isTongue). I will admit to taking one fall. It was my second lead, and lucky I only ended up with a badly bruised ankle (and ego). And it is because of this experience that I have every right to say DON'T FALL ON LEAD ON ICE EVER when talking to over confident gumbies. Falling almost never happens and is a BAD IDEA, period. I have heard so many guys say "hey I could have lead that" after their 2nd day on ice TRing that it makes me sick. I have had folks tell me they can clean WI5 no problem, then suck out loud on grade 3. Seriously people have some humility. Being humble means seeing yourself accurately, not looking down on yourself. Be honest about your accomplishments. It's better to admit your a gumby, then climb like a pro; then act like a pro and climb like a gumby. Rant over!

***Comments directed at movie and not the OP***


shoo


Mar 31, 2011, 6:58 AM
Post #22 of 22 (5191 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501

Re: [rangerrob] Ice Climbing Fall, Video and Analysis [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

rangerrob wrote:
Shoo, given all the other beginner mistakes that were made (harness not doulbed back, belayer tied in directly below the climb, using a Gigi improperly), I doubt even if there was perfect ice that he would have put more screws in.

Oh absolutely. These guys fucked up bad and were way out of their element. I am simply pointing out to all of those who are asking why he didn't get a screw in earlier that it isn't always possible to get a screw everywhere you would like, or occasionally, anywhere at all.


Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook