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bearbreeder


Mar 31, 2011, 4:30 PM
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ice climbers stuck on rappel knot
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http://www.banffcragandcanyon.com/...splay.aspx?e=3049765

knowing how to pass a knot is an essential skill...


Ice climbers escape injury after late night rescue
By Corrie DiManno
Posted 2 days ago
Parks Canada officials rescued two ice climbers Sunday night who were stranded for several hours on the Weeping Wall off the Icefields Parkway.

Visitor safety specialist Brian Webster said the climbers from Edmonton cut their rope in half after it became stuck during their rappel. They then tied the two pieces of rope together, creating a knot in the rope that the first climber on the descent could not bypass.

Parks was called at around 8 p.m. arriving at the base of the wall at about 11 p.m., and then climbed to the top of the route to rappel down to the climbers. It was 1:30 a.m. when the team reached the climber who had been stuck on a completely vertical plane, hanging from his rope and suspended by his harness since approximately 6 p.m.

Webster said he was stuck in the worst section, because the options to climb up or slide down were not available. The other climber had been stranded on a ledge by the upper anchor. After guidance from the team on how to bypass the knot in their rope, both climbers reached the ground at 3 a.m.

"The party was skilled enough to climb the waterfall, but didn't have the depth of knowledge of the rope system for unexpected situations," Webster said. "If you are a beginner or don't have the depth of knowledge or experience, get that knowledge or go with someone more experienced than yourself."



bill123


Mar 31, 2011, 5:47 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] ice climbers stuck on rappel knot [In reply to]
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Glad they are ok. I can't picture how a rope gets stuck during a rappel so that cutting the rope and then tying a knot in it is a solution. Can someone explain?


gimmeslack


Mar 31, 2011, 6:33 PM
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Re: [bill123] ice climbers stuck on rappel knot [In reply to]
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Aw man, not another one...
Let's hope Mr.Gadd doesn't see this.Shocked


Rudmin


Mar 31, 2011, 6:53 PM
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Re: [bill123] ice climbers stuck on rappel knot [In reply to]
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bill123 wrote:
Glad they are ok. I can't picture how a rope gets stuck during a rappel so that cutting the rope and then tying a knot in it is a solution. Can someone explain?

Somewhere along the rappel, probably near the top, there is a rope sized crack in an overhang. As the first person passes by this section, the rope slips into the crack and the abseiler's weight on the overhang jams it as far in as it can possible go.

The next person down gets to the jam and can't get the rope free. So they slip some rope from the free side to get further down and chop their rope above and below the jam, tie the two ends together and then get stuck on the knot right below the overhang. There is probably a lot of swearing and yelling involved too.


Partner rgold


Mar 31, 2011, 7:54 PM
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Re: [Rudmin] ice climbers stuck on rappel knot [In reply to]
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Is this the place to share an optimal knot-passing strategy?

Start off by pulling up the rappel ropes and installing the atc just below the knot. Clip the atc to the harness belay loop and tie it off as for self-rescue.

Set up a rappel using a Munter hitch on a locker extended to head level from the harness. Rappel on this. As the knot approaches the munter biner, the atc will be weighted and the rappeller will be hanging on the tied-off atc. Unclip the extender sling (minor struggle possible here) and pop the loaded munter carabiner off the rope. Release the tied-off atc and continue down.

Fast to set up, secure and pretty goof-proof, no prussik knots or foot slings involved.


potreroed


Mar 31, 2011, 9:12 PM
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Re: [rgold] ice climbers stuck on rappel knot [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Is this the place to share an optimal knot-passing strategy?

Start off by pulling up the rappel ropes and installing the atc just below the knot. Clip the atc to the harness belay loop and tie it off as for self-rescue.

Set up a rappel using a Munter hitch on a locker extended to head level from the harness. Rappel on this. As the knot approaches the munter biner, the atc will be weighted and the rappeller will be hanging on the tied-off atc. Unclip the extender sling (minor struggle possible here) and pop the loaded munter carabiner off the rope. Release the tied-off atc and continue down.

Fast to set up, secure and pretty goof-proof, no prussik knots or foot slings involved.

Excellent! It's amazing how one never stops learning new tricks in this game.


bearbreeder


Mar 31, 2011, 9:31 PM
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nice ... learn something as well

in this particular case though i would have just set up a single line rap if im reading the facts in the article right ...


bill123


Apr 1, 2011, 4:58 AM
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My favorite part about this whole episode is that after being trapped (by their own ignorance) for 5 1/2 hours, the climbers had to sit through a lesson in passing a knot before being let go.


majid_sabet


Apr 1, 2011, 7:08 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] ice climbers stuck on rappel knot [In reply to]
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1-rap to where the knot is
2-set a prussic above knot and attach it to belay loop
3-disconnect your rap device and sh*t
4-Put the rap device below the knot
5-take the rope below your rap device and wrap it min 3 times over your right or left feet
6-stand on the feet
7- Disconnect prusicc and undo the wrap on your feet
8-continue your rap

This whole thing should take no more than 1 minute in day time or night time

if you do this in 3 min or longer, you are a n00b

and, attach a fig 8, 5 feet below the second rope to your harness ( tie short) in case you doo doo and fall while doing wabitt passing knot method


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 1, 2011, 7:12 AM)


notapplicable


Apr 1, 2011, 7:25 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] ice climbers stuck on rappel knot [In reply to]
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Since no one was hurt (other than their pride, I'm sure) I would like to be the first to say...

HAHA!


aprice00


Apr 1, 2011, 8:20 AM
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potreroed wrote:
rgold wrote:
Is this the place to share an optimal knot-passing strategy?

Start off by pulling up the rappel ropes and installing the atc just below the knot. Clip the atc to the harness belay loop and tie it off as for self-rescue.

Set up a rappel using a Munter hitch on a locker extended to head level from the harness. Rappel on this. As the knot approaches the munter biner, the atc will be weighted and the rappeller will be hanging on the tied-off atc. Unclip the extender sling (minor struggle possible here) and pop the loaded munter carabiner off the rope. Release the tied-off atc and continue down.

Fast to set up, secure and pretty goof-proof, no prussik knots or foot slings involved.

Are you wrapping the munter on a weighted rope?


theguy


Apr 1, 2011, 9:04 AM
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aprice00 wrote:
potreroed wrote:
rgold wrote:
Is this the place to share an optimal knot-passing strategy?

Start off by pulling up the rappel ropes and installing the atc just below the knot. Clip the atc to the harness belay loop and tie it off as for self-rescue.

Set up a rappel using a Munter hitch on a locker extended to head level from the harness. Rappel on this. As the knot approaches the munter biner, the atc will be weighted and the rappeller will be hanging on the tied-off atc. Unclip the extender sling (minor struggle possible here) and pop the loaded munter carabiner off the rope. Release the tied-off atc and continue down.

Fast to set up, secure and pretty goof-proof, no prussik knots or foot slings involved.

Are you wrapping the munter on a weighted rope?


rgold wrote:
Start off by pulling up the rappel ropes...Set up a rappel using a Munter hitch

P.S. Nice cheesetitting!

P.P.S. Nice tip


theguy


Apr 1, 2011, 9:07 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
in this particular case though i would have just set up a single line rap if im reading the facts in the article right ...

Since this strategy uses a munter hitch to rappel, I'm betting it is a single line rap, if I'm reading rgold's method right...


Partner rgold


Apr 1, 2011, 9:40 AM
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Re: [theguy] ice climbers stuck on rappel knot [In reply to]
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TG, the method works for single or double rope raps. (Well, maybe if you are using a fat single and a small munter biner there might be problems---I haven't tried that configuration). The munter is not put on a loaded line; I thought that was clear from my description. It is, however, popped off a loaded line, a cool trick that is not as well-known as it should be, in my opinion.

I think the munter pop method is both faster and safer than the standard approach posted by Majid. It doesn't require a prussik sling and doesn't require a backup knot to protect you during the period when your only attachment to the rope is a single prussik.

Standing up on a foot wrap is strenuous and the raps themselves are insecure. You will probably want to hold on to the rope below the raps to keep them from dumping, and you still have to hang on to the rope above with the same hand to keep from tipping over.

If the prussik has jammed you might be in for a struggle, since you only have one free hand to work on it. If you are doing all this in the dark while free-hanging in a downpour, it won't be much fun.

Meanwhile, that backup knot has to be tied far enough along the rope that there is room for the foot raps and loop of rope back up from the foot to your hand. That means if something goes wrong and you do fall on the backup, it will be a considerable drop.

The method I described avoids all this drama. The only advantage to the standard method is that you can use it over and over again to pass multiple knots. If there is only one knot to pass, the standard method seems inferior to me.


Alpine07


Apr 1, 2011, 4:54 PM
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I think I like your method, with a few slight modifications of course. First off, in the essence of saving time, why not just avoid the whole munter part, and just huck off the cliff to get caught where the atc is placed? Should be enough rope out to be a soft landing. All I see is benefit to this method. Tests the anchor for the guy coming next, quick and efficient, no fiddling with gear mid rappel, and fun! Why pass a knot when you can avoid the whole process entirely? I mean, come on guys.


Partner robdotcalm


Apr 2, 2011, 9:20 PM
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rgold wrote:
TG, the method works for single or double rope raps.
I've never heard of a situation in which one has to pass a knot in a double rope rappel. I suppose if one tied together 2 ropes one much shorter than the other, but never heard of that happening

In reply to:
I think the munter pop method is both faster and safer than the standard approach posted by Majid. It doesn't require ...a backup knot to protect you during the period when your only attachment to the rope is a single prussik.

I'll test this method, but I'll sure have the backup knot in place. Fiddling with gear in the middle of rappel is too unnerving and possibility of things going wrong not to use that extra precaution.

I've never had to pass a knot in the field. Just out of curiosity has anyone out there been forced to do that? It' d be interesting to hear your stories.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


Partner rgold


Apr 3, 2011, 11:07 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:
I've never heard of a situation in which one has to pass a knot in a double rope rappel. I suppose if one tied together 2 ropes one much shorter than the other, but never heard of that happening...

...I've never had to pass a knot in the field. Just out of curiosity has anyone out there been forced to do that? It' d be interesting to hear your stories.


Interestingly enough, the only time I've had to pass a knot "in the field" is when rappelling on two strands. (Not a two-rope rap). Our single rope got a core shot which we "quarantined" with a butterfly knot, which had to be passed on rappel. Unfortunately, I didn't know the munter pop method at the time and had to use the much less pleasant prussik transfer approach.

As for backing up the munter pop method, why not---it can't hurt. But you are rappelling onto a tied-off ATC. If you aren't positive you can tie off an ATC (as for belay escape) then a backup knot is surely essential. On the other hand, if you know how to tie off an ATC, the system is really safe and doesn't have any weak points at which things could head south.


blueeyedclimber


Apr 4, 2011, 5:54 AM
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Alpine07 wrote:
I think I like your method, with a few slight modifications of course. First off, in the essence of saving time, why not just avoid the whole munter part, and just huck off the cliff to get caught where the atc is placed? Should be enough rope out to be a soft landing. All I see is benefit to this method. Tests the anchor for the guy coming next, quick and efficient, no fiddling with gear mid rappel, and fun! Why pass a knot when you can avoid the whole process entirely? I mean, come on guys.

Are you serious? Why on earth would you do that? OR at the least, if you want to do it, fine...but, why would you think it's ok to give that as advice?

Josh


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Apr 4, 2011, 6:33 AM
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Josh, check the date of that "outrageous" post...


blueeyedclimber


Apr 4, 2011, 7:18 AM
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rgold wrote:
Josh, check the date of that "outrageous" post...

Doh!

I've been trolled Frown (edited to add: In my defense, I thought you weren't allowed to troll in this forum).

Btw, I like your solution to pass the knot. Like others, I have never had to in the field and up until now was assuming I'd use prussiks if the situation came up.

Josh


(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Apr 4, 2011, 7:19 AM)


Gmburns2000


Apr 4, 2011, 8:09 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:

I've never had to pass a knot in the field. Just out of curiosity has anyone out there been forced to do that? It' d be interesting to hear your stories.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

While I didn't pass the knot, our team once decided this was the safest way to get down. We were at the top of a tower with night fast approaching. There were three of us, and we knew the anchor between us and the ground was not safe for three people (let alone one or two), and we were also fairly certain that two ropes tied together as one rope would get us to the ground.

We sent Sungam down (biggest dude Laugh) to pass the knot. The first two of us were going to rap down to the ground leaving the third to do two raps, with the last rap off the sketchy anchor in the middle.

It turned out that the knot was just at the ground and we could have all rapped with a two-rope rappel, but this was unclear at best from the top with no place to safely secure mid-way down if we were wrong.


Alpine07


Apr 4, 2011, 11:56 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
rgold wrote:
Josh, check the date of that "outrageous" post...

Doh!

I've been trolled Frown (edited to add: In my defense, I thought you weren't allowed to troll in this forum).

Btw, I like your solution to pass the knot. Like others, I have never had to in the field and up until now was assuming I'd use prussiks if the situation came up.

Josh

Haha, sorry bout that, it was april fools, ya know?! I had thought I'd made it ridiculous enough so no one would think I was serious. Ah well...


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Apr 4, 2011, 12:15 PM
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rgold wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
I've never heard of a situation in which one has to pass a knot in a double rope rappel. I suppose if one tied together 2 ropes one much shorter than the other, but never heard of that happening...

...I've never had to pass a knot in the field. Just out of curiosity has anyone out there been forced to do that? It' d be interesting to hear your stories.


Interestingly enough, the only time I've had to pass a knot "in the field" is when rappelling on two strands. (Not a two-rope rap). Our single rope got a core shot which we "quarantined" with a butterfly knot, which had to be passed on rappel. Unfortunately, I didn't know the munter pop method at the time and had to use the much less pleasant prussik transfer approach.

As for backing up the munter pop method, why not---it can't hurt. But you are rappelling onto a tied-off ATC. If you aren't positive you can tie off an ATC (as for belay escape) then a backup knot is surely essential. On the other hand, if you know how to tie off an ATC, the system is really safe and doesn't have any weak points at which things could head south.

rgold, will you describe the munter pop a bit further? Is it simply a matter of maneuvering the HMS biner so as to remove it from the load line above? If so, any thoughts on whether a keylock biner might work better than a notched biner?


(This post was edited by j_ung on Apr 4, 2011, 12:25 PM)


tomthedancinghobo


Apr 4, 2011, 10:15 PM
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Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but... Why would you rig a Munter at head level? The strands of that hitch (loaded and brake strands) need to be held parallel, so you'd need to hold your brake arm over your head, wouldn't you?

I know the munter has enough friction that you generally don't need to *actually* line the strands up - even a strong grip will often do - but it seems like some serious built-in awkwardness compared to the relatively simple prusik-detach-reattach-unprussik knot-passing.

It seems pretty complicated to me, and possibly harder to control. Then again, I guess we all have our own little idiosyncrasies.


dugl33


Apr 4, 2011, 10:53 PM
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tomthedancinghobo wrote:
Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but... Why would you rig a Munter at head level? The strands of that hitch (loaded and brake strands) need to be held parallel, so you'd need to hold your brake arm over your head, wouldn't you?

I know the munter has enough friction that you generally don't need to *actually* line the strands up - even a strong grip will often do - but it seems like some serious built-in awkwardness compared to the relatively simple prusik-detach-reattach-unprussik knot-passing.

It seems pretty complicated to me, and possibly harder to control. Then again, I guess we all have our own little idiosyncrasies.

Idiosyncratic or 50 some years of experience? No, the strands don't need to be held parallel (i.e. above your head) -- you will still generate enough friction and can hold the ropes as you normally would rappelling with a device.

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