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redraider0102
Apr 2, 2011, 1:59 AM
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I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned.
*side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only.
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jt512
Apr 2, 2011, 2:24 AM
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redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned.
Google "dynamic belay."
In reply to: *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only.
You can soften the catch by "hopping" with any belay device.
Jay
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jt512
Apr 2, 2011, 2:29 AM
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Good introduction here.
Jay
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ceebo
Apr 2, 2011, 1:19 PM
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redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned. *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only.
In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. If room was really an issue you can do it from as little as 6 foot.. but their is not much room for error.
When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good.
The other good thing about this is that when the climber needs allot of slack fast to clip, you just take a step or 2 forward while paying out some slack. Once he has clipped take steps back to your original position feeding the rope out as you go. Really quick and easy doing it with an ATC, i do not use a gri gri so no comment.
As for the hopping before the fall.. i would only do it if i was forced to stay really close to the wall. The way i see it, if both feet are off the floor i have lost control of my own safety. If they take a big enough fall from say the 5th clip, their is not as much rope drag and dynamic stretch that you would find from say the 10th clip, so you will take greater impact. Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. the shock alone may make some people release the brake hand on a ATC to stop themselves.
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johnwesely
Apr 2, 2011, 1:36 PM
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ceebo wrote: redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned. *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only. In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. If room was really an issue you can do it from as little as 6 foot.. but their is not much room for error. When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. The other good thing about this is that when the climber needs allot of slack fast to clip, you just take a step or 2 forward while paying out some slack. Once he has clipped take steps back to your original position feeding the rope out as you go. Really quick and easy doing it with an ATC, i do not use a gri gri so no comment. As for the hopping before the fall.. i would only do it if i was forced to stay really close to the wall. The way i see it, if both feet are off the floor i have lost control of my own safety. If they take a big enough fall from say the 5th clip, their is not as much rope drag and dynamic stretch that you would find from say the 10th clip, so you will take greater impact. Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. the shock alone may make some people release the brake hand on a ATC to stop themselves.
Let me get this straight. You think it is safe to get yanked forward into the wall than up into the air?
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granite_grrl
Apr 2, 2011, 2:06 PM
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redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned. *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only.
One thing to take into consideration is the weight difference between you and your partner. The bigger the difference between climber and belayer the less the belayer needs to hop. The closer the weight, of if the belayer weighs more than the climber the more important hopping is.
I have played crash test dummy falling off to help people see the difference between a soft catch and a hard one. When going through this process I made sure that I was falling off only a gently overhanging route. When my belayer gave me a hard catch it wasn't steep enough to slam me into the wall. Giving a hard catch on something much steeper can result in sprained or broken ankles.
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ceebo
Apr 2, 2011, 3:58 PM
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johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned. *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only. In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. If room was really an issue you can do it from as little as 6 foot.. but their is not much room for error. When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. The other good thing about this is that when the climber needs allot of slack fast to clip, you just take a step or 2 forward while paying out some slack. Once he has clipped take steps back to your original position feeding the rope out as you go. Really quick and easy doing it with an ATC, i do not use a gri gri so no comment. As for the hopping before the fall.. i would only do it if i was forced to stay really close to the wall. The way i see it, if both feet are off the floor i have lost control of my own safety. If they take a big enough fall from say the 5th clip, their is not as much rope drag and dynamic stretch that you would find from say the 10th clip, so you will take greater impact. Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. the shock alone may make some people release the brake hand on a ATC to stop themselves. Let me get this straight. You think it is safe to get yanked forward into the wall than up into the air?
By standing around 10ft back, the angle of the rope to the first quick draw is enough to give allot of redirect.. you do not get dragged into the wall in the vivid nightmare scenario you imply. It is in effect the same principle as hoping but far far more controlled on the belayers part.
Put somebody on a vert wall and have them step 2-3 foot back when belaying.. honestly wtf do you think is going to happen when he hops into significant fall?. God help him if his partner is 20 lb heavier, or more.
What is the other option, stand 2 inches from the wall then hop into it face palming 5 jugs on your way up?.
The only time i would ever use this would be on a steep overhang. Even then, unless my path is restricted.. i would stick to stepping belay.
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redlude97
Apr 2, 2011, 4:20 PM
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ceebo wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned. *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only. In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. If room was really an issue you can do it from as little as 6 foot.. but their is not much room for error. When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. The other good thing about this is that when the climber needs allot of slack fast to clip, you just take a step or 2 forward while paying out some slack. Once he has clipped take steps back to your original position feeding the rope out as you go. Really quick and easy doing it with an ATC, i do not use a gri gri so no comment. As for the hopping before the fall.. i would only do it if i was forced to stay really close to the wall. The way i see it, if both feet are off the floor i have lost control of my own safety. If they take a big enough fall from say the 5th clip, their is not as much rope drag and dynamic stretch that you would find from say the 10th clip, so you will take greater impact. Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. the shock alone may make some people release the brake hand on a ATC to stop themselves. Let me get this straight. You think it is safe to get yanked forward into the wall than up into the air? , the angle of the rope to the first quick draw is enough to give allot of redirect.. you do not get dragged into the wall in the vivid nightmare scenario you imply. It is in effect the same principle as hoping but far far more controlled on the belayers part. Put somebody on a vert wall and have them step 2-3 foot back when belaying.. honestly wtf do you think is going to happen when he hops into significant fall?. God help him if his partner is 20 lb heavier, or more. What is the other option, stand 2 inches from the wall then hop into it face palming 5 jugs on your way up?. The only time i would ever use this would be on a steep overhang. Even then, unless my path is restricted.. i would stick to stepping belay.
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rockforlife
Apr 2, 2011, 4:23 PM
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ceebo wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned. *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only. In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. If room was really an issue you can do it from as little as 6 foot.. but their is not much room for error. When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. The other good thing about this is that when the climber needs allot of slack fast to clip, you just take a step or 2 forward while paying out some slack. Once he has clipped take steps back to your original position feeding the rope out as you go. Really quick and easy doing it with an ATC, i do not use a gri gri so no comment. As for the hopping before the fall.. i would only do it if i was forced to stay really close to the wall. The way i see it, if both feet are off the floor i have lost control of my own safety. If they take a big enough fall from say the 5th clip, their is not as much rope drag and dynamic stretch that you would find from say the 10th clip, so you will take greater impact. Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. the shock alone may make some people release the brake hand on a ATC to stop themselves. Let me get this straight. You think it is safe to get yanked forward into the wall than up into the air? By standing around 10ft back, the angle of the rope to the first quick draw is enough to give allot of redirect.. you do not get dragged into the wall in the vivid nightmare scenario you imply. It is in effect the same principle as hoping but far far more controlled on the belayers part. Put somebody on a vert wall and have them step 2-3 foot back when belaying.. honestly wtf do you think is going to happen when he hops into significant fall?. God help him if his partner is 20 lb heavier, or more. What is the other option, stand 2 inches from the wall then hop into it face palming 5 jugs on your way up?. The only time i would ever use this would be on a steep overhang. Even then, unless my path is restricted.. i would stick to stepping belay.
Do not listen to this man
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johnwesely
Apr 2, 2011, 4:26 PM
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ceebo wrote: By standing around 10ft back, the angle of the rope to the first quick draw is enough to give allot of redirect.. you do not get dragged into the wall in the vivid nightmare scenario you imply. It is in effect the same principle as hoping but far far more controlled on the belayers part.
I bet your climber loves all of that extra rope drag.
In reply to: Put somebody on a vert wall and have them step 2-3 foot back when belaying.. honestly wtf do you think is going to happen when he hops into significant fall?. God help him if his partner is 20 lb heavier, or more.
You will go up a few feet into the air?
In reply to: What is the other option, stand 2 inches from the wall then hop into it face palming 5 jugs on your way up?.
I have never had that come anywhere close to happening.
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USnavy
Apr 2, 2011, 4:44 PM
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ceebo wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned. *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only. In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. If room was really an issue you can do it from as little as 6 foot.. but their is not much room for error. When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. The other good thing about this is that when the climber needs allot of slack fast to clip, you just take a step or 2 forward while paying out some slack. Once he has clipped take steps back to your original position feeding the rope out as you go. Really quick and easy doing it with an ATC, i do not use a gri gri so no comment. As for the hopping before the fall.. i would only do it if i was forced to stay really close to the wall. The way i see it, if both feet are off the floor i have lost control of my own safety. If they take a big enough fall from say the 5th clip, their is not as much rope drag and dynamic stretch that you would find from say the 10th clip, so you will take greater impact. Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. the shock alone may make some people release the brake hand on a ATC to stop themselves. Let me get this straight. You think it is safe to get yanked forward into the wall than up into the air? Put somebody on a vert wall and have them step 2-3 foot back when belaying.. honestly wtf do you think is going to happen when he hops into significant fall?. God help him if his partner is 20 lb heavier, or more.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 2, 2011, 4:45 PM)
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jt512
Apr 2, 2011, 4:52 PM
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johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. . . . When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. As for the hopping before the fall.. [...] If they take a big enough fall . . . Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. Let me get this straight. You think it is safe to get yanked forward into the wall than up into the air?
It's weirder than that. He thinks that he is more likely to get slammed into the wall if he stands close to it and jumps up than if he stands further back and lets himself get pulled into the wall.
Jay
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lena_chita
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Apr 2, 2011, 4:53 PM
Post #13 of 49
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ceebo wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned. *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only. In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. If room was really an issue you can do it from as little as 6 foot.. but their is not much room for error. When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. The other good thing about this is that when the climber needs allot of slack fast to clip, you just take a step or 2 forward while paying out some slack. Once he has clipped take steps back to your original position feeding the rope out as you go. Really quick and easy doing it with an ATC, i do not use a gri gri so no comment. As for the hopping before the fall.. i would only do it if i was forced to stay really close to the wall. The way i see it, if both feet are off the floor i have lost control of my own safety. If they take a big enough fall from say the 5th clip, their is not as much rope drag and dynamic stretch that you would find from say the 10th clip, so you will take greater impact. Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. the shock alone may make some people release the brake hand on a ATC to stop themselves. Let me get this straight. You think it is safe to get yanked forward into the wall than up into the air? By standing around 10ft back, the angle of the rope to the first quick draw is enough to give allot of redirect.. you do not get dragged into the wall in the vivid nightmare scenario you imply. It is in effect the same principle as hoping but far far more controlled on the belayers part..
Your other thread of trusting your belayers now makes PERFECT sense. If this is what your belayers are doing, I would hate to fall, too.
ceebo wrote: Put somebody on a vert wall and have them step 2-3 foot back when belaying.. honestly wtf do you think is going to happen when he hops into significant fall?. God help him if his partner is 20 lb heavier, or more. What is the other option, stand 2 inches from the wall then hop into it face palming 5 jugs on your way up?. The only time i would ever use this would be on a steep overhang. Even then, unless my path is restricted.. i would stick to stepping belay.
Almost all climbers that i belay overweigh me by quite a bit more than 20 pounds. And I have caught my share of falls. Trust me, the WORST thing for me to do would be to stand 10 ft away from the wall when belaying.
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johnwesely
Apr 2, 2011, 4:59 PM
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jt512 wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. . . . When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. As for the hopping before the fall.. [...] If they take a big enough fall . . . Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. Let me get this straight. You think it is safe to get yanked forward into the wall than up into the air? It's weirder than that. He thinks that he is more likely to get slammed into the wall if he stands close to it and jumps up than if he stands further back and lets himself get pulled into the wall. Jay
I think we may need to break out the diagrams.
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lena_chita
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Apr 2, 2011, 5:08 PM
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redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned. *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only.
Some people who started belaying on a toprope first, get into the habbit of sitting down hard when taking, so their climber doesn't fall much. THAT is the worst habbit that needs to be overcome when you start lead belaying. Especially if you are heavier than your climber, and CAN actually sit down and not be pulled up.
If your falls feel soft, then your belayer must be doing things right, perhaps uncosciously. You don't say whether your belayer is lighter than you, but it is easy to "get" the timing of the hop when the climber is heavier. And once you know when that tug is coming, you can be prepared for it and move with it.
The flip side is that if all your partners weigh more than you and you are used to being pulled up and working with that pull, you don't think to hop when the pull isn't there. And the result is OUCH! The worst fall I ever had was caught by a woman who outweighed me by maybe 10-15 pounds. She never needed to hop -- because all her climbers were heavier. So she didn't. I was lucky to walk away with nothing worse than palm-sized bruise on my hip.
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Gmburns2000
Apr 2, 2011, 5:25 PM
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ceebo wrote: redraider0102 wrote: I recently have been practicing lead climbing in the gym with my climbing partner and been getting comfortable with falling as a leader. The falls have been anywhere b/w 8-15ft and have been relatively easy in my opinion; no wip-lash or slamming into the wall(newb to leading). After reading a climbing book today i was curious to find the author was instructing that that as a lead belayer, as the climber falls and you feel the lead rope begin to tighten you should give a small hop (6 inches) in order to make a softer catch and avoid causing a whipper for the climber. I was wanting to get other climbers opinions on this since in the lead class i took at the wall this was never mentioned. *side note: we are belaying on an atc, don't know if this makes any difference as to if the hop applies or to a grigri only. In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. If room was really an issue you can do it from as little as 6 foot.. but their is not much room for error. When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. The other good thing about this is that when the climber needs allot of slack fast to clip, you just take a step or 2 forward while paying out some slack. Once he has clipped take steps back to your original position feeding the rope out as you go. Really quick and easy doing it with an ATC, i do not use a gri gri so no comment. As for the hopping before the fall.. i would only do it if i was forced to stay really close to the wall. The way i see it, if both feet are off the floor i have lost control of my own safety. If they take a big enough fall from say the 5th clip, their is not as much rope drag and dynamic stretch that you would find from say the 10th clip, so you will take greater impact. Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. the shock alone may make some people release the brake hand on a ATC to stop themselves.
Troll.
And a particularly bad one at that, too.
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ceebo
Apr 2, 2011, 8:32 PM
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I have only ever seen people use the step technique. Even instructors who go around different centres to provide the CWA course teach the exact same technique. My climbing partner who also has his SPA was taught the same step belaying as me.
If it was for an outdoor route that was too run out, admittedly i would opt for the hop technique sticking closer to the first bolt.. and only if the route was overhanging. Other than that no, i would not use hop method.
Maybe i am ignorant to other peoples methods?. I would consider using it in every situation than the above.. but every fibre in my body knows are method is safer, gives a softer catch and is far more efficient in paying slack. Perhaps a few of you could try are method first, then have a leg to stand on while making an argument?, i sure don't like talking down to people.
* Where did i put that fire resistant suite
(This post was edited by ceebo on Apr 2, 2011, 8:34 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Apr 2, 2011, 8:50 PM
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ceebo wrote: I have only ever seen people use the step technique. Even instructors who go around different centres to provide the CWA course teach the exact same technique. My climbing partner who also has his SPA was taught the same step belaying as me. If it was for an outdoor route that was too run out, admittedly i would opt for the hop technique sticking closer to the first bolt.. and only if the route was overhanging. Other than that no, i would not use hop method. Maybe i am ignorant to other peoples methods?. I would consider using it in every situation than the above.. but every fibre in my body knows are method is safer, gives a softer catch and is far more efficient in paying slack. Perhaps a few of you could try are method first, then have a leg to stand on while making an argument?, i sure don't like talking down to people. * Where did i put that fire resistant suite
well, I learned to climb in the UK and have climbed with many British climbers over the years. None of have stood ten feet away from the cliff while belaying (or the wall in the gym for that matter, either). All of them used relatively the same techniques that I have also seen in the US, and Chile, and Switzerland, and Argentina, and Canada.
*Shrugs* but hey, I'm the resident gumby around here, so what the fuck do I know?
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gosharks
Apr 2, 2011, 10:56 PM
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ceebo wrote: but every fibre in my body knows are method is safer, gives a softer catch and is far more efficient in paying slack. Perhaps a few of you could try are method first, then have a leg to stand on while making an argument?, i sure don't like talking down to people.
I take it that you have never tried this technique outside while standing on an unstable or loose surface?
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ceebo
Apr 3, 2011, 12:07 AM
Post #20 of 49
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Gmburns2000 wrote: ceebo wrote: I have only ever seen people use the step technique. Even instructors who go around different centres to provide the CWA course teach the exact same technique. My climbing partner who also has his SPA was taught the same step belaying as me. If it was for an outdoor route that was too run out, admittedly i would opt for the hop technique sticking closer to the first bolt.. and only if the route was overhanging. Other than that no, i would not use hop method. Maybe i am ignorant to other peoples methods?. I would consider using it in every situation than the above.. but every fibre in my body knows are method is safer, gives a softer catch and is far more efficient in paying slack. Perhaps a few of you could try are method first, then have a leg to stand on while making an argument?, i sure don't like talking down to people. * Where did i put that fire resistant suite well, I learned to climb in the UK and have climbed with many British climbers over the years. None of have stood ten feet away from the cliff while belaying (or the wall in the gym for that matter, either). All of them used relatively the same techniques that I have also seen in the US, and Chile, and Switzerland, and Argentina, and Canada. *Shrugs* but hey, I'm the resident gumby around here, so what the fuck do I know?
Then i must be making it up.
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altelis
Apr 3, 2011, 1:25 AM
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johnwesely wrote: jt512 wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. . . . When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. As for the hopping before the fall.. [...] If they take a big enough fall . . . Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. Let me get this straight. You think it is safe to get yanked forward into the wall than up into the air? It's weirder than that. He thinks that he is more likely to get slammed into the wall if he stands close to it and jumps up than if he stands further back and lets himself get pulled into the wall. Jay I think we may need to break out the diagrams.
Not sure that would help....basic vectors are clearly beyond him...
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johnwesely
Apr 3, 2011, 5:27 AM
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altelis wrote: johnwesely wrote: jt512 wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: In the gym, once the climber is at a safe enough height where a fall wont land him on the belay side of the rope running to first clip we start stepping back from the wall ( i do not know if your area does this also?). For me personally about 10-12 foot back, some go less, some more. . . . When catching a fall we just get the timing right and take a step forward as the climber lands on the rope. That gets you out of your impact position and allows his weight to take you forward a few steps before stopping the fall. If you try to resist to much being pulled forward in the first few steps you will swing him into the wall, but if you allow him to take you in a few step before ramping up opposing force its good. As for the hopping before the fall.. [...] If they take a big enough fall . . . Chances are your going to get lifted off your feet at least 2-3 foot. May not sound much but it is enough to slam you into a vert wall if your position to the wall was wrong.. Let me get this straight. You think it is safe to get yanked forward into the wall than up into the air? It's weirder than that. He thinks that he is more likely to get slammed into the wall if he stands close to it and jumps up than if he stands further back and lets himself get pulled into the wall. Jay I think we may need to break out the diagrams. Not sure that would help....basic vectors are clearly beyond him...
Expert level trolling, however, is not.
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jt512
Apr 3, 2011, 5:35 AM
Post #23 of 49
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ceebo wrote: I have only ever seen people use the step technique.
Google "argument from ignorance."
Jay
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patto
Apr 3, 2011, 9:54 AM
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Dynamic belays are an obsession that is largely not necessary. Use a stretchier rope rather if you want a softer catch.
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USnavy
Apr 3, 2011, 10:20 AM
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patto wrote: Dynamic belays are an obsession that is largely not necessary. Use a stretchier rope rather if you want a softer catch.
The concept of a dynamic belay does not just involve limiting the force on the top piece and on the belayer. When you take a lead fall you almost always naturally fall backwards away from the rock to some degree. When the rope comes tight you will swing, or "pendulum", back into the rock. Providing a dynamic belay will help limit the effects of a pendulum swing back into the rock which can save you a trip to the ER for a compound fracture. Go take some whips on some overhanging sport routes and you will quickly understand what I am talking about.
In trad climbing dynamic belays are also important as they limit the force on the top piece. High elongation ropes further limit the impact force on the top piece, but dynamic belays are key in this as well, especially if the fall happens close to the ground. The difference between a very hard catch and a perfectly executed soft catch could mean the difference between the top piece ripping and it holding.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 3, 2011, 11:42 AM)
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