(please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying)

(please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying)

So, do you think that with a definition of Go/no go decision, we can have a clear definition between sport and trade?

No, that won't be necessary. You're not Derrida.

(please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying)

Maybe about the gear placement stuff, but all of the stuff about movement, sequences, holds, all are true for sport as well.[..] I don't think the distinction between trad and sport is so simple that you can state "In trad, climbers make decisions. In sport, climbers make no decisions".[..] Yes, there do tend to be, in my mind, more decisions and calculations that you must make for trad than for sport, however.

HA!

(please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying)
I heard about "go/no go decision" in a TV program on the Apollo mission. The NASA made a go/no go check up for each parts of the trip to the moon. What is a go/no go decision? It is a question you ask to yourself before you make an action. When the answer is positive, you go for it. It is a decision to continue the mission or to come back. What can be a go/no go decision in climbing?

In sport, the climber looks for a bolt and clips it. They never, and cannot, test the bolt. The climber does not take a decision. They go/go to be at the top of the route

In trad, the climber has to decide many thinks. For example, the climber put is first piece of pro after the belay and are in a rest place. He has to take some of these decisions:

1- Do I see where I can place the next pro? Go/no go...if I cannot see it:

1a-where is the highest point I can climb before bailing?
1b- my pro is it in the good position for a fall in that direction
1c Can I go looks Go/no go

2- Can I see the sequence of movement to the next pro? Go/no go...If I cannot see it:

2a- Do I see the holes? If not can, I look and come back to my stance?
2b- Can I divide the sequence in two or three sequences with a rest for each?
2c- Will I be injuring if I fall?
2d- Can I go take a look?

3- Do I know all the movement of the sequence? go/no go....

a- If I have more than one technique possible

3a- Will I be injure with the first technique
3b- Will I be injure with the other technique
3c- Which technique is safer go/no go

b- If I can not see the technique

3a- Can I go looks and come back?
3b- Can I fall safely?
3c- Do I want to try? go/no go

With that definition, the difference between trad and sport is not just using pro, but also a game where you have to take decision and gain confidence on yourself. Nobody can tell you if you are right or wrong, it is pure fun. The goal is not to reach the top of an hard climb, but to place good pro and safe move without previous knowledge.

What about sport climber who climb the route by the top, decide of the sequences and clean the place where they want to place a pro. Did they have to take decision? In my opinion, they do not. They have to remember what they have done the day before. Placing pro whatever it is possible is not taking decision too.

So, do you think that with a definition of Go/no go decision, we can have a clear definition between sport and trade?

Whether you clip the next bolt or place another piece is up to you most of the time.

Gee that's good to know. The next time I am way run out on some featureless face I'll just choose "place".

The only things to consider are:
Will the gear below be keep me out of danger?
Is the gear below me good?
[...}
Whether you clip the next bolt or place another piece is up to you most of the time.

old eric: place instead of take... that's a good one.

corrupt, do I understand that you said that you climb and when you are in danger of a fall, you look below you and if the guy which place the bolt did a bad job, you are going to die if you fall. If not, what can you do for it when you are above the bolt?

I use the fall factor to evaluate the maximum distance of the other pro high above me. I use a fall factor of 0.5 and place to pro in a row if I decide to run it out. I scan all possibility, even the one when there is no place for a gear. At that moment, I already guested the forces my last pro can hold before poping out. I already decide where I am going to fall and I never look below me after (I'm to scary), except if my partner warn me of a zipper effect. as Olderic said, now it is emotional.

Do I understand that at the bolt, you look the next one and go to it. In your way, up, you look donw for a safe fall without previous thinking? Is it happen to someone who go for it and didn't find any good pro and cannot bail? What is your opinion.

Look, the distinction of a "trad climber", so to speak, is the ability to walk up to some piece of rock that he knows nothing about...

All of this obsessing over falling, estimating safe fall zones and distances, pretending that you know what your fall factor is and how much each placement can hold at any point on a climb, and generally overthinking the shit out of everything has absolutely nothing to do with traditional climbing.

I am confuse.I didn't know that the first five edition of mountaineering freedom of the hill was wrong. In the fifth edition, they have a graph where we have the relation between the fall factor and the force on the pro. But, you right, they are all wrong. Fifty years of climber, five generation do all wrong.

I agree that in the last three edition, 6 to 8, the mentality change. They explain a procedure: you clip and go.

I am of the old generation. why is it so bad to have a definition of trad climbing that we can be proud of it? if I swing in a lake an get out of the water on a rock: I am trad climbing with your definition

Trad=Moveable protection
Sport=Fixed Protection

Seems enough for most of us.

Jim