I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works.

for a complete summary of all the best answers to the OP's question, see below.

I agree

Hint: Read Tony Robbins, do you know what a subliminal message is?
How does that work in relationship to the truth about leading for Men and Women?
Strengths and Weakness ?

Seeing as it only counts as a legit send if you lead it, I obviously prefer to lead. Its pretty obvious...

Nothing really to do with ego, unless you are telling me that because I prefer to climb a route in proper style (on lead no falls all gear placed on lead and so on) that I am feeding my ego....

Yeah, there are times where on some hard multipitch free climb there is a pitch more suited to my partners strenghts and he will lead it ..

and another pitch might be my style so I lead it, its called strategy in order to get a proper all free ascent.

Hoever I think if someone ropeguns you up a free climb beyond your lead abilities but you follow clean, thats not a very good free ascent... there has to be relatively equal lead efforts from both parties... but now I am just rambling..

I really just think it was sort of a ridiculous question in the first place... why lead? Because that is how climbing works.

Have any more bullshit to spread? It's how it works for you, don't impose your ethics on what is and what's not climbing on others. Especially if you think gear needs to be placed on lead.

I agree

That's what is ridiculous about the question to begin with. So what is the truth? What do you think the truth is? What sort of sub-conscious messages are men and women saying to each other about leading, and does it matter?

Personally, for me, if someone wants to lead then that person should speak up and lead. If that person doesn't speak up and wants to lead then it's that person's fault for not speaking up. There is nothing subliminal about it. I prefer to chose partners who I can swap leads with. I love leading, but I need a rest at some point in the day and I look for people who can share the workload, male or female. So for me, again, there is nothing subliminal about it.

I think if you're worrying about subliminal messages then you're choosing the wrong partners or you don't know how to communicate...oh, wait.

I haven't read Tony Robbins, but I know what a subliminal message is....

If someone is trying to post subliminal messages to their climbing partner via their leading...well, that's screwed up!

But personal issues do arise in climbing, of course. It is a microcosm for life, in some respects.

I have led all day, with a follower. I'm not THAT confident that I find the days as my best ones out there.
- The awareness that, if something goes wrong, it is on me to get us out is stressful,m and I need to choose routes carefully that I KNOW I can deal with any issues.
- I also don't enjoy the pressure of feeling I am not giving a "hard day's climbing" for my partner(if that seems the case - sometimes it can be, others not). I'm not a "ticking time bomb" sort of climber anyway. I DO like efficiency while on the climb; just not the running to tick the next, the next, the next.


Depending on who I am climbing with, I enjoy my share of leading. If they are a solid leader at a harder grade, and just trying to "give me a pitch or two" - frankly, I'd rather just follow them all day.
- I LIKE being a good partner. I have had many people tell me that they couldn't/wouldn't do some of the climbs they had done, with some other people they know. But they feel good with me on the other end.
- I am climbing with a partner now, on road trip(though the van is broken down in Tucson, AZ right now....what will the future bring?). He leads several grades harder, but he is the most patient while I get pitches in, and sees it as a way for me to improve and be competent AT the higher grades. I enjoy my leads with him, even the ones I am swearing and whimpering on(not so sure he enjoys them though...).

I think my best days climbing, as a leader, are when I am swinging leads with a person.


But I don't think it is as simple as "men's lead head" and "women's lead head." I've seen very strong, very weak, and everything in between in both sexes.

Since you haven't read Tony Robbins , its impossible to explain to you all that he has written. Its not just subliminal messages, it is much more complicated way of thinking.
Get a book or his tapes, maybe then you will understand about strengths and weakness, and what I am speaking about. He also has conferences and many famous top athletes are on the same page.
Its impossible to discuss Tony Robbins with you if aren't familiar with his work.
If you want to lead go right ahead, if I want to second on a harder climb , I can do that as well.
If you want to swap leads, and you are happy that is good too.
If someone wants to lead easy climbs and their partner is into that as well, that is their choice.
Whether its a man or woman.
You see I'm not arguing with you at all. Be happy and climb. Let others do the same.

Not all climbers care about 'sending' or climbing in 'good style', a lot of climbers, especially in my specific area are out there just to chill, top rope and have a lot of fun! I LOVE doing this too, if a rope is up on a climb my friend just led I will sometimes huck a TR lap on it...

BUT, I don't then go around talking about how I onsighted or sent the route, and if I actually want to onsight, or send it proper, I pull the rope and lead it, placing all the gear on lead.

I am not saying every HAS to lead to be a rock climber, I am saying that if the person gets to the point where they want to challenge themselves and try to actually 'send' climbs that they have start leading.

At some point climbers start to get some sort of ambition, and as soon as they want to reach personal goals in climbing, they are probably going to have to start leading. I don't know any climbers with a ton of ambition that do not lead, or are not in the process of learning to lead, or at least setting goals about when they can start learning about lead climbing.

If you do a climb you should be totally honest about how you did it.... 'yeah, I sent that but I TR'd it first I had to headpoint it' or, 'Yeah, I did lead it but I got my friend to pre-place all the gear for me'.

I don't think top-roping, headpointing, or pink-pointing is 'bad' or 'not real climbing'... I do all of them myself and have plenty of fun. But when it comes down to it leading, ground up, plaing gear is unarguably the best style short of onsight soloing (which is extremely dangerous and highly NOT reccomended) and climbing in the best style you can is awesome!

Whatever you do , if it makes you happy that is what is important. Swaping leads or whatever.

It has nothing to do with the man or woman sex distinction either.

I know it was a shot in the dark.

However, I had hoped someone on rockclimbing.com was familiar with Tony Robbins.

Even if you can't read, he has tapes, great information , there is relevance .

I would never say I led a route if I was clipping someone else's pre-placed gear. Part of leading on gear is the consideration of gear and how it builds the system.

But I also don't really agree with calling the work of a Second Top-roping. Climb at the Gunks with some of our airy, thinly protected traverses!(Or climb with a leader who either thinks you can handle the risk if less pro on a traverse, or doesn't think to protect their poor, less string a climber, second.

Top roping doesn't involve cleaning and racking gear, other than the occassional directional, either. The belayer on top-rope also doesn't often have the duties of the second as belayer either. I have had a lot of leaders tell me they took on a route with me as second, which they wouldn't have with some other partners(and I know others who have the same experinece). Can't say so much for the TR...

I have noticed a trend it seems like the leaders who lead easier leads want to share leading . While the guys who climb harder seem okay with whatever!

So I still have trouble understanding why I can't enjoy being a second on a 5.10 if my partner and leader is happy and stoked.
Even on my longest climb 21 pitches where I was a second.

I have my nut tool, get out the cams. 2nd.
belay well.
Why can't we all just be friends, and happy climbers??? Hmmn.
If I want to lead, something easy, I will.

If a guy wants to follow some 5.10 he can't lead , there's nothing wrong with that either.

If a women leads 5.11's and her partner follows and is a guy who can't lead that hard, That's great too.

If you and your partner want to swap leads , go right ahead.

I can't believe there is no-one here that knows Tony Robbins tapes or books. Its so relevant to this discussion.