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currupt4130
Jan 31, 2011, 4:03 AM
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And in an attempt to keep on topic, I don't mind the link cams but I don't like one size fits all solutions.
Think about universal wrenches, adjustable wrenches, glue that sticks everything together (gorilla glue, super glue, etc), universal fit car parts, etc.
Specialty tools are the tools that get the job done correctly. If you could take and optimize a cam, it would be to optimize it solely for one type of placement and size. By increasing the range and placement options of gear you open up more options but inevitably decrease the actual usefulness of the gear.
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guangzhou
Jan 31, 2011, 4:04 AM
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theapollo wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: theapollo wrote: I climb with one guy if i climb trad (multipitch routes anyway, single pitch trad you only have to trust the belay of your partner. If i do multipitch I have a hard time trusting placements of people I barely know, so i just don't do it.) He has never placed a link cam before. I do get his advice about lots of climbing aspects though I think the point that amyas was trying to make is that you have been climbing longer and climb much harder than most of the people on this site. So why are you asking this question here? MY POINT would have been more like this: Why does it matter what grade the climb was? How come every time you post up on this site you somehow sneak 5.13 in there? I've read a few of your posts that have made me think I'd like to climb with you and a few others that have made me want to puke. Just a piece of advice... don't mention the grade you climb unless asked. You'll never look bad if you take that advice and you'll rarely look good if you don't. Most of the time I've come off as an asshole (on this site and it real life) I mentioned the grade that I climb or the grade that someone else didn't climb. When I go back and read those posts or remember those arguments it makes me sick. So take it from me now...for your own sake. Get over the 5.13 thing. This is actually the second time I've mentioned it, first time it was because my question couldn't really be answered without that info. So really it's been one time that I didn't have to say it, although I didn't really think I was trying to belittle anybody in my post. I mean I figure I've posted enough so far on this site for people to know I'm neither an asshole nor confrontational.
How does the grade help in answering this question exactly?
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theapollo
Jan 31, 2011, 4:39 AM
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It doesn't. It was just to give an example, you all are right I could have done without the grade addition.
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FullertonImages
Apr 21, 2011, 7:28 PM
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I have a red Link cam and I like it as a supplement to my usual rack of C4's, C3's and Mastercams. I would even like to pick up another one or two at some point. They are real great as back up piece or as a crossover double piece. It's nice to just climb with a single rack of cams and know that you can double up on purple through red C4's, obviously only one of them. What i really like it for is to use in the anchor, and that's definitely where it see the most use. That way if there is a green camalot placement for the anchor, I'll plug the Link cam and save my camalot for the next pitch. Also is nice for when you need a small rack for just a few placements, but you don't know which ones. Oe or two of these can cover a big range. I like to add them to my rack for mixed alpine routes, with a handful of screws and a nuts and pins. I also use it for when I'm shooting climbing, when I drop in on a route and might need to place a directional, it's nice just to have that and a yellow Mastercams , instead of four cams.
What I don't like is the rotational breaking problem as has been mentioned, and also tihe head width is pretty considerable. Compared to a master cam, they are monstrous.
Cheers,
Ben
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 21, 2011, 10:13 PM
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Take a real fall on one of those things and for some reason it does not load perfecty it Will blow apart and you will die. Stuff happens, Sometimes your foot catches the runner and rotates the cam on your way by, sometimes direction of loading is not exactly what you thought it would be in a real fall. With a C4 if the placement is not perfect chances are pretty darn good that the unit will still hold. With a link cam if the placement is not perfect chances are pretty darn good that the cam will blow apart.
Way too many small delicate working parts for a piece of life support equiptment. Why even bother useing 23kn locking biners on your rep/belay device, backing up rappels and belay anncors etc if you then trust your life to a piece that will fail underr body weight if not loaded just right. makes no sense to me other than being lazy and trying to carry less stuff at the expense of basic safty.
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redlude97
Apr 21, 2011, 10:28 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Take a real fall on one of those things and for some reason it does not load perfecty it Will blow apart and you will die. Stuff happens, Sometimes your foot catches the runner and rotates the cam on your way by, sometimes direction of loading is not exactly what you thought it would be in a real fall. With a C4 if the placement is not perfect chances are pretty darn good that the unit will still hold. With a link cam if the placement is not perfect chances are pretty darn good that the cam will blow apart. Way too many small delicate working parts for a piece of life support equiptment. Why even bother useing 23kn locking biners on your rep/belay device, backing up rappels and belay anncors etc if you then trust your life to a piece that will fail underr body weight if not loaded just right. makes no sense to me other than being lazy and trying to carry less stuff at the expense of basic safty.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 21, 2011, 11:45 PM
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I have seen at least half a dozen photos of those things in pieces. when they get cranked sideways they break, when the little pins and hinges break the cam basicly seems to fall apart. When a C4 gets loaded sideways it simply rotates to the direction of pull. The only time we have seen a broken C4 on one of these link cam threads was one time somone posted a completly thrashed booty gold #2 cam that had been hacksawed out of the rock. I don't know if there have been injurys or fatalitys. Not my department to count that stuff. i do know that i have seem multiple photos of of busted cams and the failure mode is similer in most of the photos. Broken tiny little hinges. My thought is that folks are not whipping on these things all that much or we would see more faliures.
You would have to be nuts to trust your life to something that delicate when the option of complete bombproof is there for you. Rps and micro cams are delicate as well but you have no choice when the crack gets that small. With a large crack you want something bombproof. No way would i ever be able to consider the link cam Bombproof.
Scenario. i just led a thing flaring crack at my limit, i stuffed as many tiny cams and micro wires into the thing as i could but the pump as well as the flares tricky nature of the crack limited my options. Suddenly the crack goes to hands. I know that none of that micro crap is worth the time it took to place and I want something bomber Now.. I reach for my trusty gold camalot that I KNOW will hold a keg of beer but it's not there because i am useing my partners Fluffy rack with the shiny new gagets on it. I plug in a link can and proceed to jam past the cam, with both feet in the short jamcrack, as i pass the link cam it gets kicked and rotates. the crack goes to extra wide flare. I got nothing that will fit but i have put all my beans in the Link cam basket. I Run out of gas and grease out. the link cam is loaded sideways and blows apart,the micro crap in the sandy flare rips and I die in a situation where a #2 C4 side loaded would still have been bomber. OOps....
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 22, 2011, 12:16 AM
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Think of it this way. Would you trust a biner on your rack with a minor axis strength of only 2kn? the norm is an average of about 8kn.
I know that you are not supposed to load biners on the ninor acces but it can happen therfore i want the reasurance that if it does happen that I will most likly be ok
Anyone want to veture a guess as to how much force it takes to break that little hinge on a link cam if you tourqe it the wrong way? Do you feel comfortable looking at that tiny little bit of soft alloy aluminum and thinking about what if it loads sidways in a critical situation?
The link cam is not a critical piece of gear. there are much stronger pieces of gear that will fit in those size cracks. I will not take the chance of my life depending on a few mm of aluminum that has been shown to break when not loaded properly.
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dr_feelgood
Apr 22, 2011, 12:40 AM
Post #34 of 51
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tradmanclimbs wrote: I have seen at least half a dozen photos of those things in pieces. when they get cranked sideways they break, when the little pins and hinges break the cam basicly seems to fall apart. When a C4 gets loaded sideways it simply rotates to the direction of pull. The only time we have seen a broken C4 on one of these link cam threads was one time somone posted a completly thrashed booty gold #2 cam that had been hacksawed out of the rock. I don't know if there have been injurys or fatalitys. Not my department to count that stuff. i do know that i have seem multiple photos of of busted cams and the failure mode is similer in most of the photos. Broken tiny little hinges. My thought is that folks are not whipping on these things all that much or we would see more faliures. You would have to be nuts to trust your life to something that delicate when the option of complete bombproof is there for you. Rps and micro cams are delicate as well but you have no choice when the crack gets that small. With a large crack you want something bombproof. No way would i ever be able to consider the link cam Bombproof.
So you are basically talking out of your ass.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 22, 2011, 3:18 AM
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Actually No. It is a well documented fact that link cams fail when loaded improperly. Most of us have seen the photos and read the threads. It is also a fact that link cams have the most delicate and most moveing parts of all the mid size cams. they are fragaile beasts. If used correctly they will work. the problem is that there is not as much room for error as there is with a more robust unit. As much as folks like to talk out their ass and claim that they never make errors, errors do in fact happen. that is why most of the time we practice redundancy. I have seen threads where folks claimed very short falls and posted a photo of a broken link cam. Never seen that with a C4. Gungzaou says that he has broken a camalot. i would be interested to know if the cam experienced total failuer. Most of the broken Link cams that i have seen pretty much fell apart when the hing broke.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 22, 2011, 3:25 AM
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ttp://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1733591;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Apr 22, 2011, 3:44 AM)
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 22, 2011, 3:36 AM
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http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/897559/Re_OP_Link_cam_failure_purple_
annother one
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 22, 2011, 3:42 AM
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ttp://crabdev.blogspot.com/
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airscape
May 5, 2011, 10:23 AM
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suprasoup wrote: MS1 wrote: theapollo wrote: Has anyone tried using a full rack of these for short climbs? Like a 6-7 cam rack for 80 ft climbs or below At least one person on this site (suprasoup) seems to rack up that way, but most people avoid it. Such a rack would be heavy, expensive, and occasionally unsafe (depending on the nature of the placements available). Don't get me wrong, I love having a link on my rack as a backup piece, but I wouldn't want to rely on them exclusively. For the type of climbing that I do, rope solo multi pitch in an alpine setting, they work well. It's a rare day that I'll climb single pitch routes on gear. To the OP. Every cam has it's particular strengths and weaknesses. It's up to you to decide whether the link cams strengths outweigh their weaknesses for the style of your climbing. Supra
Hey supra
Don't you have like 100 of these things? I seem to remember that you posted a photo once where you had 10 of each or something.
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suprasoup
May 5, 2011, 7:56 PM
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airscape wrote: suprasoup wrote: MS1 wrote: theapollo wrote: Has anyone tried using a full rack of these for short climbs? Like a 6-7 cam rack for 80 ft climbs or below At least one person on this site (suprasoup) seems to rack up that way, but most people avoid it. Such a rack would be heavy, expensive, and occasionally unsafe (depending on the nature of the placements available). Don't get me wrong, I love having a link on my rack as a backup piece, but I wouldn't want to rely on them exclusively. For the type of climbing that I do, rope solo multi pitch in an alpine setting, they work well. It's a rare day that I'll climb single pitch routes on gear. To the OP. Every cam has it's particular strengths and weaknesses. It's up to you to decide whether the link cams strengths outweigh their weaknesses for the style of your climbing. Supra Hey supra Don't you have like 100 of these things? I seem to remember that you posted a photo once where you had 10 of each or something.
Most I've ever had was 3 sets. I'm currently down to 2 sets because someone stole a set Maybe it was the Trango max cams you're thinking of. I've got like 6-7 sets of those.
Supra
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rocknice2
May 6, 2011, 1:02 AM
Post #41 of 51
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Scenario. i just led a thing flaring crack at my limit, i stuffed as many tiny cams and micro wires into the thing as i could but the pump as well as the flares tricky nature of the crack limited my options. Suddenly the crack goes to hands. I know that none of that micro crap is worth the time it took to place and I want something bomber Now.. I reach for my trusty gold camalot that I KNOW will hold a keg of beer but it's not there because i am useing my partners Fluffy rack with the shiny new gagets on it. I plug in a link can and proceed to jam past the cam, with both feet in the short jamcrack, as i pass the link cam it gets kicked and rotates. the crack goes to extra wide flare. I got nothing that will fit but i have put all my beans in the Link cam basket. I Run out of gas and grease out. the link cam is loaded sideways and blows apart,the micro crap in the sandy flare rips and I die in a situation where a #2 C4 side loaded would still have been bomber. OOps....
Well that would not be the best place to use a Link cam. How about:
There is a climb at you limit with a bolt protected face and a crack high up. Your not sure of the size.
I don't think a rack of Links is a good idea but they are a good supplement.
I someone is the type of climber that spaces their pro so evry piece is ground fall citical then you have enough pro in a single rack to cover any pitch outside of Indian Creek.
If they plug pro every 6-10ft then links can be good.
Just need to be smart when to use them. Can accident happen? Yes.
They are about the only thing that work in cracks that flare in.
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mikeo
May 13, 2011, 3:41 AM
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I have a set and a half that I used all last week on classics at red rocks, the two green link cams and yellow link cams I have were the most used pieces during the climb and at anchors. If you extend the sling and place them properly (stems pointing down, not out) they are awesome. With that being said occasionally you'll come across a placement that is just better suited for a C4. I have fallen on the yellow one in the past and it held fine. C4's weigh less though so I see these as more of a piece when you need to get something in quick, or as a safety net when you don't know the exact size you'll need higher up. If you do a lot of mixed routes, these with a set of tricams mixed in with a few stoppers are a good combo.
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bearbreeder
May 13, 2011, 3:56 AM
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mikeo wrote: I have a set and a half that I used all last week on classics at red rock If you do a lot of mixed routes, these with a set of tricams mixed in with a few stoppers are a good combo.
this is exactly what i bring for a "light mixed" rack ...
the tricams will fit in the funky placements you wouldnt want a link cam in ...
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billcoe_
May 19, 2011, 7:37 PM
Post #44 of 51
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healyje wrote: Don't take away the wrong message! Link Cams give very high quality placements when used appropriately. That's the key, use them appropriate to their advantages and avoid placements which expose their weakness.
Crack jugging aid in Yosemite is something that the Links do better than anything. In tradmanclimbs version, whomever rated that post 1 star should re-read it. As Healyje says concerning lateral loading and breaking of Link Cams at low strength levels: you wouldn't want a Link Cam within 100 yards of that critical placement Tradman describes, stick a Metolius cam in it if you need bomber.
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Roo1986
Sep 15, 2011, 9:00 PM
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I have not but only because Link Cams are more expensive. I really like using Link Cams, however I do have 1 issue with the design. The circular piece on the stem that is used to keep the cam from "over camming" while at rest is made of plastic. I personally destroyed a #2 link cam during a fall that resulted in staples and stitches on my head (not wearing a helmet). When I looked at the #2 that I ripped out of the wall, it looked like a tulip.
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bandycoot
Sep 15, 2011, 9:51 PM
Post #46 of 51
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tradmanclimbs wrote: I have seen at least half a dozen photos of those things in pieces. when they get cranked sideways they break, when the little pins and hinges break the cam basicly seems to fall apart. When a C4 gets loaded sideways it simply rotates to the direction of pull. The only time we have seen a broken C4 on one of these link cam threads was one time somone posted a completly thrashed booty gold #2 cam that had been hacksawed out of the rock. I don't know if there have been injurys or fatalitys. Not my department to count that stuff. i do know that i have seem multiple photos of of busted cams and the failure mode is similer in most of the photos. Broken tiny little hinges. My thought is that folks are not whipping on these things all that much or we would see more faliures. You would have to be nuts to trust your life to something that delicate when the option of complete bombproof is there for you. Rps and micro cams are delicate as well but you have no choice when the crack gets that small. With a large crack you want something bombproof. No way would i ever be able to consider the link cam Bombproof. Scenario. i just led a thing flaring crack at my limit, i stuffed as many tiny cams and micro wires into the thing as i could but the pump as well as the flares tricky nature of the crack limited my options. Suddenly the crack goes to hands. I know that none of that micro crap is worth the time it took to place and I want something bomber Now.. I reach for my trusty gold camalot that I KNOW will hold a keg of beer but it's not there because i am useing my partners Fluffy rack with the shiny new gagets on it. I plug in a link can and proceed to jam past the cam, with both feet in the short jamcrack, as i pass the link cam it gets kicked and rotates. the crack goes to extra wide flare. I got nothing that will fit but i have put all my beans in the Link cam basket. I Run out of gas and grease out. the link cam is loaded sideways and blows apart,the micro crap in the sandy flare rips and I die in a situation where a #2 C4 side loaded would still have been bomber. OOps....
A few points:
Tens of thousands of Link Cams have been sold, and you're overexaggerating the rate of their failure, to say the least.
I'll bet it would be interesting to compare a % of Link Cams that have broken in falls vs % of all cam placements that have broken/failed/pulled/etc in falls. I know it's impossible to gather that data, but I've had textbook placements pull, and when I set Link Cams with the express purpose of causing one to fail I couldn't damage it in the least when I jumped off.
I broke a C4 my first time falling on one (axle bent and the lobes were locked in the closed position), but I'm logical enough to know that was a freak accident and climb on them confidently.
It seems off that you defend yourself saying that "It's not my department to count that stuff" with regards to failures, but you'll make outlandish claims like "Take a real fall on one of those things and for some reason it does not load perfectly it Will blow apart and you will die."
It's not wise to trust your life to a single piece, period, which is what you seem to be promoting with your rant about the gold camalot.
Just curious, but have you ever fallen on a Link Cam?
I'm not saying trust them outright, but after using them, falling on them, learning about how many are on the market vs # of reported failures, and personal experience, I revised my opinion from a similar gut distrust to having more respect for them.
I'm amused that this is on the front page because I just wrote a review up on Link Cams and posted it last weekend if anyone is curious:
http://pullharder.org/.../11/link-cam-review/
Josh
(This post was edited by bandycoot on Sep 16, 2011, 1:47 AM)
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bearbreeder
Sep 15, 2011, 10:10 PM
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ive fallen on every one of my link cams ... and im still alive
place em properly ...
theres been a few oh shiet moments when pumping a link cam in has saved my sorry azz
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Roo1986
Sep 20, 2011, 4:43 PM
Post #48 of 51
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Completely agree. Nothing better than a link cam after you have tried to wiggle in 2 pieces that wouldn't fit and your starting to get pumped.
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anarkhos
Feb 19, 2012, 5:04 AM
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I bought a set and I kinda regret it.
At first it seemed a good idea—one set of camalots and one set of link cams for on-sighting.
But they're heavy, and you can only place them in vertical splitters, and they WALK!
You won't like placing them in the 'aluminum' range, either. The spring isn't that strong in that range.
For those of us who know how to ring-lock, the only useful size ends up being the green (for off-finger unjammables). I've placed the purple, but how strong is it really? As for blind placements, I put in a link cam while pumped, and it zippered out when I fell because, well, it was a blind placement 
My advice: learn how to place gear based on feel. I know by touching the rock what cam fits around 90% of the time. If you want link cams I suggest getting one green one. The other sizes you should be able to jam, and if you can't, well, practice more.
Anyone want a set of link cams? I'll keep the one I fell on (but didn't hold)
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Ned_Ludd
Jul 30, 2012, 9:26 AM
Post #50 of 51
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I know this is a few months old, If your still trying to get rid of your link cams I will take them.
When placed properly I have just as much confidence in the link cam as I do with my c4's.
However I heard there was an accident in Skaha this spring where I guy decked when his link cam pulled. Anyone have any info on that? Did the cam break or pull out?
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