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Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 23, 2011, 1:18 PM
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Txting savs literacy
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if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.


petsfed


Apr 23, 2011, 3:18 PM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

Not sure I follow you here. Which junk is being stripped away?


Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 23, 2011, 4:47 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

Not sure I follow you here. Which junk is being stripped away?

Complex and unneeded spelling rules. But didn't we dance this tango before?
http://multiliteracies.ning.com/...ext-messaging-in-the


veganclimber


Apr 23, 2011, 5:07 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

Not sure I follow you here. Which junk is being stripped away?

Speling and gramer.


blondgecko
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Apr 23, 2011, 5:29 PM
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Re: [veganclimber] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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veganclimber wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

Not sure I follow you here. Which junk is being stripped away?

Speling and gramer.

You want to strip Gramer? You sick bastard.


petsfed


Apr 24, 2011, 11:34 AM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

Not sure I follow you here. Which junk is being stripped away?

Complex and unneeded spelling rules. But didn't we dance this tango before?
http://multiliteracies.ning.com/...ext-messaging-in-the

your link wrote:
Out of 25 students not only one was able to understand the whole text

When the preamble from the english teacher is borderline incomprehensible because the writer jettisoned "unneeded" grammar rules, the rest of the post is not exactly a stunning indictment of same. Texting is teaching kids not to proofread, which ultimately damages the efficacy of the language, no matter how many pointless rules need following.

Also, "wherefore" means "why", so the txt rendition of Romeo and Juliet really shows that we need to shore up basic literacy before we start attacking the parts of the language that don't work.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 24, 2011, 6:56 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
Also, "wherefore" means "why", so the txt rendition of Romeo and Juliet really shows that we need to shore up basic literacy before we start attacking the parts of the language that don't work.

Personally, I don't consider "wherefore" part of "basic" literacy. In thine dropsie filled world of Elizabithian scorn, Such words may be common parlance, but not in mine.

I agree, however, I expect the teacher to know "better".


camhead


Apr 25, 2011, 4:48 AM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.

Yeah, and they're reading way more than I did, too. And we all know that spending 7 hours a day on the internet is exactly the same thing as working your way through Tolkien or Jack London.

Applause for literacy!


robbovius


Apr 25, 2011, 4:55 AM
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Re: [camhead] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.

Yeah, and they're reading way more than I did, too. And we all know that spending 7 hours a day on the internet is exactly the same thing as working your way through Tolkien or Jack London.

Applause for literacy!

what is the sound of one hand clapping?


Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 25, 2011, 6:19 AM
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Re: [camhead] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.

Yeah, and they're reading way more than I did, too. And we all know that spending 7 hours a day on the internet is exactly the same thing as working your way through Tolkien or Jack London.

Applause for literacy!

London? Seriously? I'd rather spend my time searching youtube for videos with titles the same as his book titles than to read that crap again.

For example "Call of the Wild" http://m.youtube.com/.../watch?v=FijKAmTP8l0

Yeah, there were some NSFW ones, but that one is a gem.


notapplicable


Apr 25, 2011, 10:38 AM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.

This site really needs a facepalm emoticon


Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 25, 2011, 10:59 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.

This site really needs a facepalm emoticon

Nah, emoticons are the end of effective communication.


chadnsc


Apr 25, 2011, 11:04 AM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.

This site really needs a facepalm emoticon

Nah, emoticons are the end of effective communication.


So are enigma's posts and she doesn't use emotiocons. Unsure


lena_chita
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Apr 25, 2011, 11:46 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.

This site really needs a facepalm emoticon

Nah, emoticons are the end of effective communication.


So are enigma's posts and she doesn't use emotiocons. Unsure


Yes, she does.

However, back to the OP...

People who are able to spell "conventionally" and enjoy reading literary texts that come in lengths of more than 120 words, are also perfectly capable of "afk, TTYL, C U 2moro". But the reverse isn't true.

I know that every generation has someone lamenting the decline of civilization due to something or other, yet civilization manages to survive.

But I don't have to like it. So I don't!


lena_chita
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Apr 25, 2011, 11:51 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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A quote that seems appropriate in this context:

If thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.

George Orwell


chadnsc


Apr 25, 2011, 11:52 AM
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Good point Lena. I for one can read txt's just fine but being that I've never sent a txt in my life I don't belive I'd be very quick sending them. Crazy


Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 25, 2011, 12:09 PM
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Re: [chadnsc] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.

This site really needs a facepalm emoticon

Nah, emoticons are the end of effective communication.


So are enigma's posts and she doesn't use emotiocons. Unsure

And your posts always have emoticons.


petsfed


Apr 25, 2011, 12:11 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
Yes, she does.

However, back to the OP...

People who are able to spell "conventionally" and enjoy reading literary texts that come in lengths of more than 120 words, are also perfectly capable of "afk, TTYL, C U 2moro". But the reverse isn't true.

I know that every generation has someone lamenting the decline of civilization due to something or other, yet civilization manages to survive.

But I don't have to like it. So I don't!

I was at the bar last night with some english grad-student friends, and the consensus was that txt is a lot like shorthand, a sort of written slang. The key with slang is that it is incredibly contextual, and the whole point of the often over-elaborate rules in any language is to make it comprehensible in the absence of context.

I've heard it suggested that the apostrophe will be obsolete within twenty years, an argument I find patently ridiculous. We need the apostrophe if for no other reason than to draw attention to typos:

"I cant the wheel 20 degrees" vs. "I can't the wheel 20 degrees"

The second doesn't make any sense because the verb clause is incomplete. The presence of the apostrophe brings attention this fact.

"We'll be by later" vs. "Well, be by later"

Etc.


chadnsc


Apr 25, 2011, 12:13 PM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.

This site really needs a facepalm emoticon

Nah, emoticons are the end of effective communication.


So are enigma's posts and she doesn't use emotiocons. Unsure

And your posts always have emoticons.

Not always.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 25, 2011, 12:17 PM
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Re: [chadnsc] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
Good point Lena. I for one can read txt's just fine but being that I've never sent a txt in my life I don't belive I'd be very quick sending them. Crazy

How about posting?


Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 25, 2011, 12:21 PM
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Re: [chadnsc] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
if you are over 30, think how much writing you did as communication to your friends. Now think how much writing kids do today.

They are far more literate than you were at the same age.

The fact that the same communication is finally stripping some of the junk in the english language is another benefit.

And with tablets, literacy rates are only going to climb.

This site really needs a facepalm emoticon

Nah, emoticons are the end of effective communication.


So are enigma's posts and she doesn't use emotiocons. Unsure

And your posts always have emoticons.

Not always.

So are enigma's.


chadnsc


Apr 25, 2011, 12:23 PM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
Good point Lena. I for one can read txt's just fine but being that I've never sent a txt in my life I don't believe I'd be very quick sending them. Crazy

How about posting?

Well if the day is slow and the thread is interesting then I'll post up in a rather speedy fashion.


styndall


Apr 25, 2011, 12:23 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
Yes, she does.

However, back to the OP...

People who are able to spell "conventionally" and enjoy reading literary texts that come in lengths of more than 120 words, are also perfectly capable of "afk, TTYL, C U 2moro". But the reverse isn't true.

I know that every generation has someone lamenting the decline of civilization due to something or other, yet civilization manages to survive.

But I don't have to like it. So I don't!

This isn't true at all. Kids who use text messages are better at conventional language use, not worse.

Here are some bits from an experimental study,Exploring the relationship between children's knowledge of text message abbreviations and school literacy outcomes, by Plester et alia, 2009:

NB: They use the term textism to refer to the kind of abbreviation or variant spelling you list above.

In reply to:
This study has examined the relationship, in 10- to 12-year-old children, between usage of text message abbreviations (‘textisms’) and school literacy attainment. As expected, we found associations between textism use and phonological awareness. What is most important, the extent of children's textism use was able to predict significant variance in their word reading ability after taking into account age, individual differences in vocabulary, working memory, phonological awareness, non-word reading ability, and the age at which participants obtained their first mobile phone. This suggests that children's use of textisms is not only positively associated with word reading ability, but that it may be contributing to reading development in a way that goes beyond simple phonologically based explanations.

...

If we look at the different forms of text abbreviation observed in this study, and how their use was correlated with the literacy measures, we observe some interesting associations that also suggest that the association between textism use and literacy is not just about phonological awareness. For example, there was a high correlation between use of symbols and both reading and spelling scores. These symbolic forms have to have their meanings learned, and so these may be indicative of the children's ability to learn new forms of orthographic representation, and without the corruption of already learned orthographic forms.

...

We have shown that the children who scored the highest in the use of accent stylization also scored highest in standard literacy measures. The element of fun with language is also captured in the high frequency of accent stylization textisms. These engage the children in using phoneme–grapheme conversion rules to create orthographic representations of the language register normally only spoken, ‘street speak’ language, informal and used as a sign of belonging to an in-group for whom the permission rules allow such language use. When questioned informally about using that register of language in schoolwork, the children found even the suggestion ludicrous, suggesting that texting ‘street speak’ indicates metalinguistic awareness.

...

In parallel with the lack of evidence found here for the demise of standard English among the young, we have presented evidence that facility with text literacy is positively associated with standard English literacy. As the possession of mobile phones touches younger and younger children by the year, continuing research into the ways using these phones contributes to developing linguistic competence will be very important. The children studied here are already fairly well established in their written language skills, but as more children receive phones near to the beginning of their primary school years, the interaction between phone use and language skills may have a different profile, and it will be important to know how we might best use texting and other computer mediated communication in the children's repertoire of choice to enhance their language skill acquisition.


(This post was edited by styndall on Apr 25, 2011, 12:24 PM)


Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 25, 2011, 12:32 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
Yes, she does.

However, back to the OP...

People who are able to spell "conventionally" and enjoy reading literary texts that come in lengths of more than 120 words, are also perfectly capable of "afk, TTYL, C U 2moro". But the reverse isn't true.

I know that every generation has someone lamenting the decline of civilization due to something or other, yet civilization manages to survive.

But I don't have to like it. So I don't!

I was at the bar last night with some english grad-student friends, and the consensus was that txt is a lot like shorthand, a sort of written slang. The key with slang is that it is incredibly contextual, and the whole point of the often over-elaborate rules in any language is to make it comprehensible in the absence of context.

I've heard it suggested that the apostrophe will be obsolete within twenty years, an argument I find patently ridiculous. We need the apostrophe if for no other reason than to draw attention to typos:

"I cant the wheel 20 degrees" vs. "I can't the wheel 20 degrees"

The second doesn't make any sense because the verb clause is incomplete. The presence of the apostrophe brings attention this fact.

"We'll be by later" vs. "Well, be by later"

Etc.

I would call the differences inclusive vs. exclusive, with the understanding that no writing can be 100% inclusive nor 100% exclusive.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 25, 2011, 12:40 PM
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Re: [styndall] Txting savs literacy [In reply to]
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styndall wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
Yes, she does.

However, back to the OP...

People who are able to spell "conventionally" and enjoy reading literary texts that come in lengths of more than 120 words, are also perfectly capable of "afk, TTYL, C U 2moro". But the reverse isn't true.

I know that every generation has someone lamenting the decline of civilization due to something or other, yet civilization manages to survive.

But I don't have to like it. So I don't!

This isn't true at all. Kids who use text messages are better at conventional language use, not worse.

Here are some bits from an experimental study,Exploring the relationship between children's knowledge of text message abbreviations and school literacy outcomes, by Plester et alia, 2009:

NB: They use the term textism to refer to the kind of abbreviation or variant spelling you list above.

In reply to:
This study has examined the relationship, in 10- to 12-year-old children, between usage of text message abbreviations (‘textisms’) and school literacy attainment. As expected, we found associations between textism use and phonological awareness. What is most important, the extent of children's textism use was able to predict significant variance in their word reading ability after taking into account age, individual differences in vocabulary, working memory, phonological awareness, non-word reading ability, and the age at which participants obtained their first mobile phone. This suggests that children's use of textisms is not only positively associated with word reading ability, but that it may be contributing to reading development in a way that goes beyond simple phonologically based explanations.

...

If we look at the different forms of text abbreviation observed in this study, and how their use was correlated with the literacy measures, we observe some interesting associations that also suggest that the association between textism use and literacy is not just about phonological awareness. For example, there was a high correlation between use of symbols and both reading and spelling scores. These symbolic forms have to have their meanings learned, and so these may be indicative of the children's ability to learn new forms of orthographic representation, and without the corruption of already learned orthographic forms.

...

We have shown that the children who scored the highest in the use of accent stylization also scored highest in standard literacy measures. The element of fun with language is also captured in the high frequency of accent stylization textisms. These engage the children in using phoneme–grapheme conversion rules to create orthographic representations of the language register normally only spoken, ‘street speak’ language, informal and used as a sign of belonging to an in-group for whom the permission rules allow such language use. When questioned informally about using that register of language in schoolwork, the children found even the suggestion ludicrous, suggesting that texting ‘street speak’ indicates metalinguistic awareness.

...

In parallel with the lack of evidence found here for the demise of standard English among the young, we have presented evidence that facility with text literacy is positively associated with standard English literacy. As the possession of mobile phones touches younger and younger children by the year, continuing research into the ways using these phones contributes to developing linguistic competence will be very important. The children studied here are already fairly well established in their written language skills, but as more children receive phones near to the beginning of their primary school years, the interaction between phone use and language skills may have a different profile, and it will be important to know how we might best use texting and other computer mediated communication in the children's repertoire of choice to enhance their language skill acquisition.


Wholly bat shit crazy. A dumb assed crackpot notion in my head has a basis in fact?

Signs and wonders indeed!!!

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