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ghisino


Apr 27, 2011, 8:26 AM
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short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps
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hi

i am planning to train for the preliminary selections to become climbing instructor (in france).

on the test day you are given three indoors sport routes : you should o/s 2 out of 3.
The grades are not insane but the tricky and hard thing in the selection format is the short recovery time between them : 5 to 10 minutes between routes should be expected, no more.
(they have to run many candidates on the same day...)


I am interested to know if anybody here has ever trained with a similar goal of fast recovery, if yes share your stories!
(i can see the same issue in some competition formats, and maybe in aggressive multipitching?)


ps
of course you can just be very strong (ie regularly onsighting 1 american grade higher than the test routes...5.13 for 5.12 i mean) and not feel any fatigue or pump...this is trivial but my guess is that in my case it would be the harder way around.


rtwilli4


Apr 27, 2011, 9:31 AM
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Re: [ghisino] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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Actually your last statement is getting close to the answer.

Take a climber who can red-point 12a:

He/she will probably have a continuous climbing level of about 9+ or 10a. This means the climber can climb routes at that grade with minimal rest (less than 5 min) for 30 to 45 minutes, or even longer.

This climbers on-sight level is probably around 11a. This will be just a letter grade or two above their Continuous Intensity Repetition (CIR) grade. Your CIR level is the grade at which you can repeat 10 to 15 routes with a decent amount of rest between each route (maybe 15, 20 min).

Obviously you know what a red-point is. The climber may be able to do a 12a in a few tries, maybe more, with 30 to 45 min rest between each attempt.

It sounds like your goal needs to be to get your CIR grade up to the grade that you will be tested at. You won't be doing nearly as many routes as a CIR workout, but you will also have less rest. You should be on-sighting a few letter grades harder than the test.

10a - 6a+
11a - 6c
12a - 7a+

You should also take into account the length of the routes in this specific gym. If it's possible, climb a lot at the gym you will be tested at.

Finally, buy The Self Coached Climber by Dan Hague.


Edited 'cuz I can't spell


(This post was edited by rtwilli4 on Apr 27, 2011, 9:34 AM)


eRJe


Apr 27, 2011, 9:34 AM
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Re: [ghisino] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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I haven't done this type of training specifically for climbing, but I used to do circuit training for Mixxed Martial Arts (5 minute rounds with 1 minute breaks).

The quickest way to reduce your recovery time is to increase your cardio and areobic threshold. Your areobic energy system feeds your anareobic energy system.

Of all the programs I tried circuit training like Cross Fit is best that I found. They have franchises across North America for sure, and likely around the world. They do some weight training, but the training that they do is centered around making you more powerful and explosive rather than giving you big beach muscles. I would check them out, see if you can get a couple of training sessions for free and see how you like them.


ghisino


Apr 28, 2011, 5:25 AM
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Re: [rtwilli4] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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when i mean "stronger" i literally mean in a crux/power endurance sense.

I forgot to say that i have been mainly bouldering in the last 3 years so i guess that my current level on this side is sufficient and harder to improve than other qualities.

i also feel that speaking of physical training, i should focus on "endurance", and specifically the kind of endurance that makes your body recover quickly...at a kneebar rest for an outdoor route, in a few minutes on the ground in my case.

this was the sense of my question, if there's a kind of endurance training that targets this specific issue, rather than the capacity of "not getting pumped" or that of doing those extra 5 moves when the big pump has already set in (two things that i also call "endurance")
(the routes will be short, 15 meters i guess, and the format asks that you climb them as quickly as possible, so i don't see "terminal pump" coming...)


rtwilli4


Apr 28, 2011, 11:14 AM
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Re: [ghisino] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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I really don't know if there is a special type of training to help you get it all back faster than usual.

There are a lot of techniques that people try to get a more efficient shake out. I tend to hold my hand up over my head and shake for a few seconds, then let it hang down toward the ground and shake again. I've heard this helps flush everything out but I honestly can't tell a difference.

Warm up properly before the routes. If you don't know what a proper warm up is, do a search on this site as it's been covered.

Between climbs, massage your arms, swing 'em around, drink some water, stay warm. Being well hydrated will help, as well as eating properly.

When people say recovery they are generally speaking about time between routes, and/or between sessions. Proper nutrition and sleep help a lot but you won't really have time to take a nap during your knee-bar rest so I don't know what else to tell ya.

BTW, what is the problem with just training properly so that you are ready for the routes? Three 15 meter routes is not a huge amount of climbing and I can't imagine that the grade will be that hard. If you are training to become an instructor I don't think trying to squeak through the test is a good start.


Rufsen


Apr 29, 2011, 12:08 AM
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Re: [ghisino] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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Improving your aerobic endurance should help. The "not getting pumped" endurance.

You know the length of the routes and the amount of rest inbetween them, so you have the opportunity to train really spesific.

I would just do a CIR with 15 meter routes, and 5 minutes of rest inbetween. Not getting really pumped and with a goal of increasing your grade over time.

And probably one day a week with anaerobic endurance. Where the goal is being able to to moderately hard moves when you're pumped. In case the routes are too hard to recover completely. Roped intervals on 15 meter routes would probably be best, 1-3 minutes of rest.

tl;dr
Do what rwilli said. And but SCC.


ghisino


Apr 29, 2011, 2:12 AM
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Re: [rtwilli4] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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rtwilli4 wrote:
trying to squeak through the test is a good start.

i don't see it as "trying to squeak".

each year i set myself a climbing objective some months ahead, adress my weaknesses in regards to it, and work on them.
Eg syked about frankenjura but weak on pockets=>hangboarding on pockets for months before the trip


For this year objective I think that my weakness #1 is the limited rest time.
Bear in mind : with some luck i could probably pass the test today. My goal is to be *almost sure* to pass it, even in very unfavourable conditions.

Of course i have other weak links but i think i see more clearly how to work the out, or they feel less crucial : lack of a comp-like warmup routine, skin/friction indoors @ 25° celsius, deling with comp-like pressure, limited knowledge of artificial holds shapes and texture... and so on...


viciado


Apr 29, 2011, 5:04 AM
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Re: [ghisino] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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Are you doing the certification through CAF? That is the only certification that I know of there. It is the standard for France, Spain and Portugal anyway. and is recognized by the UIAA among other entities. If so, the protocol is pretty strict and you generally have to work your way up through the levels. What I would interpret from the French as "instructor" is not the introductory level. Guide would be another step or two beyond depending on the range of activities you propose to guide. (It sounds like you are doing the Moniteur level. Sorry, the charts are not available to me in English, so there may be a misinterpretation on my part of what you want.)

I did not find the Instructor test to be too physically demanding, but you do need to demonstrate technical knowledge and ability. There is also the issue of the "standardized" safety protocols. Being physically able to climb the prescribed routes is not the objective of the test. They are looking for overall competence for instruction and safety/risk management of your eventual students and any observers.

edit to add:

Regarding training... endurance training as mentioned above involves good cardio-vascular work (which climbing alone generally does not provide) and low intensity climbing for 20 to 30 minute sets avoiding getting overly pumped.


(This post was edited by viciado on Apr 29, 2011, 5:14 AM)


ghisino


Apr 29, 2011, 5:37 AM
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Re: [viciado] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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i'm going for the the "brevet d'etat" , that's a national qualification (ie it's run by the french ministry of sport) that allows you to basically be a mountain guide restricted to rock climbing and canyoning only, below 1500 meters.

good for me since i don't like the idea of betting my life on frozen water's conditions...

the pre-selections are made with a gym test and an interview about your multipitch experience (both trad and sport, you need to present a CV meeting a number of criteria and prove that you really did the routes and learned some lessons from them)

then you have 10 "stages" (a short masterclass on a specific subject, eg didactics, sketchy trad climbing, physical training, etc.. each one with its own examination) and a final exam.
you can ask a grant for partial refunding of these stages as if it was university.

I want to be really sure i pass the pre-selection because that's the last year this is being run...from next year, the law changes and there will be something called "diplome d'état" who only allows you to work in a gym or on single-pitch crags, asking less salary, and at the same time will cost much more!!!


viciado


Apr 29, 2011, 6:04 AM
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Re: [ghisino] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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Okay, so it IS essentially the instructor level you are talking about. It is the certification that I have (brevet) and is roughly equivalent to the AMGA's recent rock instructor cert. (If I remember the title correctly). Sorry to distract from the original question, just wanted to be sure what you were talking about.

Enjoy the process and good luck!


ceebo


May 1, 2011, 5:15 PM
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Re: [ghisino] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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In reply to:
ps
of course you can just be very strong (ie regularly onsighting 1 american grade higher than the test routes...5.13 for 5.12 i mean) and not feel any fatigue or pump...this is trivial but my guess is that in my case it would be the harder way around.

Build your aerobic endurance up on slight overhang to 5.10c or more and do 1 or 2 finger board sessions per week.


shockabuku


May 2, 2011, 10:25 AM
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Re: [ghisino] short recovery between routes/pitches/attemps [In reply to]
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Typical competition formats here include 5 min. rests between routes.

One technique I've seen for that is to climb multiple routes in a set, i.e. climb three routes, swap with your partner who does the same, then swap back and do it again.


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