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cjon3s


May 24, 2011, 2:40 PM
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Clipping Question
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Alright, so I recently got into a debate with some folks over this.

For simplicity, just pretend it's setting up a top rope climb off of bolts using two draws.

The bolts also have rap rings or chain hanging off. I said always clips the bolt. I think it lessens the number of components in the system and is easier.

The other group contended that this was unsafe and that you should always clip the rings or chain. My thinking here is that they could be weakened from having the rope run through them constantly. Obviously, extreme wear would be evident and you wouldn't clip. But, nonetheless...

Are both of these methods safe or are there any unseen risks with either method?


kennoyce


May 24, 2011, 2:47 PM
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Re: [cjon3s] Clipping Question [In reply to]
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they are both perfectly safe methods


bearbreeder


May 24, 2011, 2:52 PM
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Re: [cjon3s] Clipping Question [In reply to]
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the chains can keep the angle between the draws lower ... and reduce the loading of the draws over an edge on certain anchors ...

also note that some bolts are spaced diagonally ... in this case clipping the chains or one of the chains can keep the draws at roughly the same height ...

nothing wrong with clipping bolt hangers if they are level and in a good position


Partner robdotcalm


May 24, 2011, 5:10 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] Clipping Question [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
they are both perfectly safe methods

Nothing is "perfectly safe". As already mentioned by another poster, it depends on the hardware and how it's positioned.

Rob.calm


redonkulus


May 24, 2011, 5:39 PM
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Re: [cjon3s] Clipping Question [In reply to]
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Also consider if you have a person top-roping who will end up cleaning the draws. If the hangars only have one rap ring on each, and you have the draws clipped directly to the hangars, you will have to shuffle your girth hitched slings/PAS or whatever to somehow clip them to the hangars, so that you can thread the rope through the rings.

It's not a huge problem, it just makes things a little more difficult. If you clip the draws to the rings, then you get to the top, clip into the hangars, remove the draws, and thread the rings. Saves a bit of time and makes it less complicated (and potentially less dangerous).


potreroed


May 24, 2011, 11:22 PM
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Really makes no difference except in a very few situations where you might want the full extension of the chains--like bearbreeder mentioned.


gwyn


May 25, 2011, 12:05 AM
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I prefer to clip the hanger for anchoring as it is less gear in the system meaning less fixed gear to check. That said, if clipping into the hangers makes the carabiners lie oddly, then it would be better to clip into the fixed ring/chain. For example, clipping in above the fixed ring/chain which causes the carabiner to load over "an edge" (the edge being the fixed gear) which could cause the carabiner to fail; yes, yes, one can mitigate this by clipping under the fixed gear but sometimes it still doesn't lie quite right and clipping into the ring/chain is best in that situation. Perhaps this situation is what worried your friends.

By the bye, I've seen fixed rappel chains/rings that might be fine for the forces generated on rappel but perhaps not so fine for top rope (with slack in the system) or lead anchors.

redonkulus wrote:
If you clip the draws to the rings, then you get to the top, clip into the hangars, remove the draws, and thread the rings. Saves a bit of time and makes it less complicated (and potentially less dangerous).

It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings.


michael1245


May 25, 2011, 5:46 AM
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Re: [cjon3s] Clipping Question [In reply to]
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cjon3s wrote:
Alright, so I recently got into a debate with some folks over this.

For simplicity, just pretend it's setting up a top rope climb off of bolts using two draws.

The bolts also have rap rings or chain hanging off. I said always clips the bolt. I think it lessens the number of components in the system and is easier.

The other group contended that this was unsafe and that you should always clip the rings or chain. My thinking here is that they could be weakened from having the rope run through them constantly. Obviously, extreme wear would be evident and you wouldn't clip. But, nonetheless...

Are both of these methods safe or are there any unseen risks with either method?

I clip the bolts.

Why? Someone who knows better than me once told me to. Since then, I've stuck with it.


lena_chita
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May 25, 2011, 8:29 AM
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cjon3s wrote:
Alright, so I recently got into a debate with some folks over this.

For simplicity, just pretend it's setting up a top rope climb off of bolts using two draws.

The bolts also have rap rings or chain hanging off. I said always clips the bolt. I think it lessens the number of components in the system and is easier.

The other group contended that this was unsafe and that you should always clip the rings or chain. My thinking here is that they could be weakened from having the rope run through them constantly. Obviously, extreme wear would be evident and you wouldn't clip. But, nonetheless...

Are both of these methods safe or are there any unseen risks with either method?

Neither method is inherently less safe than the other, the decision would be made based on other factors.

For example, in many cases clipping into the bolts would make the bottom 'biners of the anchor quickdraws lie against the rock and create the situation of rope rubbing against the rock, so it would be better to clip the chains, instead of the bolts.

I prefer to clip into the chains, but not into the last link of the chain, or into the rap ring, bc that way it is easier for the person who is eventually cleaning the route to put the bight of rope through the rap rings.

Edited for my attrocious typing skills.


(This post was edited by lena_chita on May 25, 2011, 10:23 AM)


cjon3s


May 25, 2011, 8:57 AM
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Okay, cool. Thanks for all the responses everyone. Smile


redonkulus


May 25, 2011, 9:20 AM
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Re: [gwyn] Clipping Question [In reply to]
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gwyn wrote:
It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings.


Yeah, it's just a little more crowded, and might be a bit confusing for a beginner. It's more of an inconvenience thing than anything else. Especially if you thread a bight through the rap rings like I do, rather than untying and just putting the end of the rope through.


gwyn


May 25, 2011, 9:57 AM
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redonkulus wrote:
gwyn wrote:
It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings.

Yeah, it's just a little more crowded, and might be a bit confusing for a beginner. It's more of an inconvenience thing than anything else. Especially if you thread a bight through the rap rings like I do, rather than untying and just putting the end of the rope through.

If you are threading a bight through then I assume you mean to be lowered and will tie in with the bight before untying the rope end. Is there need to secure yourself to the anchor since you'd remain on belay whilst you set up to be lowered? I thought that was the point of threading a bight of rope through the ring: to stay on belay the entire time. I typically rap or walk off or, better still, be the first one up and let someone else clean the anchors, so perhaps my assumption that you'd be lowered is wrong.


jt512


May 25, 2011, 12:47 PM
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gwyn wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
gwyn wrote:
It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings.

Yeah, it's just a little more crowded, and might be a bit confusing for a beginner. It's more of an inconvenience thing than anything else. Especially if you thread a bight through the rap rings like I do, rather than untying and just putting the end of the rope through.

If you are threading a bight through then I assume you mean to be lowered and will tie in with the bight before untying the rope end. Is there need to secure yourself to the anchor since you'd remain on belay whilst you set up to be lowered?

You need to get your weight off the rope somehow. Gonna' be awfully tough to get that bight of rope through the anchors otherwise.

Jay


redonkulus


May 25, 2011, 12:57 PM
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jt512 wrote:
gwyn wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
gwyn wrote:
It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings.

Yeah, it's just a little more crowded, and might be a bit confusing for a beginner. It's more of an inconvenience thing than anything else. Especially if you thread a bight through the rap rings like I do, rather than untying and just putting the end of the rope through.

If you are threading a bight through then I assume you mean to be lowered and will tie in with the bight before untying the rope end. Is there need to secure yourself to the anchor since you'd remain on belay whilst you set up to be lowered?

You need to get your weight off the rope somehow. Gonna' be awfully tough to get that bight of rope through the anchors otherwise.

Jay

Right on.


gwyn


May 25, 2011, 1:57 PM
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jt512 wrote:
gwyn wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
gwyn wrote:
It is possible to clip your personal anchor to the rings and thread the rope through the rings.

Yeah, it's just a little more crowded, and might be a bit confusing for a beginner. It's more of an inconvenience thing than anything else. Especially if you thread a bight through the rap rings like I do, rather than untying and just putting the end of the rope through.

If you are threading a bight through then I assume you mean to be lowered and will tie in with the bight before untying the rope end. Is there need to secure yourself to the anchor since you'd remain on belay whilst you set up to be lowered?

You need to get your weight off the rope somehow. Gonna' be awfully tough to get that bight of rope through the anchors otherwise.

Jay

Ah, good point. I had thought that I was missing something; thank you for pointing it out. Perhaps I'll try this method one day when cleaning an anchor, instead of rappelling.


sungam


May 26, 2011, 1:00 AM
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michael1245 wrote:
I clip the bolts.

Why? Someone who knows better than me once told me to. Since then, I've stuck with it.
Seriously, this is the wrong mindset in climbing.


superchuffer


May 26, 2011, 11:12 AM
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sportclimbers have the silliest 'problems'

insert thread on which direction the gate should go..






....here


cjon3s


May 26, 2011, 11:17 AM
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...it wasn't a problem. there was disagreement about whether something was safe or not and I wanted clarification.


essay


May 26, 2011, 12:42 PM
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Yea, and this is probably the best place to get clarification on the subject of clmbing. I always take climbing advice from perfect strangers, how else would one get such well edited advice? In the future, why not just write responses on the wall and start throwing darts, it's proabaly safer than asking the illustrious folks at Rockclimbing.com


cjon3s


May 26, 2011, 12:50 PM
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Advice is taken with a grain if salt. Asking for it doesn't mean I'll take it. I had my way of doing things that was safe.

Sorry that my asking for clarification offended you so bad. Good grief. Next time I'll grab the ol' dart board and get to it instead of asking on a cliimbing forum.


Toast_in_the_Machine


May 26, 2011, 2:38 PM
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essay wrote:
Yea, and this is probably the best place to get clarification on the subject of clmbing. I always take climbing advice from perfect strangers, how else would one get such well edited advice? In the future, why not just write responses on the wall and start throwing darts, it's proabaly safer than asking the illustrious folks at Rockclimbing.com

RC.com is the best place.


sungam


May 26, 2011, 2:53 PM
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What the hell? Did I get moderated? Seriously? Or did I just forget to post?

Anyways, I said you need a thicker skin. Just because two people gave you shit doesn't mean you should run away. Shrug it off and continue to form your own opinions with as much salty rc.com advice as you want.


cjon3s


May 26, 2011, 4:13 PM
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Hah im not running away. Ill take everything as it comes. I hang out here a bit, but rarely ask questions. I know how to pick out the good from the bad or who I think I can trust.


moose_droppings


May 26, 2011, 6:00 PM
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It's easier to ask a dumb question than correct a dumb mistake.


I'm not saying the question was dumb either, just saying.


sungam


May 26, 2011, 6:01 PM
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cjon3s wrote:
Hah im not running away. Ill take everything as it comes. I hang out here a bit, but rarely ask questions. I know how to pick out the good from the bad or who I think I can trust.
Well, you probably know enough not to trust me, then. Tongue

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