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cbentley
May 29, 2011, 9:09 PM
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Getting back into climbing after a long hiatus. My daughter (9 years) is pretty good at climbing, but I do not trust her yet to clean a route nor do I want her to sit at a belay station by herself. This means I have to bring her up 2nd on a separate rope, and have my wife come up 3rd on the lead rope and clean the route.
I am currently using a Petzl Nomad 9.8mm 70 meter rope. Getting a 2nd one of these seems overkill and too heavy. I do not expect doing extra-long pitches so the 70 meter rope might also be adding unnecessary weight. I would also like to use the 2nd rope for rappelling.
We climb at Red Rock, Las Vegas.
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panacea82
May 29, 2011, 9:26 PM
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What i do on a climb is have a lead rope and then a trail rope. At the top of the climb set up both ropes through a reverso or atc guide that is set up for auto lock (google that if you dont know how to use it) then both climbers can climb safely while you pull slack through the rope at the top.
The only thing that gets tricky is rope management and sometimes keeping up with pulling slack.
BTW; Yur gonna die!
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justanotherclimber
May 29, 2011, 9:44 PM
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get a half rope for your daughter- 8.5mm-ish. Certified for leading in a pinch, much lighter than a regular rope. Combine with an ATC-guide (or other guide plate) for belaying.
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porthillsclimber
May 29, 2011, 10:10 PM
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you could take a 50m or 60m 8mm half rope. they look pretty skinny but are rated to take lead falls. your daughter could climb on this.
the other option would be for you to lead on two half ropes. your daughter and wife would then follow on one rope each the your daughter could just un-clip the gear and leave it the gear in place for your wife to remove. i think this would be the best option and it would also give you the two ropes you want for rappelling.
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LineoFire
May 29, 2011, 10:14 PM
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the second shouldn't be cleaning the gear in a party of three. just clipping a trail rope through the piece/sling/etc. if the gear is gone then the third person is not protected from a swing on anything but a dead vertical pitch. surely you could teach your daughter to unclip her rope then clip in a trail line.
all told, your daughter can be tied in to the lead line and your wife could belay you.
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rtwilli4
May 29, 2011, 11:07 PM
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Lots of ways to do this. As others have recommended, a half/double rope is fine for either your daughter or wife to follow on. You gotta make sure though, however you do it, that both the second and third climbers' ropes are clipped into at least a few directionals to protect them from pendulums and whatnot.
Probably the best way to do it, as someone mentioned, is to have your daughter follow you on the lead line, and she can trail up the half rope. She'll unclip the lead line and clip back the half rope. Then you belay your wife up on the half.
If she can't unclip and clip gear, maybe she shouldn't be following multi-pitch trad yet? Up to you I guess, but the other way for you to do it is to trail both ropes, and clip the half rope into a separate biner (or the same one) on important directionals. That way your daughter will only have to unclip a handful of pieces, and then your wife will follow up and clean.
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JAB
May 30, 2011, 3:15 PM
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porthillsclimber wrote: the other option would be for you to lead on two half ropes. your daughter and wife would then follow on one rope each the your daughter could just un-clip the gear and leave it the gear in place for your wife to remove.
I would not recommend this. There is a risk that your wife will not notice some of the unclipped gear, especially if they are even a bit to the side of her climbing line. Already after a couple of pitches it is almost certain that some gear will be lost.
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jammer
May 30, 2011, 4:30 PM
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JAB wrote: porthillsclimber wrote: the other option would be for you to lead on two half ropes. your daughter and wife would then follow on one rope each the your daughter could just un-clip the gear and leave it the gear in place for your wife to remove. I would not recommend this. There is a risk that your wife will not notice some of the unclipped gear, especially if they are even a bit to the side of her climbing line. Already after a couple of pitches it is almost certain that some gear will be lost.
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cfnubbler
May 30, 2011, 5:34 PM
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jammer wrote: JAB wrote: porthillsclimber wrote: the other option would be for you to lead on two half ropes. your daughter and wife would then follow on one rope each the your daughter could just un-clip the gear and leave it the gear in place for your wife to remove. I would not recommend this. There is a risk that your wife will not notice some of the unclipped gear, especially if they are even a bit to the side of her climbing line. Already after a couple of pitches it is almost certain that some gear will be lost. Yes, I have lost some cams this way. I would suggest that your daughter learn how to remove gear. Practice on an easy grade where she feels comfortable on the stances. When she has learned how to do this, climbing at her limit will be fine since she would be on top rope anyway.
The other option (assuming you're using at least one single rope in your system) is to clip both ropes through every piece, while being belayed only on one of them. You can then have the first follower just unclip her rope from each piece, leaving the final climber protected from any pendulum issues, and responsible for cleaning the gear.
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jammer
May 30, 2011, 6:35 PM
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cfnubbler wrote: jammer wrote: JAB wrote: porthillsclimber wrote: the other option would be for you to lead on two half ropes. your daughter and wife would then follow on one rope each the your daughter could just un-clip the gear and leave it the gear in place for your wife to remove. I would not recommend this. There is a risk that your wife will not notice some of the unclipped gear, especially if they are even a bit to the side of her climbing line. Already after a couple of pitches it is almost certain that some gear will be lost. Yes, I have lost some cams this way. I would suggest that your daughter learn how to remove gear. Practice on an easy grade where she feels comfortable on the stances. When she has learned how to do this, climbing at her limit will be fine since she would be on top rope anyway. The other option (assuming you're using at least one single rope in your system) is to clip both ropes through every piece, while being belayed only on one of them. You can then have the first follower just unclip her rope from each piece, leaving the final climber protected from any pendulum issues, and responsible for cleaning the gear.
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cbentley
May 30, 2011, 8:45 PM
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Thank you very much for all the responses. They are very much appreciated. It appears that the 2 best solutions are:
Option 1:
-Leader climbs on full rope and trails half rope (trailing is only necessary if using different rope sizes or using a single rope belay device, i.e. Grigri). Both ropes are clipped into protection.
-2nd climber climbs on one of the 2 ropes and unclips only their rope from protection
-3rd climber climbs on the remaining rope and cleans
Option 2:
-Leader climbs on full rope
-2nd climber climbs on full rope, trails 2nd rope. They would have to unclip their climbing rope and clip in the trail rope.
-3rd climber climbs on the remaining rope and cleans
Option 1 sounds less complicated. The other benefit to option 1 is that both climbers could climb simultaneously.
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rtwilli4
May 30, 2011, 9:06 PM
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cbentley wrote: Thank you very much for all the responses. They are very much appreciated. It appears that the 2 best solutions are: Option 1: -Leader climbs on full rope and trails half rope (trailing is only necessary if using different rope sizes or using a single rope belay device, i.e. Grigri). Both ropes are clipped into protection. -2nd climber climbs on one of the 2 ropes and unclips only their rope from protection -3rd climber climbs on the remaining rope and cleans Option 2: -Leader climbs on full rope -2nd climber climbs on full rope, trails 2nd rope. They would have to unclip their climbing rope and clip in the trail rope. -3rd climber climbs on the remaining rope and cleans Option 1 sounds less complicated. The other benefit to option 1 is that both climbers could climb simultaneously.
Personally I think your daughter would have an easier time with option two. She has small hands. Taking one rope out of a biner and keeping the other in can sometimes be tough for a new climber who is hanging on with one hand. There is also the problem of her unclipping the wrong rope, and/or getting the ropes twisted.
Option two doesn't allow both climbers to climb at once, but I have a bit of experience in this and I think that your daughter will do better unclipping her rope and then clipping the trail line. Each piece will be exactly the same process, while in option one she'll have to pay attention to each piece separartely, making sure to get the right rope and not cross them up. Also... small hands.
Get her to practice on the ground. I bet you'll see her struggle with getting one rope out of the biner and leaving the other in without any tangling. If she can do this, she's probably competent cleaning gear.
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rgold
May 31, 2011, 3:50 PM
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porthillsclimber wrote: ...the other option would be for you to lead on two half ropes. your daughter and wife would then follow on one rope each the your daughter could just un-clip the gear and leave it the gear in place for your wife to remove. i think this would be the best option and it would also give you the two ropes you want for rappelling.
I've done this numerous times (but I use half ropes for everthing so am very used to the handling issues). I think it is by far the best solution when one of the climbers is a child. The belay should be set up so that both climbers climb simultaneously, with the adult trailing the child by a few feet. The additional advantages in terms of the safety and speed of the party and the child's psychology would argue for this method even if clipping and removing gear wasn't an issue.
With one climber following the other closely, no unclipped gear will be missed because the trailing climber will be right there. I've never lost any gear with this system.
When gear is required to mitigate pendulum potential, both ropes may have to be clipped to the same directional piece. In this case, clip one rope with a short sling and the other rope with a long sling so that the ropes are separated and so that the child can unclip their rope without messing with the other rope at all.
By the way, when it comes time to rappel, the best (and obvious) sequence is, adult goes first to untangle snags and get established at next anchor or ground. Child goes second with "fireman's belay" from adult below. Second adult rappels.
Perhaps the only non-obvious thing here is the fireman's belay. Don't rig a child with a rappel back up---if they manage to get stuck part-way down the party is in for an epic. Also, be extremely careful to make sure that neither the kid's hair or clothing can get caught in the rappel device.
When considering some of the other recommendations, I would urge you not to assume that a few operations practiced by a child near ground level can be performed up high under circumstances that may be more stressful, either unexpectedly or because of unanticipated circumstances. I think the double rope simul-climbing set-up is a much better way to keep things fun and safe.
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bearbreeder
May 31, 2011, 4:39 PM
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i would suggest a tandem rappel for the child the first few times
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mikebarter387
Jun 1, 2011, 2:32 PM
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My question is why would you take a 9 year old child on a climb like this. The fact that you are here asking about ropes and such has me wondering about your ability to consider all the possible consequences.
I have two teenage daughters that climb but would never consider what your doing till they aquired enough skill and judgement.
I guess your in Vegas so you pays your money you take your chances.
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rgold
Jun 1, 2011, 2:51 PM
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Mike has a point.
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cbentley
Jun 1, 2011, 5:45 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: My question is why would you take a 9 year old child on a climb like this. The fact that you are here asking about ropes and such has me wondering about your ability to consider all the possible consequences. I have two teenage daughters that climb but would never consider what your doing till they aquired enough skill and judgement. I guess your in Vegas so you pays your money you take your chances.
Please slow down with the criticism. My post in no way implies what level of climbs I plan to do. The fact is that nearly all easy climbs at Red Rock 5.7 and below are traditional, sometimes involving a walk off, hence the need for 2 ropes. I could of course simply use the end of my 70m rope to bring up my daughter on top rope, but even a 50ft 5.3 could traverse and create pendulum issues, since there would be no directional. It would also decrease the margin of error on rope and pitch length. In my mind it is better to learn and practice on a 5.3 the same way you will do a climb on a 6 pitch 5.12 several years from now. The fact that I don’t want my daughter on a belay station by herself (whether on the ground or in the future on a multi-pitch) or messing with cleaning gear implies safety, not irresponsibility. She is fully capable of rappelling on a figure 8 and ATC. Despite her capability I still insist on a fireman’s belay.
Please consider that people reading and posting on forums are there to learn. It’s the people that who don’t hear from that end up in the local newspaper. I don’t think it should be necessary to add a resume to a question posted on a form, to prove ones experience, judgment, and knowledge. I am a pilot and participate in a very active forum that is dedicated to the aircraft I fly. Someone on the forum once did a study and established that most serious and fatal accidents were attributable to non-participants. Posts like yours just simply discourage people to get involved. Although it is important to point out possible dangers or concerns about a posters intent, there are more diplomatic ways to get your point across.
You are questioning my judgment from a 1 paragraph post. Is that really enough information for you to draw conclusions? Your Las Vegas comment was especially unnecessary. I was looking for climbing advice, not parenting guidance.
Since you are so concerned, I am happy to report that I have somehow managed for my daughter to grow up without ingesting household cleaners, getting hit by a car, falling off a cliff, left locked in a hot car, stranded in the desert, etc. I even make her wear a seat-belt in the car and a helmet when riding her bike.
BTW thank you to all the people who responded to my questions. Reading multiple opinions expands on the what-if scenarios, especially in situations where there are multiple ways to do something correctly.
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mikebarter387
Jun 1, 2011, 8:45 PM
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How do you know that your daughter will ever climb 5.12 six pitches off the deck several years from now or is that something you would like to do. How do you know she will want to climb anything. Sorry that you take offense to my line of questioning but it still stands. What rope to buy is the last thing you should be asking or better put you shouldn’t have to ask as it is such a simple matter.
End-roping is the ultimate solution to you daughter must climb multi-pitch before becoming ten. It is how most guides around here deal with bringing up two clients on moderate terrain that you describe.
The pilot thing is meaningless to me. I have seen (real) brain surgeons belaying off their gear loops. I’ve had CEO’s of major corporations unclip from the anchor 10 pitch’s off the deck and stand on the brink of death for no explained reason other then they thought it was something I wanted them to do. I have learnt that education is no way to measure intelligence. Common sense is far rarer then most people think.
Good luck, I have spoken. From where the sun now stands I shall speak no more.
(This post was edited by mikebarter387 on Jun 1, 2011, 9:06 PM)
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justanotherclimber
Jun 2, 2011, 5:22 AM
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cbentley wrote: The fact is that nearly all easy climbs at Red Rock 5.7 and below are traditional, sometimes involving a walk off,
this is untrue. there are several walls- Panty, Hamlet, the new Meetup wall, and a few others in Calico that are full of sport 5.7s and under. Might I suggest exploring these areas more fully?
also, there are tons of easy traditional routes that are short (moderate mecca, ragged edges, etc, etc) and only need one rope as the climbs are only around 50' in length.
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