|
majid_sabet
May 20, 2011, 4:31 AM
Post #1 of 21
(15702 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
SOUTH LAKE TAHOE, Calif. — Two rock climbers were brought to safety Saturday night following an “extremely dangerous” rescue mission at a popular Lake Tahoe area rock formation, according to a statement from El Dorado County Sheriff's Lt. Les Lovell.
http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/...p;parentprofile=1056
|
|
|
|
|
cliffhanger2040
May 22, 2011, 12:50 AM
Post #2 of 21
(15558 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 57
|
The route was Bears Reach. The fall was after the second belay ledge. I was the belayer on the climb. I am really curious about why the gear didn't hold. If anyone climbs this route in the near future (fall was on 5/14/11) and can see any signs of rock breaking, gear breaking etc. I would greatly appreciate an update.
|
|
|
|
|
Vegasclimber10
May 22, 2011, 1:35 AM
Post #3 of 21
(15541 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2010
Posts: 188
|
Hey Cliff, sounds like it was a bad deal. How is your partner doing? I haven't seen any after reports.
The report sounded like you guys were in a pretty bad situation with no survival gear.
Majid, in the future it would be really cool if you would A. at least get a report from a reliable source - reporters often have no idea what they are talking about and B - give your OWN analysis of what happened.
But you've already been told this more times then I can count I think.
|
|
|
|
|
cliffhanger2040
May 22, 2011, 1:42 AM
Post #4 of 21
(15532 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 57
|
My partner is ok. He posted a trip report elsewhere. I'm letting him dictate where it goes since he is the one that was leading and the one that got hurt. We definately learned a lot from the experience. I will try to get him to post his report on here.
|
|
|
|
|
Vegasclimber10
May 22, 2011, 2:01 AM
Post #5 of 21
(15518 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2010
Posts: 188
|
I'm glad you learned and VERY glad you're both OK. Will look forward to the report if he chooses to post it up here.
Be safe out there!
|
|
|
|
|
djlachelt
May 22, 2011, 4:20 AM
Post #6 of 21
(15452 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2005
Posts: 261
|
Vegasclimber10 wrote: Majid, in the future it would be really cool if you would A. at least get a report from a reliable source - reporters often have no idea what they are talking about and B - give your OWN analysis of what happened. But you've already been told this more times then I can count I think.
Actually, I think I remember people telling him NOT to give any analysis... just the "facts".
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
May 23, 2011, 12:00 AM
Post #7 of 21
(15366 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
Vegasclimber10 wrote: Hey Cliff, sounds like it was a bad deal. How is your partner doing? I haven't seen any after reports. The report sounded like you guys were in a pretty bad situation with no survival gear. Majid, in the future it would be really cool if you would A. at least get a report from a reliable source - reporters often have no idea what they are talking about and B - give your OWN analysis of what happened. But you've already been told this more times then I can count I think.
I try to stay out of analyzing accident reports in here especially when I do not know the true level of tolerance(flaming) of most RCers . To do a good analysis,you need to have all facts and gathering that sort of information takes time and great cooperation by all involving parties which is practically difficult. I guess the best thing we can do is post the initial report and hope for information to follow and fill up the gaps and so far, 70% of the time this method had worked.
I know its not the best but IMO, its better than nothing .
MS
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
May 23, 2011, 2:08 PM
Post #8 of 21
(15250 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
majid_sabet wrote: Vegasclimber10 wrote: Hey Cliff, sounds like it was a bad deal. How is your partner doing? I haven't seen any after reports. The report sounded like you guys were in a pretty bad situation with no survival gear. Majid, in the future it would be really cool if you would A. at least get a report from a reliable source - reporters often have no idea what they are talking about and B - give your OWN analysis of what happened. But you've already been told this more times then I can count I think. I try to stay out of analyzing accident reports in here especially when I do not know the true level of tolerance(flaming) of most RCers . To do a good analysis,you need to have all facts and gathering that sort of information takes time and great cooperation by all involving parties which is practically difficult. I guess the best thing we can do is post the initial report and hope for information to follow and fill up the gaps and so far, 70% of the time this method had worked. I know its not the best but IMO, its better than nothing . MS 
I see nothing wrong with posting articles and/or the little facts that are known without analysis. As Majid said, it is difficult to give an analysis with incomplete facts. As more facts become known and added to the thread, the analysis can begin.
|
|
|
|
|
kennoyce
May 23, 2011, 2:56 PM
Post #9 of 21
(15208 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1338
|
cliffhanger2040 wrote: My partner is ok. He posted a trip report elsewhere. I'm letting him dictate where it goes since he is the one that was leading and the one that got hurt. We definately learned a lot from the experience. I will try to get him to post his report on here.
I'd be interested in reading the trip report, if you could post a link to it I'd appreciate it.
Glad that everyone is okay. If the news report is right about 80-100ft then your partner is very lucky.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
May 23, 2011, 2:57 PM
Post #11 of 21
(15206 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
csproul wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Vegasclimber10 wrote: Hey Cliff, sounds like it was a bad deal. How is your partner doing? I haven't seen any after reports. The report sounded like you guys were in a pretty bad situation with no survival gear. Majid, in the future it would be really cool if you would A. at least get a report from a reliable source - reporters often have no idea what they are talking about and B - give your OWN analysis of what happened. But you've already been told this more times then I can count I think. I try to stay out of analyzing accident reports in here especially when I do not know the true level of tolerance(flaming) of most RCers . To do a good analysis,you need to have all facts and gathering that sort of information takes time and great cooperation by all involving parties which is practically difficult. I guess the best thing we can do is post the initial report and hope for information to follow and fill up the gaps and so far, 70% of the time this method had worked. I know its not the best but IMO, its better than nothing . MS This is an amazingly lucid post using fairly good English...Majid, is that really you? I see nothing wrong with posting articles and/or the little facts that are known without analysis. As Majid said, it is difficult to give an analysis with incomplete facts. As more facts become known and added to the thread, the analysis can begin.
I can even write like a senator if I want to but you guys wouldn't be able to pickup on me so let's just keep it the wabitt way
|
|
|
|
|
viciado
May 23, 2011, 3:08 PM
Post #12 of 21
(15196 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2003
Posts: 429
|
majid_sabet wrote: I can even write like a senator if I want to but you guys wouldn't be able to pickup on me so let's just keep it the wabitt way
Nope, that's just USNavy.
|
|
|
|
|
Vegasclimber10
May 23, 2011, 8:46 PM
Post #13 of 21
(15058 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2010
Posts: 188
|
Good points all, I guess that (as usual) I should have thought more and been clearer about my post.
First off, I would like to state again that I am glad the people involved are OK, and I would be interested in hearing the leader's analysis of the accident.
The point that I was trying to make was that, given Majid's experience level and time spent in SAR teams, I would think he may have contacts that he can speak to regarding accidents, rather then to quote a reporter that may or may not have any idea what they are talking about.
I would be interested in learning more about how such rescues are performed - I have no idea about the nuts and bolts of performing vertical rescue, but would love to read about it. I'm sure Majid could provide that information as well. For instance, if they did a short haul, what would be involved in that, etc.
Also due to his experience, I would hope he would be willing to research the information further and then perhaps provide analysis with his wealth of knowledge.
I appreciate the links that he brings to us, but I would really like to see more information given, rather then just posting a link from a Google search. Anyone could do that, but if we could learn more about SAR, I for one would be very appreciative. And I know Majid has a lot to offer in that area, and was simply trying to get him to come out of his shell a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
sethg
May 24, 2011, 2:03 PM
Post #14 of 21
(14915 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2006
Posts: 134
|
kennoyce wrote: cliffhanger2040 wrote: My partner is ok. He posted a trip report elsewhere. I'm letting him dictate where it goes since he is the one that was leading and the one that got hurt. We definately learned a lot from the experience. I will try to get him to post his report on here. I'd be interested in reading the trip report, if you could post a link to it I'd appreciate it. Glad that everyone is okay. If the news report is right about 80-100ft then your partner is very lucky.
The climber posted a link to his report on supertopo, so it's already totally public.
http://tantrikclimber.blogspot.com/
Here's the supertopo thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/...t-rescue-Lovers-Leap
|
|
|
|
|
Vegasclimber10
May 24, 2011, 2:06 PM
Post #15 of 21
(14910 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 23, 2010
Posts: 188
|
Thanks for sharing Seth!
|
|
|
|
|
sethg
May 24, 2011, 2:27 PM
Post #16 of 21
(14887 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2006
Posts: 134
|
Also, it would be great if the climber and/or the belayer could provide a little more information. I understand if they don't want to talk about it, but it would be useful to the larger community and possibly to them to talk about what happened. What they've said so far i find confusing.
Putting what they've said in the blog post, here and on supertopo together, it sounds like the leader had climbed up about thirty feet from the belay, and had four pieces of pro in when he fell. The two top pieces were a nut and a cam placed in the same corner. All four pieces ripped in the fall.
Apparently the gear anchor held, but it is unclear to me if it was ever weighted. The belayer has said he arrested the fall by grabbing the rope, receiving burns in the process.
I'm wondering what caused the belayer to grab the rope. What belay device was he using? Did he let go of the device and grab the rope because he thought he could shorten the fall by grabbing the rope before it came tight on the belay device? Or did the rope slip for twenty feet through the belay device? Did the rope ever engage the belay device, or test the anchor?
I wish both the climber and the belayer the best of luck and I hope they swiftly recover. You are both very lucky guys. Thanks if you can answer any of these questions, if not that's okay too.
(This post was edited by sethg on May 24, 2011, 5:44 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 25, 2011, 12:34 AM
Post #17 of 21
(14777 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
sethg wrote: Also, it would be great if the climber and/or the belayer could provide a little more information. I understand if they don't want to talk about it, but it would be useful to the larger community and possibly to them to talk about what happened. What they've said so far i find confusing. Putting what they've said in the blog post, here and on supertopo together, it sounds like the leader had climbed up about thirty feet from the belay, and had four pieces of pro in when he fell. The two top pieces were a nut and a cam placed in the same corner. All four pieces ripped in the fall. Apparently the gear anchor held, but it is unclear to me if it was ever weighted. The belayer has said he arrested the fall by grabbing the rope, receiving burns in the process. I'm wondering what caused the belayer to grab the rope.
What do you do with your brake hand when you're belaying?
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
sethg
May 25, 2011, 2:11 AM
Post #18 of 21
(14744 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2006
Posts: 134
|
Jay, this is what the belayer said on supertopo:
"I'm guessing about 20' of rope passed through my hands before I got the rope stopped. Burnt hands, but I'll take that!"
I took this to mean he was trying to stop the rope without a belay device. Then I decided that he must mean that 20 feet of rope slipped through the belay device before he could stop it. Then I decided I wasn't sure, which is why I asked.
Of course he would grab the rope. I meant to ask in what manner he grabbed it, sorry for the lack of clarity.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 25, 2011, 2:25 AM
Post #19 of 21
(14735 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
sethg wrote: Jay, this is what the belayer said on supertopo: "I'm guessing about 20' of rope passed through my hands before I got the rope stopped. Burnt hands, but I'll take that!" I took this to mean he was trying to stop the rope without a belay device. Then I decided that he must mean that 20 feet of rope slipped through the belay device before he could stop it. Then I decided I wasn't sure, which is why I asked. Of course he would grab the rope. I meant to ask in what manner he grabbed it, sorry for the lack of clarity.
He held a factor-2 fall. Whatever he did was right.
In a hard fall rope will slip through the belay device, and hence through the belayer's hands. That's why rgold and I are constantly saying that gloves should be mandatory for the belayer on mutlipitch climbs.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on May 25, 2011, 2:26 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
cliffhanger2040
May 30, 2011, 7:28 PM
Post #20 of 21
(14398 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 57
|
I was using a Black Diamond atc with the teeth on it. I was not wearing gloves (big mistake). I burned my left hand as I was trying to apply brake pressure. (don't remember if it was above the belay device or on the brake side, I use my right hand as a brake hand)
I'm not entirely sure about this sequence but here goes:
The rope was going through the anchors to my belay device on my harness and up to the lead climber.
When he fell below me, I was no longer able to apply downward pressure to the atc and rope to stop him.
I dropped to the ledge between the cliff face and a small uprising of a flake which redirected the rope up from my belay device and I was again able to stop the fall with downward pressure to the brake hand.
Because the atc was on the climber side of the anchors, it was never weighted. I would have had to pass all of the rope through the device and myself run up against the anchors.
Because of the weather conditions, SAR lowered one man to our location and attached my injured partner to him and lowered to the ground. Painful, but the only other option was to spend the night and wait out the storm if they were to bring the normal number of people and litter down to us.
I was then able to rappel down the cliff on the SAR rope.
SAR put him on a one wheeled litter and used eight men to carry him down the scree to the base of the mountain and up to the road.
We are still not sure why all of the gear came out. I have never seen the pitch he fell on, so I can only take others comments that it has excellent placements.
Let me stress, we both have realized that there was an extreme lack of required knowledge and several mistakes made. I know after going through this and looking back, it is now easy to spot several things that we did wrong. We just didn't realize how inexperienced we were and are glad we were able to walk away and learn from it.
Hope this answers any questions you guys have.
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
May 30, 2011, 8:17 PM
Post #21 of 21
(14379 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
Steve,
Thanks a lot for posting. It does explain why 20 feet went through the ATC.
Maybe others will chime in with how they set things up to deal with the direction of pull from a fall suddenly being opposite the expected direction assuming an ATC belay device (understanding that primary is the "Jesus nut").
Bill L
|
|
|
|
|
|
