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herites


Jun 3, 2011, 2:00 PM
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Holding your breath
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Hi!

I've recently developed a bad habit that I hold my breath during hard sequences, which arent really helping (to be more exact, i suck my bottom lip in) This is, apart from fucking up my breathing can be dangerous, so any advice how to train myself out of it?


sungam


Jun 3, 2011, 2:06 PM
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Re: [herites] Holding your breath [In reply to]
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Focus really hard on your breathing while warming up and at problems *just* below the point where you uncontrollably hold your breath. And sometimes while you're working a problem, focus more on the breathing then on the moves. You gotta make your body know that it's gotta breath! I also found that when people brought it to my attention the moment I started to do it (okay, I still do it sometimes, but I am getting better) would make me get my breathing in check and then it would usually be alright on that burn.


Learner


Jun 3, 2011, 2:22 PM
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Re: [herites] Holding your breath [In reply to]
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I am fairly new to climbing, and allowing myself to stay calm and breathe whenever possible is a habit I am constantly trying to establish. I have noticed improvement, and I think I'm pretty good at not holding my breath now.

What I believe helped me is to consciously remind myself, while I'm climbing, to allow movements of my gut to 'drive' the breathing rather than the compression and expansion of the chest. When you breathe, your chest should remain fairly still, while your gut should move out when you inhale and in when you exhale. The more I remind myself to do this while I climb, the more I do it automatically and no longer have to remind myself. That is, the healthy habit is reinforced. More and more through time, I breathe automatically and in a way that is conducive to my climbing...

To elaborate, why do this? If you try to control your breathing by moving your gut out when you exhale, then in when you inhale, you will allow your diaphragm to control the breath, which will automatically calm you down due to biological processes. The fight-or-flight ('alarm') response is disengaged, this then calms you down, allowing you to think and control yourself on the rock. This is exactly what you want while climbing, because of course climbing is a mental challenge to maintain control while in a 'stressful' situation. The point is, the less psychologically 'stressful' you can make the situation, the better your mind will work and the better you will perform. Consequently, breathing in this manner will improve your climbing.

Remind yourself to breathe in this manner while you climb to establish and reinforce the habit and you will do it more automatically over time. Your breathing, therefore, will work to promote a healthily functioning mind, promoting your climbing performance.

(This post was edited by Learner on Jun 3, 2011, 2:27 PM)


sungam


Jun 3, 2011, 2:34 PM
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You do yoga, don't you?


notapplicable


Jun 3, 2011, 3:31 PM
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When I know I am going to be climbing near my limit, I will breath loud enough that I can hear it so I will notice when/if I stop. So far it has worked well for me.


Learner


Jun 3, 2011, 3:37 PM
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sungam wrote:
You do yoga, don't you?

I don't yet, personally. I realize it's very popular among climbers, but I wonder if the benefits are illusory or actual...

This is a debate in itself, but how beneficial is yoga to one's climbing?

Did any of you notice a change in your breathing during climbing, after you started yoga?


sungam


Jun 3, 2011, 4:12 PM
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I don't do much yoga, just some tossed in with my stretches once in a while, or when I've been at a desk too long and need to loosen up, but the"breath with your stomach" is a pretty strong message from the yoga crowd.


Kstenson


Jun 3, 2011, 7:25 PM
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Before I got into climbing I used to be into lifting weights and the most useful tip I ever got was to breath out aggressively on each rep. It definitely increases your focus and power.

I've found that it applies really well to climbing as well on hard moves, and by virtue of having breathed out hard you automatically take a breath in right afterwards.


(This post was edited by Kstenson on Jun 3, 2011, 7:41 PM)


Vegasclimber10


Jun 4, 2011, 2:59 AM
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Thanks for posting this up!

I have been having issues with this as well. I tend to forget about my breathing, and then I spend the next several minutes gasping. It really screws up my flow, and I have been looking for ways to get this serious issue under control - every time it happens it blows the pitch for me.

Thanks for the ideas!


ceebo


Jun 4, 2011, 7:22 AM
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I noticed that briefly pausing breathing during a maximum ability move gives me a little extra power, or focus.. maybe stability in the core muscles? i don't know, is that observation wrong?.

I typically find myself exhaling prior to attempting such a move, a pause in breath as I'm making the move then once contact is made and peak effort of the muscles has settled i resume normal breathing.


notapplicable


Jun 4, 2011, 9:06 AM
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ceebo wrote:
I noticed that briefly pausing breathing during a maximum ability move gives me a little extra power, or focus.. maybe stability in the core muscles? i don't know, is that observation wrong?.

I typically find myself exhaling prior to attempting such a move, a pause in breath as I'm making the move then once contact is made and peak effort of the muscles has settled i resume normal breathing.

I think you are right and I also think doing so isn't really problematic because you aren't so much holding your breath, as you are momentarily pausing. I have the biggest problem when it's not just one move but more of a power endurance route with sections of sustained climbing.

It's one thing to not breath while your throw for a hold (we all probably do that) but it's another if you either restrict your breathing, or don't breath at all, while you negotiate a 5-6 move crux, which is what I tend to do.


ceebo


Jun 4, 2011, 12:04 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I noticed that briefly pausing breathing during a maximum ability move gives me a little extra power, or focus.. maybe stability in the core muscles? i don't know, is that observation wrong?.

I typically find myself exhaling prior to attempting such a move, a pause in breath as I'm making the move then once contact is made and peak effort of the muscles has settled i resume normal breathing.

I think you are right and I also think doing so isn't really problematic because you aren't so much holding your breath, as you are momentarily pausing. I have the biggest problem when it's not just one move but more of a power endurance route with sections of sustained climbing.

It's one thing to not breath while your throw for a hold (we all probably do that) but it's another if you either restrict your breathing, or don't breath at all, while you negotiate a 5-6 move crux, which is what I tend to do.

The only time i recall myself having to make an extremely conscious effort to maintain steady breathing is during L sit dead hangs/lock off's, its very sustained physical effort. I guess that relates somewhat into body tension moves. Perhaps some core workouts could help in breathing better?.


Vegasclimber10


Jun 4, 2011, 1:30 PM
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NA's post pretty much sums it up for me.

I think, Ceebo, that controlling your breathing by pausing at the right moment is probably beneficial - they teach similar techniques in martial arts and shooting.

Like NA, my issue is going through multiple moves without breathing, and then all bets are off.


ceebo


Jun 4, 2011, 1:44 PM
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Vegasclimber10 wrote:
NA's post pretty much sums it up for me.

I think, Ceebo, that controlling your breathing by pausing at the right moment is probably beneficial - they teach similar techniques in martial arts and shooting.

Like NA, my issue is going through multiple moves without breathing, and then all bets are off.

Well fair enough, sorry i can't give much first hand experience on that.

You may be interested to know though, for many centuries (probably still do) people use to dive for clams and so. They could stay under water for durations as long as 6-10 min if i recall. The technique they used was deep breathes before hand.. god knows for how long they done that. I guess if a route should take 5 min to climb you could try to high load with oxygen for 5 min before an attempt and at least keep up deep breathing until the difficult section.

That was a complete pot shot i know.. i accept any flame for that ;p.


sungam


Jun 4, 2011, 1:54 PM
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ceebo wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
NA's post pretty much sums it up for me.

I think, Ceebo, that controlling your breathing by pausing at the right moment is probably beneficial - they teach similar techniques in martial arts and shooting.

Like NA, my issue is going through multiple moves without breathing, and then all bets are off.

Well fair enough, sorry i can't give much first hand experience on that.

You may be interested to know though, for many centuries (probably still do) people use to dive for clams and so. They could stay under water for durations as long as 6-10 min if i recall. The technique they used was deep breathes before hand.. god knows for how long they done that. I guess if a route should take 5 min to climb you could try to high load with oxygen for 5 min before an attempt and at least keep up deep breathing until the difficult section.

That was a complete pot shot i know.. i accept any flame for that ;p.
Chances are that the level of exertion making at-your-limit moves is considerably higher then diving for clams. Try holding your breath sitting on the sofa. Time it. Now repeat but this time while doing frenchies in L-form. I'm pretty sure I know which one will be longer.


ceebo


Jun 4, 2011, 2:09 PM
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sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
NA's post pretty much sums it up for me.

I think, Ceebo, that controlling your breathing by pausing at the right moment is probably beneficial - they teach similar techniques in martial arts and shooting.

Like NA, my issue is going through multiple moves without breathing, and then all bets are off.

Well fair enough, sorry i can't give much first hand experience on that.

You may be interested to know though, for many centuries (probably still do) people use to dive for clams and so. They could stay under water for durations as long as 6-10 min if i recall. The technique they used was deep breathes before hand.. god knows for how long they done that. I guess if a route should take 5 min to climb you could try to high load with oxygen for 5 min before an attempt and at least keep up deep breathing until the difficult section.

That was a complete pot shot i know.. i accept any flame for that ;p.
Chances are that the level of exertion making at-your-limit moves is considerably higher then diving for clams. Try holding your breath sitting on the sofa. Time it. Now repeat but this time while doing frenchies in L-form. I'm pretty sure I know which one will be longer.

Oh, i was not aware that using every major muscle group swimming distances of around 10-20M before scavenging on the sea floor for aprox 3 min against buoyancy then swimming a bag load to the surface was comparable to sitting on a sofa. But then again, i have never dived for clams.

Interestingly though, not everybody floats.


sungam


Jun 4, 2011, 2:16 PM
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ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
NA's post pretty much sums it up for me.

I think, Ceebo, that controlling your breathing by pausing at the right moment is probably beneficial - they teach similar techniques in martial arts and shooting.

Like NA, my issue is going through multiple moves without breathing, and then all bets are off.

Well fair enough, sorry i can't give much first hand experience on that.

You may be interested to know though, for many centuries (probably still do) people use to dive for clams and so. They could stay under water for durations as long as 6-10 min if i recall. The technique they used was deep breathes before hand.. god knows for how long they done that. I guess if a route should take 5 min to climb you could try to high load with oxygen for 5 min before an attempt and at least keep up deep breathing until the difficult section.

That was a complete pot shot i know.. i accept any flame for that ;p.
Chances are that the level of exertion making at-your-limit moves is considerably higher then diving for clams. Try holding your breath sitting on the sofa. Time it. Now repeat but this time while doing frenchies in L-form. I'm pretty sure I know which one will be longer.

Oh, i was not aware that using every major muscle group swimming distances of around 10-20M before scavenging on the sea floor for aprox 3 min against buoyancy then swimming a bag load to the surface was comparable to sitting on a sofa. But then again, i have never dived for clams.

Interestingly though, not everybody floats.
Yeah, I was kinda assuming that if you were diving for clams you wouldn't be carrying much body fat for your weight. And you are seriously fucking stupid if you think I said it was like sitting on a sofa. It was clearly (well, clear to anyone that has a middle-school level of reading comprehension) stating the fact that higher intensity uses more oxygen, and thus requires heavier/more frequent breathing.


ceebo


Jun 4, 2011, 4:27 PM
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sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
NA's post pretty much sums it up for me.

I think, Ceebo, that controlling your breathing by pausing at the right moment is probably beneficial - they teach similar techniques in martial arts and shooting.

Like NA, my issue is going through multiple moves without breathing, and then all bets are off.

Well fair enough, sorry i can't give much first hand experience on that.

You may be interested to know though, for many centuries (probably still do) people use to dive for clams and so. They could stay under water for durations as long as 6-10 min if i recall. The technique they used was deep breathes before hand.. god knows for how long they done that. I guess if a route should take 5 min to climb you could try to high load with oxygen for 5 min before an attempt and at least keep up deep breathing until the difficult section.

That was a complete pot shot i know.. i accept any flame for that ;p.
Chances are that the level of exertion making at-your-limit moves is considerably higher then diving for clams. Try holding your breath sitting on the sofa. Time it. Now repeat but this time while doing frenchies in L-form. I'm pretty sure I know which one will be longer.

Oh, i was not aware that using every major muscle group swimming distances of around 10-20M before scavenging on the sea floor for aprox 3 min against buoyancy then swimming a bag load to the surface was comparable to sitting on a sofa. But then again, i have never dived for clams.

Interestingly though, not everybody floats.
Yeah, I was kinda assuming that if you were diving for clams you wouldn't be carrying much body fat for your weight. And you are seriously fucking stupid if you think I said it was like sitting on a sofa. It was clearly (well, clear to anyone that has a middle-school level of reading comprehension) stating the fact that higher intensity uses more oxygen, and thus requires heavier/more frequent breathing.

No, you stated you did not agree, then gave a reflective comparison to explain why. Your comparison was not even remotely connected though. Once you understood that mistake you denied trying to compare physical activity (swimming) to minimal activity (doing nothing).. if that was not intended, then what point was their in using such a comparison?. At that point you were stating nothing but a obvious yet irelivent fact. Like saying.. for example.. running will tire you out more than doing nothing.

I gave a example of people who use a breathing technique to increase their time holding breath while undergoing physical activity. That rather significant improvement is simply a fact. If it works under water.. it will work on a wall just before climbing a hard sequence. Funnily enough, it will also enable the poor guy doing L sits to achieve greater duration.

Unless ofc.. a steam train with 1 bag of coal can get further than a steam train with 5?. It is as clear as that, but i may have to confuse it a little by asking if you think the first train gets further.. because its lighter?. Did not quite understand why you decided to bring weight into the picture. Was also irelivent to the fact of duration improvement to the spacific task of what a person is doing (regardless of weight) while holding breath.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 4, 2011, 4:33 PM)


Vegasclimber10


Jun 4, 2011, 4:50 PM
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Can we please not spiral this useful thread into yet another bickering match guys? Seriously, it's not worth it.

Cmon, lets forget it and stay on topic.


sungam


Jun 4, 2011, 5:00 PM
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Vegasclimber10 wrote:
Can we please not spiral this useful thread into yet another bickering match guys? Seriously, it's not worth it.

Cmon, lets forget it and stay on topic.
One more and it's done Smile


sungam


Jun 4, 2011, 5:01 PM
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Let me try to make this nice and simple for you Smile

When I said "Chances are that the level of exertion making at-your-limit moves is considerably higher then diving for clams." It's because... the chances are that the level of exertion making at-your-limit moves is considerably higher then diving for clams.Cool

Make sense? I hope that was clear enough for you.Smile

Now, this is the part where reading comprehension comes in! Shocked

I didn't actually say the sentence "The higher the level of exertion, the shorter the period you can hold your breath for"!!!!Unimpressed

Instead I gave an example of an experiment you could conduct in the comfort of your very own home! By doing that experiment, or just by thinking about it, you could come to that conclusion on your own! Wink

Now I know this is some high-level stuff- I mean like full-on high-school English - but I hope you can now understand, in hind site, having had it laid out for you in this "Heather Has Two Mommies" level breakdown, what I meant in my post.Smile

In fact, let's take another look at that second part! What makes it even better then just asserting "The higher the level of exertion, the shorter the period you can hold your breath for", it let's you check that result experimentally!Cool

And yes, I absolutely do think that hard bouldering, or hard crux sequences on steep ground, are much more physically intense then diving for clams. I also think that climbers train their lung capacity significantly less then clam divers do, and even if they WERE too buoyant, they would probably just wear a weight belt to get to neutral buoyancy.Tongue

As for you saying "Did not quite understand why you decided to bring weight into the picture." Well, when I said the word "weight" it was in the sentence "Yeah, I was kinda assuming that if you were diving for clams you wouldn't be carrying much body fat for your weight."

Now the important part of this sentence, and the word "weight" being used, is this part of the sentence: "body fat for your weight.". Now I could have said "you would have a low % body fat", but I didn't. Instead I worded it differently. Sometimes people do this, it's what makes some people (like yourself) very bad writers, and some people (like Sir Terry Pratchett) excellent writers.Smile

The reason the phrase "for your weight" had to be tagged on at the end is because a very large person may have a low % body fat, but still have a higher quantity of body fat then a very small person who has a slightly higher % body fat. Smile

Now, the % body fat is important in this case as it is the density of the individual that determines whether or not their buoyancy in water is greater then their weight. This, of course, is what determines if they float!Cool


Anyway, I hope this made sense for you! Good attempt at making me back-peddle, though!SmileBeer


sungam


Jun 4, 2011, 5:03 PM
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And with that, I am going to have to do something that I held off doing for a while (mostly because ceebo actually had a little batch of worthy posts in there at one point).


*PLONK*




spikeddem


Jun 4, 2011, 5:07 PM
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LOL


Vegasclimber10


Jun 4, 2011, 5:19 PM
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sungam wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
Can we please not spiral this useful thread into yet another bickering match guys? Seriously, it's not worth it.

Cmon, lets forget it and stay on topic.
One more and it's done Smile


The problem is - you have one more, then he has one more then its two more, etc etc lmao!!

I get it though. But there was some good stuff here, lets try and get some more input from other people maybe.


ceebo


Jun 4, 2011, 7:15 PM
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sungam wrote:
Let me try to make this nice and simple for you Smile

When I said "Chances are that the level of exertion making at-your-limit moves is considerably higher then diving for clams." It's because... the chances are that the level of exertion making at-your-limit moves is considerably higher then diving for clams.Cool

Make sense? I hope that was clear enough for you.Smile

Now, this is the part where reading comprehension comes in! Shocked

I didn't actually say the sentence "The higher the level of exertion, the shorter the period you can hold your breath for"!!!!Unimpressed

Instead I gave an example of an experiment you could conduct in the comfort of your very own home! By doing that experiment, or just by thinking about it, you could come to that conclusion on your own! Wink

Now I know this is some high-level stuff- I mean like full-on high-school English - but I hope you can now understand, in hind site, having had it laid out for you in this "Heather Has Two Mommies" level breakdown, what I meant in my post.Smile

In fact, let's take another look at that second part! What makes it even better then just asserting "The higher the level of exertion, the shorter the period you can hold your breath for", it let's you check that result experimentally!Cool

And yes, I absolutely do think that hard bouldering, or hard crux sequences on steep ground, are much more physically intense then diving for clams. I also think that climbers train their lung capacity significantly less then clam divers do, and even if they WERE too buoyant, they would probably just wear a weight belt to get to neutral buoyancy.Tongue

As for you saying "Did not quite understand why you decided to bring weight into the picture." Well, when I said the word "weight" it was in the sentence "Yeah, I was kinda assuming that if you were diving for clams you wouldn't be carrying much body fat for your weight."

Now the important part of this sentence, and the word "weight" being used, is this part of the sentence: "body fat for your weight.". Now I could have said "you would have a low % body fat", but I didn't. Instead I worded it differently. Sometimes people do this, it's what makes some people (like yourself) very bad writers, and some people (like Sir Terry Pratchett) excellent writers.Smile

The reason the phrase "for your weight" had to be tagged on at the end is because a very large person may have a low % body fat, but still have a higher quantity of body fat then a very small person who has a slightly higher % body fat. Smile

Now, the % body fat is important in this case as it is the density of the individual that determines whether or not their buoyancy in water is greater then their weight. This, of course, is what determines if they float!Cool


Anyway, I hope this made sense for you! Good attempt at making me back-peddle, though!SmileBeer

Derail all you want with personal attack but the logical answer is that regardless of how hard the activity is.. having greater oxygen count in the blood and volume in the lungs prior to an abrupt stop in breathing will get you further than having less. That may get 1 person ''this far'' into a crux sequence and it may get another person ''that far'' but in either case they are both going to get further than they originally would have. Does the same principle scaled up not apply to loading carbs? do you start a month in hand or the day before the big climb?. Even bears have a more extreme but relivent comparison to witch they found a reliable solution.

And i like how you attempt to end the debate with such confidence in the second to last post hanging me out to dry. Shit will never roll up hill m8, but you keep throwing it.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 4, 2011, 7:17 PM)


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