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Learner


Jun 9, 2011, 7:39 PM
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Glycogen Stores: To Deplete or Not?
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I have read that you should not deplete your glycogen stores completely in a climbing session. However, if an increase in muscular (power) endurance is a priority, and as long as you follow the session with good food and rest, I don't understand why. It seems to me that depleting your glycogen stores during a climbing session would be the stimulus for and increase in muscular endurance. This is a priority of mine, therefore it seems it should be a good training strategy.

If you deplete your glycogen stores during your climbing session, it doesn't have to mean that you have to practice bad technique in the process. Neither does it have to mean that you're putting yourself at high risk for injury. My approach in gym training is to start with routes I can complete easily as a sort of warm-up, work up to more difficult ones until I peak at the most difficult routes I want to try to send until I'm clearly depleted, then finally resort back to climbing the easy routes again whose sequences I have well established until I'm physically drained. So, I'd end with routes involving technique I don't have to put much effort into. I have those engrams so well established that I will still practice good technique on them, and I simultaneously continue to challenge myself to focus on the right things (center of gravity in relation to base of support, driving up with the legs while maintaining optimum posture for the moves, etc...).

By "depleted" above I mean the point at which most people seem to say they've got nothing left. For me, it's when I've reached muscular failure to complete a move that I know I can do a number of times. At this point, a clear decrease in overall physical performance is usually apparent from that point on, despite a 10 minute recovery break between pitches. So, if I climb a hard route, rest for 10 minutes, then try to climb another, and it is apparent to me that my physical machine is not performing the way it was earlier, despite my 100% mental and physical effort, I would consider myself "depleted." I don't reach this conclusion simply because I've fallen; the term would only apply, for example, if I've fallen a number of times on a move despite doing everything I've got and I would have been capable of completing the move without a problem earlier the same day.

I'm sure we all have our own opinions on what "depleted" means to us, and our muscle glycogen is not ever entirely depleted. To most of us, it will probably mean the point at which your muscular self feels like "I'm done." In that case, this question would be "Should you keep pushing past that point?" Regardless, I would like to know your opinions on...

If an increase in power endurance is a priority, is it a good idea to deplete muscle glycogen stores as much as possible during an indoor climbing session?
Why or why not?



(This post was edited by Learner on Jun 14, 2011, 1:03 PM)


johnwesely


Jun 9, 2011, 7:59 PM
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Re: [Learner] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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AFAIK depleting glycogen stores is going to lengthen your recovery time significantly, reducing your overall volume of training.


Grizvok


Jun 9, 2011, 8:36 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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You post some of the dumbest shit ever. Like seriously. I just got dumber from reading that. In no way are you correct. In fact look up how much exercise it takes to be TRULY glycogen depleted because I'll bet you aren't even close.


(This post was edited by Grizvok on Jun 9, 2011, 9:07 PM)


kiwiprincess


Jun 9, 2011, 8:56 PM
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Re: [Learner] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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If you deplete the Glycogen your body canabalises proteins (muscle) for the energy. If you are full on for over an hour you need some carbs to top up Glycogen, That's why runners use those gel things. A few snacks and keeping Hydrated during your session should sort you out.
Fatigue and Glycogen depletion aren't the same thing neccesarily.
I don't use it climbing but the gels make a noticable difference in recovery when running longer distances.


Learner


Jun 9, 2011, 9:28 PM
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Re: [Grizvok] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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Grizvok wrote:
You post some of the dumbest shit ever. Like seriously. I just got dumber from reading that. In no way are you correct. In fact look up how much exercise it takes to be TRULY glycogen depleted because I'll bet you aren't even close.

CrazyOf course your glycogen is never literally depleted. Perhaps you didn't catch this part of my original post:

"I'm sure we all have our own opinions on what "depleted" means to us, and our muscle glycogen is not ever entirely depleted."

I'm implying that my sources (ex., the author of book "9 Out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes") also realize that you don't ever truly deplete your glycogen stores.

BTW, it's not a dumb question at all. There are very mixed opinions on it, and systems of training (ex., Muscle Logic) are based on it. Many people credit this type of training (draining yourself completely) for their increases in power endurance.

If you have a problem with anything else I posted, you don't have the knowledge to understand its relevance. For example, many people claim that if you deplete your power endurance too much, you'll use bad technique, which makes you susceptible to injury. I was claiming it's not dangerous if, from that point on, you climb routes with sequences involving engrams you've already got well established. Maybe you don't know what engram means. Maybe a stiff prick like you can't tie together two pieces of information.

Other than that, I don't appreciate your attitude, your reply was counterproductive and it doesn't belong in this thread.


Grizvok


Jun 9, 2011, 10:12 PM
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Re: [Learner] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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Learner wrote:
Grizvok wrote:
You post some of the dumbest shit ever. Like seriously. I just got dumber from reading that. In no way are you correct. In fact look up how much exercise it takes to be TRULY glycogen depleted because I'll bet you aren't even close.

CrazyOf course your glycogen is never literally depleted. Perhaps you didn't catch this part of my original post:

"I'm sure we all have our own opinions on what "depleted" means to us, and our muscle glycogen is not ever entirely depleted."

I'm implying that my sources (ex., the author of book "9 Out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes") also realize that you don't ever truly deplete your glycogen stores.

BTW, it's not a dumb question at all. There are very mixed opinions on it, and systems of training (ex., Muscle Logic) are based on it. Many people credit this type of training (draining yourself completely) for their increases in power endurance.

If you have a problem with anything else I posted, you don't have the knowledge to understand its relevance. For example, many people claim that if you deplete your power endurance too much, you'll use bad technique, which makes you susceptible to injury. I was claiming it's not dangerous if, from that point on, you climb routes with sequences involving engrams you've already got well established. Maybe you don't know what engram means. Maybe a stiff prick like you can't tie together two pieces of information.

Other than that, I don't appreciate your attitude, your reply was counterproductive and it doesn't belong in this thread.

I've done my research on glycogen depletion and which athletes should even begin to even use the term when it comes to training and how to avoid it and/or use it as a method of increasing any type of fitness.

Climbing isn't that sport. And I mean NOT EVEN CLOSE to the extreme that your forearms will be absolutely fucking fried hours and hours and hours before getting anywhere close to glycogen depletion especially when climbing something that you "need to have the engrams down" which means a tougher climb but one you know the balance of. Look up how many calories you are burning climbing, it isn't that much at all.

And the term is anaerobic endurance.

You should probably even come up with a half-assed definition of "depleted" instead of none at all because in reality you are just feeling tired from being pumped.

Climb a 5.4 for 5 hours straight and let us know!


Learner


Jun 9, 2011, 11:15 PM
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Re: [Grizvok] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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Grizvok wrote:
Learner wrote:
Grizvok wrote:
You post some of the dumbest shit ever. Like seriously. I just got dumber from reading that. In no way are you correct. In fact look up how much exercise it takes to be TRULY glycogen depleted because I'll bet you aren't even close.

CrazyOf course your glycogen is never literally depleted. Perhaps you didn't catch this part of my original post:

"I'm sure we all have our own opinions on what "depleted" means to us, and our muscle glycogen is not ever entirely depleted."

I'm implying that my sources (ex., the author of book "9 Out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes") also realize that you don't ever truly deplete your glycogen stores.

BTW, it's not a dumb question at all. There are very mixed opinions on it, and systems of training (ex., Muscle Logic) are based on it. Many people credit this type of training (draining yourself completely) for their increases in power endurance.

If you have a problem with anything else I posted, you don't have the knowledge to understand its relevance. For example, many people claim that if you deplete your power endurance too much, you'll use bad technique, which makes you susceptible to injury. I was claiming it's not dangerous if, from that point on, you climb routes with sequences involving engrams you've already got well established. Maybe you don't know what engram means. Maybe a stiff prick like you can't tie together two pieces of information.

Other than that, I don't appreciate your attitude, your reply was counterproductive and it doesn't belong in this thread.

I've done my research on glycogen depletion and which athletes should even begin to even use the term when it comes to training and how to avoid it and/or use it as a method of increasing any type of fitness.

Climbing isn't that sport. And I mean NOT EVEN CLOSE to the extreme that your forearms will be absolutely fucking fried hours and hours and hours before getting anywhere close to glycogen depletion especially when climbing something that you "need to have the engrams down" which means a tougher climb but one you know the balance of. Look up how many calories you are burning climbing, it isn't that much at all.

And the term is anaerobic endurance.

You should probably even come up with a half-assed definition of "depleted" instead of none at all because in reality you are just feeling tired from being pumped.

Climb a 5.4 for 5 hours straight and let us know!
Good post. I actually agree with you, and that's exactly why I posted this thread. However, there are too many assumptions of me underlying your initial reply, and it was entirely uncalled for.

Why not just tell me this in your first reply instead of attacking me personally? All I did is read in 2 different climbing books now that you shouldn't deplete your glycogen stores. This didn't seem like it made sense, for one because I did realize that it's not realistic to do so in a climbing session. Two, in the process of stimulating an increase in energy stores, you'll have to use up (partially "deplete") some glycogen stores.

When I read the advice not to "deplete" glycogen stores, I thought that it was strange advice. I have to assume that these authors actually mean "don't deplete them too much." In other words, I assume they mean partial depletion. They're not actually implying that you ever come close to depleting glycogen stores 100% while climbing, just some percentage, and they're saying leave a sufficient amount (whatever that's supposed to be). I'm questioning the sources that give this advice--that's why this thread was posted. Get it?

As for the term, power endurance is just an informal term for anaerobic endurance. Of course I'm familiar with both--pick your favorite. From the dictionary in The Self-Coached Climber, page 218:

power endurance: The common name climbers use for anaerobic endurance.


(This post was edited by Learner on Jun 10, 2011, 12:14 AM)


jt512


Jun 10, 2011, 1:31 AM
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Re: [Learner] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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Learner, you're a beginner, right? So you have no idea how to even climb yet, right? Learn the basics of climbing movement first. Then once you've actually learned to climb with a modicum of efficiency you can start to worry about how to spare your "glycogen reserves."

At this point in your climbing career you should be sleeping, eating, and breathing The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay


patrickh


Jun 10, 2011, 4:07 AM
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Re: [jt512] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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Wow, I've never read a thread full of quite so much misinformation in my life.

Glycogen depletion will not necessarily increase recovery time.

A heavy pump and/or burn is not indicative of glycogen depletion. It is indicative of lactic acid and other metabolite buildup within a given muscle.

Glycogen depletion can occur rather quickly if somewhat fasted before activity. For example, doing 4-5 sets of high rep bicep curls will likely deplete glycogen stores of the bicep muscles.

Once Glycogen stores are depleted, you will not necessarily burn muscle/proteins. The process is called glyconeogenesis (proteins are converted to glucose). In all likelyhood, your body will begin using oxidative pathways to burn fat. In fact, a given muscle will not burn fat if it still has glucose for fuel. So, glycogen stores must be depleted under normal circumstances for said muscle to burn fat.


(This post was edited by patrickh on Jun 10, 2011, 4:09 AM)


rtwilli4


Jun 10, 2011, 4:22 AM
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Re: [jt512] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Learner, you're a beginner, right? So you have no idea how to even climb yet, right? Learn the basics of climbing movement first. Then once you've actually learned to climb with a modicum of efficiency you can start to worry about how to spare your "glycogen reserves."

At this point in your climbing career you should be sleeping, eating, and breathing The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

Can we just make this the end of the thread? Please!?


ceebo


Jun 10, 2011, 4:31 AM
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Re: [rtwilli4] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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rtwilli4 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Learner, you're a beginner, right? So you have no idea how to even climb yet, right? Learn the basics of climbing movement first. Then once you've actually learned to climb with a modicum of efficiency you can start to worry about how to spare your "glycogen reserves."

At this point in your climbing career you should be sleeping, eating, and breathing The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

Can we just make this the end of the thread? Please!?

It is interesting, so why?.


johnwesely


Jun 10, 2011, 6:30 AM
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Re: [Grizvok] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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Grizvok wrote:
You post some of the dumbest shit ever. Like seriously.

I rest my case.


altelis


Jun 10, 2011, 6:33 AM
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Re: [kiwiprincess] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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kiwiprincess wrote:
If you deplete the Glycogen your body canabalises proteins (muscle) for the energy. If you are full on for over an hour you need some carbs to top up Glycogen, That's why runners use those gel things. A few snacks and keeping Hydrated during your session should sort you out.
Fatigue and Glycogen depletion aren't the same thing neccesarily.
I don't use it climbing but the gels make a noticable difference in recovery when running longer distances.

There are certainly others with much more expertise in this, but my understanding is that while there will be some protein used as a source for gluconeogenesis, you're body starts going after your fat stores to a much greater degree before it really starts going after muscle. After all, that's primarily what the fat stores are there for...


saint_john


Jun 10, 2011, 9:49 AM
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Re: [jt512] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Learner, you're a beginner, right? So you have no idea how to even climb yet, right? Learn the basics of climbing movement first. Then once you've actually learned to climb with a modicum of efficiency you can start to worry about how to spare your "glycogen reserves."

At this point in your climbing career you should be sleeping, eating, and breathing The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

Jay is right. You need to focus on technique. don't even worry about strength gains. you'll be much better off if you do so.


Learner


Jun 10, 2011, 10:09 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Learner, you're a beginner, right? So you have no idea how to even climb yet, right? Learn the basics of climbing movement first. Then once you've actually learned to climb with a modicum of efficiency you can start to worry about how to spare your "glycogen reserves."

At this point in your climbing career you should be sleeping, eating, and breathing The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

Thanks for the advice. That's basically what I've been doing, that book is like my bible right now. I've also got a number of others, including Training for Climbing, Performance Rock Climbing, 9 Out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes, and a few others. I've been studying them pretty closely. It is apparent that for learning technique The Self-Coached Climber is the most important.

Yes, I've only been climbing for 3 months, but I wouldn't say I have "no idea" how to climb. I am training to know how to, and because I have been utilizing my books and putting their information to practice, I do have a better idea of what I should be focused on than someone who's just been going to the gym to climb for fun. I'm new to climbing, but I've been engrossed in it, so I've learned a lot. Regardless, I fully realize that what I've learned is a speck of dust to the world of things I will learn and need to learn.

About the glycogen reserves, a typical week for me has been to climb 5-6 days in a row for 4 hours a day. Given 2 weeks I took off, this has been my climbing frequency and volume for the last 3 months. So, when I read that about glycogen reserves, and since optimising my rate of progress is important to me, I am willing to consider anything that could do that for me. Therefore, I wondered if there's anything to the glycogen advice and if I'd improve faster by adding another rest day. I do not feel like I need another rest day, I don't want it, and I do believe I notice improvements everyday with my current schedule. (better body control, and fluidity of movement, being able to hold onto things I couldn't before, having an easier time holding onto things, incorporating better techniques for particular sequences, etc...)

I was just wondering if there was any truth to this idea, and if it should be a concern. Apparently most others, like myself, do not think it should be a concern.


Learner


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Re: [ceebo] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
rtwilli4 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Learner, you're a beginner, right? So you have no idea how to even climb yet, right? Learn the basics of climbing movement first. Then once you've actually learned to climb with a modicum of efficiency you can start to worry about how to spare your "glycogen reserves."

At this point in your climbing career you should be sleeping, eating, and breathing The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

Can we just make this the end of the thread? Please!?

It is interesting, so why?.

Thanks, and I agree. In this thread alone we've got a lot of mixed opinions on the topic. It is apparent that some people here think it is ludicrous to even ask if this should be a concern. (I even got attacked for it.) Still, others think it is not very difficult to deplete muscle glycogen in particular areas and that if you do so it can increase your required recovery time. If this were true, it should be a real concern for someone who climbs a number of days in a row yet wants to optimize their rate of progress.


jt512


Jun 10, 2011, 10:54 AM
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Re: [patrickh] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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patrickh wrote:
Wow, I've never read a thread full of quite so much misinformation in my life.

That's pretty funny, since, with the rest of your post, you at least double the misinformation.

In reply to:
Glycogen depletion will not necessarily increase recovery time.

Um, yeah right.

In reply to:
A heavy pump and/or burn is not indicative of glycogen depletion.

Savor that sentence, folks. It's the only accurate one in the post.

In reply to:
It is indicative of lactic acid and other metabolite buildup within a given muscle.

Lactate does not cause muscle fatigue. That's been shown definitively in controlled experiments.

In reply to:
Glycogen depletion can occur rather quickly if somewhat fasted before activity. For example, doing 4-5 sets of high rep bicep curls will likely deplete glycogen stores of the bicep muscles.

For 45 sets of curls? I'm skeptical, but I'm open to seeing a respectable source for that. Intramuscular glycogen, which would be the main source of glucose for 45 sets of biceps curls, is not burned during fasting. Liver glycogen is depleted after a fast, but I wouldn't think that a few sets of curls would be sufficient to mobilize liver glycogen.

In reply to:
Once Glycogen stores are depleted, you will not necessarily burn muscle/proteins.

If you're doing anaerobic exercise in a fasted state you sure will.

In reply to:
The process is called glyconeogenesis (proteins are converted to glucose).

If you're going to throw out a technical term for no good reason, at least get it right. The metabolic process of producing glucose from non-carbohydrate precursors is gluconeogenesis.

In reply to:
In all likelyhood, your body will begin using oxidative pathways to burn fat.

If you're doing anaerobic exercise, then the "likelyhood" of that is zero, since it is impossible to fuel anaerobic exercise via aerobic pathways.

In reply to:
In fact, a given muscle will not burn fat if it still has glucose for fuel.

That is (a) false and (b) irrelevant to the subject.

In reply to:
So, glycogen stores must be depleted under normal circumstances for said muscle to burn fat.

Ditto.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 10, 2011, 11:15 AM)


patrickh


Jun 10, 2011, 10:58 AM
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Re: [altelis] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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altelis wrote:
There are certainly others with much more expertise in this, but my understanding is that while there will be some protein used as a source for gluconeogenesis, you're body starts going after your fat stores to a much greater degree before it really starts going after muscle. After all, that's primarily what the fat stores are there for...

You're absolutely correct.

Our body actually has a fairly limited supply store for CHO. As seen by the contestants of the Biggest Loser, our FA storage is nearly limitless. If we don't burn fat when our glycogen stores are empty, we'd never be able to lose all that fat. Again, the Biggest Loser contestants are a testament to that.


jt512


Jun 10, 2011, 11:14 AM
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altelis wrote:
kiwiprincess wrote:
If you deplete the Glycogen your body canabalises proteins (muscle) for the energy. If you are full on for over an hour you need some carbs to top up Glycogen, That's why runners use those gel things. A few snacks and keeping Hydrated during your session should sort you out.
Fatigue and Glycogen depletion aren't the same thing neccesarily.
I don't use it climbing but the gels make a noticable difference in recovery when running longer distances.

There are certainly others with much more expertise in this, but my understanding is that while there will be some protein used as a source for gluconeogenesis, you're body starts going after your fat stores to a much greater degree before it really starts going after muscle. After all, that's primarily what the fat stores are there for...

Your body can't use fat to (fully) fuel anaerobic exercise, so if your exercise intensity is above the so-called anaerobic threshold, as it would be in all but the easiest climbing, then glucose is needed. Normally, most of this will come from the liver's store of glycogen; however, as those stores are depleted, gluconeogenisis will become the main source of glucose.

Jay


altelis


Jun 10, 2011, 11:15 AM
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right...totally forgot about the oxygen...


ceebo


Jun 10, 2011, 11:40 AM
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And how long would it typically take to replenish some/all gluco?. In other words are all these drinks and so just a con or do they actually actively help you maintain workload?.


patrickh


Jun 10, 2011, 11:43 AM
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jt512 wrote:
That's pretty funny, since, with the rest of your post, you at least double the misinformation.

Why so hostile?

In reply to:
Um, yeah right.

Glycogen can be replinished far more quickly than most tissues can be repaired. I was spot on.

In reply to:
Lactate does not cause muscle fatigue. That's been shown definitively in controlled experiments.

I did not say that lactate was responsible for muscle fatigue. However, metabolite buildup can contribute to fatigue. It directly interferes with the creatine phosphate cycle if I remember correctly.

In reply to:
For 45 sets of curls? I'm skeptical, but I'm open to seeing a respectable source for that. Intramuscular glycogen, which would be the main source of glucose for 45 sets of biceps curls, is not burned during fasting. Liver glycogen is depleted after a fast, but I wouldn't think that a few sets of curls would be sufficient to mobilize liver glycogen.

It's pretty easy if the reps are high. Muscle glycogen will be used before liver glycogen for a given muscle being worked.

In reply to:
If you're doing anaerobic exercise in a fasted state you sure will.

It depends on the individuals level of fitness, but generally you are correct. Heavy aenorobic exercise without sufficient breaks will depend on more than oxidative processes alone.

In reply to:
If you're going to throw out a technical term for no good reason, at least get it right. The metabolic process of producing glucose from non-carbohydrate precursors is gluconeogenesis.

So, I made a typo. No need to get so bent out of shape about it. I suppose you've never mistyped before.

In reply to:
If you're doing anaerobic exercise, then the "likelyhood" of that is zero, since it is impossible to fuel anaerobic exercise via aerobic pathways.

You're right. But whether anaerobic or aerobic pathways are used depends on the work being done and the individual's fitness level.

In reply to:
That is (a) false and (b) irrelevant to the subject.

It is not false and I feel that it was entirely relevant. Care to provide an example of when a muscle would burn FA while glycogen stores are full?


jt512


Jun 10, 2011, 11:44 AM
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Re: [ceebo] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
And how long would it typically take to replenish some/all gluco?. In other words are all these drinks and so just a con or do they actually actively help you maintain workload?.

If you're actually exercising at an intensity and duration where you're depleting glycogen, then a properly formulated sport drink helps hydration and repletion of glycogen. But we're talking all-day continuous climbing in the heat, not a 3-hour gym workout.


Learner


Jun 10, 2011, 11:58 AM
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Re: [ceebo] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
And how long would it typically take to replenish some/all gluco?. In other words are all these drinks and so just a con or do they actually actively help you maintain workload?.

I know that if you have low blood glucose levels, then consume a sugar-containing drink, blood glucose levels will be significantly higher in only 15 minutes. So, they would be rising far before that, likely almost immediately after you consume the sugar.

There have been many controlled studies involving a procedure through which blood glucose levels were intentionally increased, in attempt to detect the affect of the increased levels. They usually measure glucose levels, have the participants consume the drink, then wait 15 minutes after consumption and measure again to ensure that levels have increased.


(This post was edited by Learner on Jun 10, 2011, 12:03 PM)


ceebo


Jun 10, 2011, 12:03 PM
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Re: [jt512] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
And how long would it typically take to replenish some/all gluco?. In other words are all these drinks and so just a con or do they actually actively help you maintain workload?.

If you're actually exercising at an intensity and duration where you're depleting glycogen, then a properly formulated sport drink helps hydration and repletion of glycogen. But we're talking all-day continuous climbing in the heat, not a 3-hour gym workout.

Assuming your last sentence was not intended as some form of insult.. any training session (say 1-2 hours) will not need nor benefit from energy drinks?.

Nvm, ty learner.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 10, 2011, 12:06 PM)

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