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CiDirkona


Jun 19, 2011, 9:24 PM
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harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops?
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I'm just kinda curious about the technical nature of this...

Why does my harness have different locations for tying in with a rope versus a single belay loop for carabiners? I understand that it needs to be done, just curious about the differences between the two.

Thanks in advance!


celticelement


Jun 19, 2011, 11:49 PM
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Re: [CiDirkona] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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As I understand it...

Tying into the tie in loops removes one possible point of failure from the system. If you tie into the belay loop then you are adding the belay loop to the list of things that could kill you if they break, for no good reason.

The reason you add that loop back into the system when you belay is that it creates a situation where your carabiner is being loaded correctly. Your carabiner is designed to handle a load most effectively in one direction. If you were to put it through both of your tie in loops then you can get tri-axis loading which can greatly reduce the ability to handle force generated by falls. In other words it would create a situation where the carabiner is being stressed in 3 different directions... 1 for each of the 2 tie in loops and one for the rope.


billl7


Jun 20, 2011, 6:46 AM
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Re: [CiDirkona] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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I'll just add ...

Belay loops usually have two layers of protection, albeit both sort of subject to the same wear-and-tear at the edges at any given moment. Inspect your belay loop to see whether it has two 360-degree layers.

On my harness, one thing the tie-in points usually have that the belay loop does not is an out layer of material for wear and tear ... protects the load bearing material from abrasion due to movement of the tied in rope. The belay loop doesn't see this kind of abrasion if one only attachs biners to the belay loop ... ignoring the kind of abrasion possible from just walking around while wearing the harness.

From a practical view. another advantage of using the belay loop to attach a belay/rap device over the tie-in points is the belay loop allows the device to be further from clothing that might get caught up as the rope feeds.

Bill L


CiDirkona


Jun 20, 2011, 7:35 AM
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Re: [billl7] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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Ah, those all make perfect sense. Thanks! :)


johnwesely


Jun 20, 2011, 7:43 AM
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Re: [CiDirkona] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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Also, tying into the belay loop would result in your knot being farther from the harness than it has to be, resulting in it getting involved in all sorts of disasters.


rangerrob


Jun 20, 2011, 1:55 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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Sounds like John has a story to tell.


johnwesely


Jun 20, 2011, 3:42 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
Sounds like John has a story to tell.

No story. I promise.


Kartessa


Jun 20, 2011, 10:36 PM
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Re: [billl7] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:
On my harness, one thing the tie-in points usually have that the belay loop does not is an out layer of material for wear and tear ... protects the load bearing material from abrasion due to movement of the tied in rope. The belay loop doesn't see this kind of abrasion if one only attachs biners to the belay loop ... ignoring the kind of abrasion possible from just walking around while wearing the harness.

Fun fact: Most of the abrasion on the bottom tie-in/belay loops is caused by them rubbing against eachother when you walk. Rope isn't tied/moving enough to cause that kind of damage.


blueeyedclimber


Jun 21, 2011, 4:58 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
billl7 wrote:
On my harness, one thing the tie-in points usually have that the belay loop does not is an out layer of material for wear and tear ... protects the load bearing material from abrasion due to movement of the tied in rope. The belay loop doesn't see this kind of abrasion if one only attachs biners to the belay loop ... ignoring the kind of abrasion possible from just walking around while wearing the harness.

Fun fact: Most of the abrasion on the bottom tie-in/belay loops is caused by them rubbing against eachother when you walk. Rope isn't tied/moving enough to cause that kind of damage.

Where did you hear that? Do you have a link or did someone tell you that so you just assumed it was true?

To the op, are you asking why you shouldn't tie in to the belay loop or are you asking why there's only ONE belay loop but TWO tie in points?

Josh


Kartessa


Jun 21, 2011, 5:12 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
billl7 wrote:
On my harness, one thing the tie-in points usually have that the belay loop does not is an out layer of material for wear and tear ... protects the load bearing material from abrasion due to movement of the tied in rope. The belay loop doesn't see this kind of abrasion if one only attachs biners to the belay loop ... ignoring the kind of abrasion possible from just walking around while wearing the harness.

Fun fact: Most of the abrasion on the bottom tie-in/belay loops is caused by them rubbing against eachother when you walk. Rope isn't tied/moving enough to cause that kind of damage.

Where did you hear that? Do you have a link or did someone tell you that so you just assumed it was true?

Josh

I was told by an instructor of mine a few years ago. No link, but I have lots of "evidence" to support this theory including...

Look at your tie in loops, why is the bottom one beefier and wrapped in more shit than the top? Or
check out the new Mammut harness, they actually put a plastic cover on the bottom loop to reduce the friction.

Even better proof: Watch the loops when you walk and you'll see it for yourself.


blueeyedclimber


Jun 21, 2011, 5:32 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
I was told by an instructor of mine a few years ago.

Oh, it must be true then Crazy

In reply to:
Look at your tie in loops, why is the bottom one beefier and wrapped in more shit than the top? Or
check out the new Mammut harness, they actually put a plastic cover on the bottom loop to reduce the friction.

The bottom is reinforced because that is what take the weight when falling, hanging, and lowering.

Josh


Kartessa


Jun 21, 2011, 1:51 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
I was told by an instructor of mine a few years ago.

Oh, it must be true then Crazy

In reply to:
Look at your tie in loops, why is the bottom one beefier and wrapped in more shit than the top? Or
check out the new Mammut harness, they actually put a plastic cover on the bottom loop to reduce the friction.

The bottom is reinforced because that is what take the weight when falling, hanging, and lowering.

Josh

Sweet, another thread that's turned into a dick-measuring contest.

I'm not saying the rope doesn't rub, I'm just saying that walking creates a lot of wear.


Colinhoglund


Jun 21, 2011, 2:20 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
I was told by an instructor of mine a few years ago.

Oh, it must be true then Crazy

In reply to:
Look at your tie in loops, why is the bottom one beefier and wrapped in more shit than the top? Or
check out the new Mammut harness, they actually put a plastic cover on the bottom loop to reduce the friction.

The bottom is reinforced because that is what take the weight when falling, hanging, and lowering.

Josh

Sweet, another thread that's turned into a dick-measuring contest.

I'm not saying the rope doesn't rub, I'm just saying that walking creates a lot of wear.

Actually I've asked the local Petzl rep this question, and his answer makes sense but is surprising. While leading when you are above your gear your knot is below your tie in points, and after you fall it is above them. During a lead fall your knot is rotated in the fall, often right when you are loading the system the most. To illustrate this tie in and pull your knot down like it is when leading (especially true with lots of rope drag). Now pull up on the knot and observe where the rope rubs against your harness. You'll see most of the rubbing is on the leg tie in loop. Interesting no?


Partner j_ung


Jun 21, 2011, 2:34 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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I'll pay more attention next time I'm walking around in my harness, but it's worth noting that Josh is definitely right about the weight distribution. Leg loops take a large majority of it.


sp115


Jun 21, 2011, 9:06 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
I was told by an instructor of mine a few years ago.

Oh, it must be true then Crazy

In reply to:
Look at your tie in loops, why is the bottom one beefier and wrapped in more shit than the top? Or
check out the new Mammut harness, they actually put a plastic cover on the bottom loop to reduce the friction.

The bottom is reinforced because that is what take the weight when falling, hanging, and lowering.

Josh

Sweet, another thread that's turned into a dick-measuring contest.

I'm not saying the rope doesn't rub, I'm just saying that walking creates a lot of wear.

I'm with you, it takes about 10-seconds of walking to realize it's probably not a great a idea to walk with a harness on.


blueeyedclimber


Jun 21, 2011, 10:15 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Kartessa wrote:
I was told by an instructor of mine a few years ago.

Oh, it must be true then Crazy

In reply to:
Look at your tie in loops, why is the bottom one beefier and wrapped in more shit than the top? Or
check out the new Mammut harness, they actually put a plastic cover on the bottom loop to reduce the friction.

The bottom is reinforced because that is what take the weight when falling, hanging, and lowering.

Josh

Sweet, another thread that's turned into a dick-measuring contest.

I'm not saying the rope doesn't rub, I'm just saying that walking creates a lot of wear.

How is anything I said to be interpreted as "my dick is bigger than yours." (which it is btwTongue)

You said something that I have not heard before and frankly doesn't make sense. Harnesses are not made to walk in, they are made for climbing. Why would a manufacturer design something to guard against something that the product is not designed for anyways?

If you want to spew stuff on a public forum, don't be surprised when someone calls you out on it.

You may be right about the wear while walking, who knows. But I seriously doubt that a harness was designed with that in mind.

Josh


dagibbs


Jun 22, 2011, 9:19 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Harnesses are not made to walk in, they are made for climbing. Why would a manufacturer design something to guard against something that the product is not designed for anyways?

Josh

Harnesses are designed for climbing, yes. But people walk around in harnesses. I don't know about you -- but I, and almost everyone I know of, who is out for a day of cragging will put the harness on in the morning, and take it off at the end of the day. They'll walk from climb to climb wearing the harness, they'll sit down and eat lunch wearing the harness, they'll hike up to set a top-rope in the harness, they'll walk down from the climb in a harness, etc.

If someone designing harnesses did not take into account the way harnesses are commonly used, then that would be incompetent design for the harness.


blueeyedclimber


Jun 22, 2011, 8:05 PM
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Re: [dagibbs] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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dagibbs wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Harnesses are not made to walk in, they are made for climbing. Why would a manufacturer design something to guard against something that the product is not designed for anyways?

Josh

Harnesses are designed for climbing, yes. But people walk around in harnesses. I don't know about you -- but I, and almost everyone I know of, who is out for a day of cragging will put the harness on in the morning, and take it off at the end of the day. They'll walk from climb to climb wearing the harness, they'll sit down and eat lunch wearing the harness, they'll hike up to set a top-rope in the harness, they'll walk down from the climb in a harness, etc.

If someone designing harnesses did not take into account the way harnesses are commonly used, then that would be incompetent design for the harness.

Yes, we walk around in harnesses. I get that. But where is the evidence that walking is the main contributor (not climbing) to harness wear and tear? I don't buy it.

Josh


jt512


Jun 22, 2011, 8:11 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Harnesses are not made to walk in, they are made for climbing. Why would a manufacturer design something to guard against something that the product is not designed for anyways?

Josh

Harnesses are designed for climbing, yes. But people walk around in harnesses. I don't know about you -- but I, and almost everyone I know of, who is out for a day of cragging will put the harness on in the morning, and take it off at the end of the day. They'll walk from climb to climb wearing the harness, they'll sit down and eat lunch wearing the harness, they'll hike up to set a top-rope in the harness, they'll walk down from the climb in a harness, etc.

If someone designing harnesses did not take into account the way harnesses are commonly used, then that would be incompetent design for the harness.

Yes, we walk around in harnesses. I get that. But where is the evidence that walking is the main contributor (not climbing) to harness wear and tear? I don't buy it.

Josh

I think you underestimate the amount of time that n00bs walk around in their harnesses. This includes non-climbing days.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 17, 2011, 12:39 AM)


dagibbs


Jun 22, 2011, 8:29 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Harnesses are not made to walk in, they are made for climbing. Why would a manufacturer design something to guard against something that the product is not designed for anyways?

Josh

Harnesses are designed for climbing, yes. But people walk around in harnesses. I don't know about you -- but I, and almost everyone I know of, who is out for a day of cragging will put the harness on in the morning, and take it off at the end of the day. They'll walk from climb to climb wearing the harness, they'll sit down and eat lunch wearing the harness, they'll hike up to set a top-rope in the harness, they'll walk down from the climb in a harness, etc.

If someone designing harnesses did not take into account the way harnesses are commonly used, then that would be incompetent design for the harness.

Yes, we walk around in harnesses. I get that. But where is the evidence that walking is the main contributor (not climbing) to harness wear and tear? I don't buy it.

Josh

I don't know one way or the other. But I wasn't arguing that point. I was arguing that harness manufacturers might have to take into account walking if it was a wear factor, even if it wasn't what harness were for.


blueeyedclimber


Jun 23, 2011, 7:46 AM
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Re: [jt512] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Harnesses are not made to walk in, they are made for climbing. Why would a manufacturer design something to guard against something that the product is not designed for anyways?

Josh

Harnesses are designed for climbing, yes. But people walk around in harnesses. I don't know about you -- but I, and almost everyone I know of, who is out for a day of cragging will put the harness on in the morning, and take it off at the end of the day. They'll walk from climb to climb wearing the harness, they'll sit down and eat lunch wearing the harness, they'll hike up to set a top-rope in the harness, they'll walk down from the climb in a harness, etc.

If someone designing harnesses did not take into account the way harnesses are commonly used, then that would be incompetent design for the harness.

Yes, we walk around in harnesses. I get that. But where is the evidence that walking is the main contributor (not climbing) to harness wear and tear? I don't buy it.

Josh

I think you underestimate to amount of time that n00bs walk around in their harnesses. This includes non-climbing days.

Jay

Well, if we're talking about n00bs, then maybe the wear comes from bouldering in a harness. In the gym. Cool

Josh


blueeyedclimber


Jun 23, 2011, 7:51 AM
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Re: [dagibbs] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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dagibbs wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Harnesses are not made to walk in, they are made for climbing. Why would a manufacturer design something to guard against something that the product is not designed for anyways?

Josh

Harnesses are designed for climbing, yes. But people walk around in harnesses. I don't know about you -- but I, and almost everyone I know of, who is out for a day of cragging will put the harness on in the morning, and take it off at the end of the day. They'll walk from climb to climb wearing the harness, they'll sit down and eat lunch wearing the harness, they'll hike up to set a top-rope in the harness, they'll walk down from the climb in a harness, etc.

If someone designing harnesses did not take into account the way harnesses are commonly used, then that would be incompetent design for the harness.

Yes, we walk around in harnesses. I get that. But where is the evidence that walking is the main contributor (not climbing) to harness wear and tear? I don't buy it.

Josh

I don't know one way or the other. But I wasn't arguing that point. I was arguing that harness manufacturers might have to take into account walking if it was a wear factor, even if it wasn't what harness were for.

Maybe. I took exception to her statement that the main contributor to wear on a harness was walking in it. And, she called
It a fact. If she said "I have a theory" or "I think" or "someone told me this , is it true?", I probably wouldn't have said anything.

Josh


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Jun 23, 2011, 8:36 AM
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Re: [jt512] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Harnesses are not made to walk in, they are made for climbing. Why would a manufacturer design something to guard against something that the product is not designed for anyways?

Josh

Harnesses are designed for climbing, yes. But people walk around in harnesses. I don't know about you -- but I, and almost everyone I know of, who is out for a day of cragging will put the harness on in the morning, and take it off at the end of the day. They'll walk from climb to climb wearing the harness, they'll sit down and eat lunch wearing the harness, they'll hike up to set a top-rope in the harness, they'll walk down from the climb in a harness, etc.

If someone designing harnesses did not take into account the way harnesses are commonly used, then that would be incompetent design for the harness.

Yes, we walk around in harnesses. I get that. But where is the evidence that walking is the main contributor (not climbing) to harness wear and tear? I don't buy it.

Josh

I think you underestimate to amount of time that n00bs walk around in their harnesses. This includes non-climbing days.

Jay

I sometimes, when no one is around, strip down and put my harness on at home. Nothing but me and my harness in a natural state. I'll spend the entire day in that harness. Naked.

Does this make me a n0ob? More importantly, does this cause excessive wear on to my harness?


erisspirit


Jun 23, 2011, 10:32 AM
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Re: [epoch] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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epoch wrote:
jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Harnesses are not made to walk in, they are made for climbing. Why would a manufacturer design something to guard against something that the product is not designed for anyways?

Josh

Harnesses are designed for climbing, yes. But people walk around in harnesses. I don't know about you -- but I, and almost everyone I know of, who is out for a day of cragging will put the harness on in the morning, and take it off at the end of the day. They'll walk from climb to climb wearing the harness, they'll sit down and eat lunch wearing the harness, they'll hike up to set a top-rope in the harness, they'll walk down from the climb in a harness, etc.

If someone designing harnesses did not take into account the way harnesses are commonly used, then that would be incompetent design for the harness.

Yes, we walk around in harnesses. I get that. But where is the evidence that walking is the main contributor (not climbing) to harness wear and tear? I don't buy it.

Josh

I think you underestimate to amount of time that n00bs walk around in their harnesses. This includes non-climbing days.

Jay

I sometimes, when no one is around, strip down and put my harness on at home. Nothing but me and my harness in a natural state. I'll spend the entire day in that harness. Naked.

Does this make me a n0ob? More importantly, does this cause excessive wear on to my harness?


Now there's a mental image that can scar for life...


caughtinside


Jun 23, 2011, 10:41 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] harness: difference between belay loop vs tie in loops? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
billl7 wrote:
On my harness, one thing the tie-in points usually have that the belay loop does not is an out layer of material for wear and tear ... protects the load bearing material from abrasion due to movement of the tied in rope. The belay loop doesn't see this kind of abrasion if one only attachs biners to the belay loop ... ignoring the kind of abrasion possible from just walking around while wearing the harness.

Fun fact: Most of the abrasion on the bottom tie-in/belay loops is caused by them rubbing against eachother when you walk. Rope isn't tied/moving enough to cause that kind of damage.

Well that is a fun rong fact.

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