After trying big rungs a few times they do not give the same gains that i am making from the 3/4 inch in terms of finger strength. However, you are doing doubles where as im still doing taps and ladders.

How're you quantifying your finger strength gains? If it's by watching how many sets/reps you can complete for this training method, how're you controlling your experiment for improvements in technique?

It may (may!) be more accurate to ignore the first two or three weeks of the training (perhaps even a month), during which time you're putting together better technique for it. An activity like campusing rungs has much less technique available to be learned. Therefore, it seems logical that one would reach the point where muscular gains outpace technique gains much more quickly than actually climbing.

During the first few weeks, I think your body would still be making gains in places other than your fingers (technique, tension, etc), and since your goal is to measure finger strength while attempting to control for other gains, you might want to perhaps throw out the first few weeks.

Perhaps you're already doing this.

You've gone into this with the idea that you're going to be flamed. I'm not flaming you. I'm curious.

im just trying to figure out if im putting too much emphasis on maximum finger strength gains.

So am i just completely wrong in that understanding or will it be far more efficiant to use fast twitch contractions in form of dynamic climbing when ever possible?.

I sense i lost you with that last one

what are the objectives you train for in the short span (0-6 months)?
Any specific routes/boulders?
Grades, styles?
Any incoming trips, projects, competitions, etc?
Are these goals truly motivating? Challenging, but realistic? Limited in number and not conflicting with each other?

if your objectives are well formulated squeeze your brain and you'll have the answer...
(of course, if flesh is a friend of yours who actually knows you and your objectives very well, he can give an informed advice on this matter)

(and of course smaller rungs are for fingers and doubles on bigger rungs are for big muscles and coordination : jus ask yourself what you need the most...)




i don't know, for the sake of discussion...
your question sounds like someone who trains for the sake of training (good, training is fun in a way!) or someone who trains to "get better at climbing" without a clear idea of what "better" means for you.

I'm very critical of the second case. I see the desire to to improve at something without being able to define what improvement means in the details as the sign of one (or more) of the following cases:
-very simply, lack of goal-setting skills, or overlooking the importance of goal-setting.
-lack of a genuine passion fo the activity where the improvement is desired. The passion is there for "improvement", rather than for climbing or whatever other activity it is referred to.
-lack of personality. someone who waits for others to set trends, expectations, standards he/she needs to conform to.

Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

Not quite sure why personal goals or motivation has anything to do with this.

I do hope fast twitch is not that important because if this is true ''The problem is that fast and superfast twitch fibers can be changed into slow twitch fibers by doing endurance training. But once they change, they don't change back.'' then allot of us are fucked..

Or is that why doubles are so good?.. so you can build mass and then recruit it to fast twitch?.

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

So your body will burn energy in the following order. First it uses adrenaline. When your adrenaline is depleted it will burn glucose. When your glucose is depleted, it will make more glucose or glycogen. Where does it get the molecules to make this extra glucose? It comes from that place where your body stored all the carbs you weren't using, in your fat cells. This is how the body burns fat. As a general rule, after twenty minutes of continuous exercise (running, swimming, climbing, etc), your body will deplete its available reserve of adrenaline and glucose. After that, you are burning your stored energy (fat).

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

What is the most difficult, gradewise, climb you have ever done?

Maybe make it multiple choice.

Jay

Yeah lets go with that, does ceebo warm up on jays max Yes or no

The range was 7b to a arguably soft 8a (so i call it 7c+). Attempts wise, i don't see the point in even trying to count.. they were all at or past my limit at that time so they all took allot of failed attempts.

I didn't ask for a range. Have you ever red pointed a route graded 8a or 7c+?

Did i not just tell you?.

Not quite sure why personal goals or motivation has anything to do with this..

it has because if, let's say, i'm a runner and more specifically i'm motivated by marathons, i don't give a fuck about fast twitch fibers, and that ends the discussion.

(just to make a gross generalization. but my point was more about your hamletic doubt between two campus board routines, than about the non-reversibility issue).



whether and how the non-reversibility thing is important in climbing is an interesting issue in itself.
(edit : apparently it's not such a big issue anyway, if learner is right?)

My 2 cents is that it's too early to know for sure, and we're still in an era where empiricism works best.
An answer sounding like "doubles improve your reach and hand-eye coordination in big dynamic moves" should satisfy you.
Still too early to focus on the science behind it, imho.

remember that most sports physiology studies are about "simple" tasks such as running or weightlifting, and we have a hard time applying knoledge gained in those areas to climbing...

maybe in 10 years climbing comps will go olympic and all WC athletes in boulder, lead and speed competitions will be followed by a medical staff à-la-Patxi...
then we'll have the kind of answers you are looking for, and knowing those answer will make a true difference (at the elite level).









(hint : if we only look at muscular issues, 90% of the times the limiting factor on any climb/move comes from your finger flexors being too weak or not having enough stamina. Empirically speaking, you have to hold those crimps, pockets, slopers and pinches!

Now, your finger flexors normally perform a series of isometric contractions during a climb.
Whereas those sports or exercises from which we try to borrow our knowledge mostly involve bigger muscles and in a much more dynamic fashion...
that's the root of the problem and the reason why i'm skeptical.

Though, if anyone has good scientific resources about the physiology of intermittent isometric contractions in a smaller muscle group, i'm very interested...)

Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.