*facepalm*

To be quite honest ceebo, I try not to overcomplicate things. These are MY goals, and i base my training on them.

1. To progress as quickly as possible.
2. To never get injured again.
3. To train for a boulder comp coming up
4. after that to train for a red point I've wanted for 9 years since before my bad injury
5. after the redpoint, to climb three specific boulders this fall

So when I train, it's all about this, how can I put more weight on my fingers (for power, more weight=more power) without getting injured. For me and I suspect most, injuries are more likely to occur from crimping vs open handed. So my goal is simply to find the best way to put the most weight on my fingers in the open hand position.

The best way I've found to do this is doing doubles on a decent size rung that allows me to stay open handed (in general the smaller the rung, the harder it is to stay open, or the smaller the rung, your fingers naturally move into a open crimp position). Instead of using a smaller rung as I get stronger I add weight, up to 30 lbs in some cases, once again, so I can stay open while putting more weight on my fingers= more finga powa!

If anyone can figure out a better way to put more weight on your fingers than this while staying open I'd love to know. You would have to take into the dynamic weight effect to figure this out. In otherwords, I know if I hand off one small open handed sloper with one had it would be more weight than if I was haning off a rung with both hands, but, would it be more weight than that one second in time when I go up or down doing doubles with 20 lbs on my back?

More importantly is this, is the training your doing producing results? In my case, the way i campus, am I going up in reps/weight over time in a controllable measurable way? Is it improving my climbing? The answer is yes, proofs in the pudding. That's all i need to know, I don't care what twitch it is.

In just the last 2 months I went from a best of 8 reps without weight on a one pad open hand rung doing doubles with 10 minute rests betweeen to my current best which was yesterday, I did 12 reps on one set with 14 lbs and 10 reps on two sets with 15 lbs. Is it improving my climbing? I haven't gone up in grades yet, but it's too hot to send hard outside, I suspect I'll go up in grades this fall. However, I am climbing boulders inside that are below my limit much faster than before. Also, alot of the problems I'm doing no one else in my gym has done, which tells me they must be hard ;), plus, this didn't use to happen very often.

ceebo if your fingers aren't failing before your pull muscles on the larger rungs while adding weight try this.

1. don't focus on skipping as many rungs on the way up. Start near the top, only go up one rung, not skipping any, then on the way down, skip 2 rungs, this focuses more on the fingers and less on the pull muscles, doubles of course.

2. Use step one and add more weight, I've added up to 30lbs at this point.

I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try

Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?.

I''ll answer in three parts.

A. "yes there are times where a targeted exercise will be way more effective than "just climbing".

most commonly it would be because the bouldering (or lead) wall and your local outdoor boulders/crags don't offer the kind of stimulus you need.
eg if i want to train for frankenjura but my gym and outdoor venues don't offer pockets, i'll fingerboard a lot...

in a few occasions it is just easier to first develop the muscle and then the technique that uses it than doing both at the same time.
eg, my footwork on steep stuff improved drastically when i started to work on the front lever.


B.but for 90% of climbers the biggest limitations are elsewhere.
extreme example.
Being climbing with this strong newbie lately.
Very clear 8b redpoint/7c OS potential if only he knew how to get 100% out of the machine (i climb close enough to those grades, eand seen him in enough situations, to judge)
Made his first 7a OS and 7b+ OS a few days ago on routes chosen to suit his strenghts.
This climber just needs lots of mileage on easy and hard ground, before the day when some part of his body will be a major limiting factor...even for the indoor lead routes where he already excels.

C.Non-climbing training supplements are hard to master, for a few reasons.
-assessing what muscular deficit limits you (if any) is often tricky.
-boards, systems, weight rooms...things that produce measurable gains (from 8 to 10 reps, from 0 to 20 lbs). Dangerously rewarding: many shift their focus from their initial objective to the campus exercise in itself
-Muscular gains often happen faster than the technique changes needed to make the most out of them (unless you're a kid maybe. kids learn fast). This means that during a heavy "training supplementation" cycle you'll inevitably shift from being muscle-limited to being technique-limited.





btw
i consider indoor climbing as "just climbing".
I see many indoor-only climbers where i live.
I've known a few climbers whose objective #1 are competitions.
And anyway, even for those of us who care about the outdoors, indoor bouldering/lead is the closest we can do to "the real thing" during the week.

To be quite honest ceebo, I try not to overcomplicate things. These are MY goals, and i base my training on them.

1. To progress as quickly as possible.
2. To never get injured again.
3. To train for a boulder comp coming up
4. after that to train for a red point I've wanted for 9 years since before my bad injury
5. after the redpoint, to climb three specific boulders this fall

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

for sport routes my first try would be to simply boulder the individual moves/sequences a bit, at least if it's convenient enough.

for actual boulders i'd use every possible trick to get a feel of the next hold and, if possible, ask someone to push me up a bit while i try the move.

sometimes moves you are 100% physically ready for still feel ackward and almost impossible at first try.
Yet 20 tries later the move is rock solid.

Of course there are also many cases where after trying a lot i just feel that i'm not ready for the move.

whether i'll try to train specifically for it depends on the situation.

Sometimes it's just obvious that I just need some extra crimp/open hand/reach/power/flexibility/whatever...

Sometimes i train in a gym where i am allowed to build a good "simulator".

If not, well, i just leave it for a while...

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?.

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.

Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part.

That was my original text, maybe my definition of supplementary training is wrong. I did not think it was the same as ''cross training''. If sprinter wants to build power in legs then i assume he can do some supplementary leg weight training for that. If a cyclist wants to train ascent endurance but has no hill/mountain big enough in his area.. then he can use a indoor machine where the tension band (or what ever) can mimic steep terrain allowing him to work to his own level.

They have options to see improvement under circumstances other than their intended sport (but not instead of).

I can't quite believe that the likes of campusing, indoor climbing and anything of that nature could not be considered supplementary training. He is trying to make it out as though these are cross training.

(yes the sprinter example was a bad one)

Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?.

I can't quite believe that the likes of campusing, indoor climbing and anything of that nature could not be considered supplementary training. He is trying to make it out as though these are cross training.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.