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Maxx640


Jun 23, 2011, 2:15 AM
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Noob anchor questions...
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Hello there,

I have been talking with climbers at my local gym about anchor questions. I climb easy trad routes and really enjoy doing so. But for the moment, the ones I have been doing are always equipped with fixed anchors (chain). As Iím getting better, I would like to go up a level and climb totally virgin routes. However I have a few questions to submit about the anchors.

When I climb with someone who alternatively leads: no problem. I do a clove hitch on each rope (I use a double 8.2mm) on two points then do a knot with the rope that is equalized between 3 points, and belay from that. It uses a bit of rope but is fast and easy.

However, when I lead up all the pitches or need the whole length of rope, Iím less sure of what to do. I tried at home the triangulation system by petzl with a sling:

The problem is that with a 120cm sling the knot takes up the entire sling. I would need a massive one to do that. Unless I use something like 7mm rope closed by a double fishermanís knot and take 4m of it. Does anybody do that here?

Another system pointed out to me was to use a piece of rope 8mm with a carabineer on each end Ė but that is bulky and heavy:
This is adaptable on three points.

At last I thought of a sling per cam and you clip in each sling to belay the second. The problem is equalizing out the lengths of the slings. Is it possible to tie a knot in a sling and clip above the knot to equalize it with a smaller one? But in that case the 3 cams (for example) are not linked togetherÖ

What could you advise me, in order to build bomber anchors?
Thanks,


sbaclimber


Jun 23, 2011, 4:22 AM
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Re: [Maxx640] Noob anchor questions... [In reply to]
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Maxx640 wrote:
Unless I use something like 7mm rope closed by a double fishermanís knot and take 4m of it. Does anybody do that here?
.
.
What could you advise me, in order to build bomber anchors?
Yes
.
.
Cordelette / Webolette


dbogardus


Jun 23, 2011, 4:23 AM
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Just use a cordelette when you're not swinging leads. Not sure what you know about self rescue but escaping the belay is more difficult when you're building the anchor out of the rope (which I think you're describing for when you are swinging leads). Use some slings and other things you'd normally carry up on your regular rack to customize the set up when needed.

This is a great book:
http://www.amazon.com/...308827911&sr=8-2


Maxx640


Jun 23, 2011, 6:08 AM
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Great, thank you very much for the quick answers. In the event of rather close points and letís say a cordelette of 5m; how do you shorten it? I can difficultly imagine redoing a double fishermanís knot at the top of each pitch!


Can I use the cordelette untied with a figure eight knot at each end and not close it with a double fishermanís knot (like the orange one in the picture above)?

In that case is 7mm enough?


sbaclimber


Jun 23, 2011, 6:17 AM
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Maxx640 wrote:
Can I use the cordelette untied with a figure eight knot at each end and not close it with a double fishermanís knot (like the orange one in the picture above)?

In that case is 7mm enough?
In that case, I would recommend a webolette. The knots in the 7mm cord will weaken it to below the strength of a webolette.


BTW, as a tip for you (fwiw)....
I don't do as much multipitch as I used to, but when I do, I rarely carry a webolette any more, unless I am pretty sure I am going to have to get really creative building anchors.
When trad climbing, I make sure to have at least 1 120cm and plenty of 60cm slings. When building an anchor, I simply extend my pieces as needed, and then use the 120cm for my power point.
e.g. 4 pieces, 2x w/ 60cm sling equalized (sliding-x), joined w/ 120cm into power point:



(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jun 23, 2011, 6:33 AM)
Attachments: Anchor.JPG (142 KB)


dbogardus


Jun 23, 2011, 6:34 AM
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sbaclimber wrote:
The knots in the 7mm cord will weaken it to below the strength of a webolette.

I thought a 6-8mm cord with a fishman's was pretty standard, or at least more common, than a webolette.

While I understand how knots decrease the overall strength, I would be interested inseeing some additional info on whether or not it's actually a material difference compared to the webolette alternative.


sbaclimber


Jun 23, 2011, 6:41 AM
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dbogardus wrote:
sbaclimber wrote:
The knots in the 7mm cord will weaken it to below the strength of a webolette.

I thought a 6-8mm cord with a fishman's was pretty standard, or at least more common, than a webolette.
It is...but Max wasn't asking about a cordolette (as such) any more.


scrapedape


Jun 23, 2011, 8:00 AM
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In reply to:
Can I use the cordelette untied with a figure eight knot at each end and not close it with a double fishermanís knot (like the orange one in the picture above)?

In that case is 7mm enough?

Don't do that. A single 7mm strand with knots may not be strong enough, as others have noted.

Moreover, at least around here, no one else does it that way. I would venture that sometimes it's best to just stick with generally accepted gear. Even if your idea is not actually dangerous, ask yourself if it really offers enough of a benefit that it will be worth explaining it to potential partners, etc.

Maxx640 wrote:
Great, thank you very much for the quick answers. In the event of rather close points and letís say a cordelette of 5m; how do you shorten it? I can difficultly imagine redoing a double fishermanís knot at the top of each pitch!

I have not found this to be much of a problem in practice.

You definitely don't want to be untying and re-tying your cordelette every time.

You can control the length somewhat by choosing between an overhead and a figure eight for your master point.

You can also err on the side of a shorter cordellette, and then gain more length when needed by extending one or more of the anchor pieces with a draw.


bearbreeder


Jun 23, 2011, 9:27 PM
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a 240 cm dyneema sling ... they are pretty light

or 6m+ of cordelette

ive also used 5+m of 8mm rope as shown in yr photo

cordelette is prob the most flexible as you can use it for cheap rap tat, as a prussik, untie it and do nifty things, etc ...

one thing i find is that using a single sling/cord for the anchor is faster than using 2+ slings ... faster to set up for me and to take down, and less to drop

also the less knots the better ... for 2 point anchors i now clove the "power point" rather than fig 8 it ... less messing around with untying knots ...

find what works for you


Maxx640


Jun 24, 2011, 7:16 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
a 240 cm dyneema sling ... they are pretty light

I was told to avoid dyneema for anchors because of it's low melting temperature (with the friction on the knot). Best to use it only for draws apparently.

Can you just precise what you call the master/power point? I'm not a english native and haven't found a translation for the term... Sorry!


sbaclimber


Jun 24, 2011, 7:26 AM
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Maxx640 wrote:
Can you just precise what you call the master/power point?



(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jun 24, 2011, 7:47 AM)
Attachments: powerpoint.jpg (97.3 KB)


bearbreeder


Jun 24, 2011, 7:47 AM
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Maxx640 wrote:
I was told to avoid dyneema for anchors because of it's low melting temperature (with the friction on the knot). Best to use it only for draws apparently.

you were told wrong ... friction is mainly an issue with friction knots

plenty of people use dyneema slings for anchors with narry an issue


Partner cracklover


Jun 24, 2011, 9:43 AM
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Maxx640 wrote:
Great, thank you very much for the quick answers. In the event of rather close points and letís say a cordelette of 5m; how do you shorten it? I can difficultly imagine redoing a double fishermanís knot at the top of each pitch!


Can I use the cordelette untied with a figure eight knot at each end and not close it with a double fishermanís knot (like the orange one in the picture above)?

In that case is 7mm enough?

If the points are very close, don't use the cordelette, use a standard sling. If they're a little farther, double up the cordelette so it's half the length. If they're a little farther than that, but still closer than what you'd want for the full length, just tie off a bight with a knot. A little farther than that, just use extra wraps on your knots.

I'm not sure if this is all coming across, since you're not a native English speaker. Let me know if pictures would help.

GO


Partner rgold


Jun 24, 2011, 8:32 PM
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Have a look Paul Raphaelson's ACR cordelette.

http://www.paulraphaelson.com/downloads/acr.pdf


Partner cracklover


Jun 26, 2011, 6:19 PM
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rgold wrote:
Have a look Paul Raphaelson's ACR cordelette.

http://www.paulraphaelson.com/downloads/acr.pdf

Thanks for sharing - looks pretty nifty.

Will play around with it.

GO


Solnyschkamynka


Jun 26, 2011, 7:06 PM
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i saw that too. its a square Wink


Solnyschkamynka


Jun 26, 2011, 7:08 PM
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the tension of a square knot pulls entirely downward. a figure eight offers more mobility and less stress in general. if your sling doesn't tqist right buy a 22 or 20 foot cordellette. have them cut the rope for you at your local climbing business. dont climb on this anchor


moose_droppings


Jun 26, 2011, 7:53 PM
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Looks like it would be worth trying out at least. One comment, the same one people gave mine. If the cord is cut anywhere outside of the leg that is tied in a loop, the whole thing comes undone. I modified mine with two more knotted loops that got clipped which would prevent that. I never thought it was such a big deal, but many criticized it for that. I figure, if a rock that big is going to come through and cut the perlon, it'll probably do me in before the the anchor giving way.


sbaclimber


Jun 26, 2011, 11:37 PM
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Solnyschkamynka wrote:
i saw that too. its a square Wink
Solnyschkamynka wrote:
the tension of a square knot pulls entirely downward. a figure eight offers more mobility and less stress in general. if your sling doesn't tqist right buy a 22 or 20 foot cordellette. have them cut the rope for you at your local climbing business. dont climb on this anchor
What are you talking about...?


Solnyschkamynka


Jun 27, 2011, 3:43 AM
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I'm talking about the "equalized" knot. It appears in the photograph to be a square knot. I prefer to use a figure eight. If it takes up the entire cordelette just use some webbing-double slung introducing length to your system. I never anchor with a square because it simple redirects tension up then down, therefore, it may be okay on a super dynamic rope, but a clove hitch is definitely better. any hitch over the square knot. of course, one of my favorite climbing buddies is born on a perfect square date. that is to say, his birthday is similar to the number 3/9 or 9/3. but I make him climb on figure eights, and although you have to replace the rope WAY more often, it's better for overall security because it's weight and versatility as anchoring knot are definitely less obtrusive and time consuming. I love my friend and everything we do together, I just don't want to appear as if I'm staring at him every time I check my anchor direction, especially when preparing for a fall. Planned or un planned. So I am saying: Climb top rope, but use a figure 8 knot. Therefore, it's able to simulate trad while toproping. if you think I'm crazy. That is your own natural opinion.


sbaclimber


Jun 27, 2011, 4:05 AM
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Solnyschkamynka wrote:
if you think I'm crazy. That is your own natural opinion.
I don't think your crazy, just maybe slightly misinformed....

btw, the knot you are talking about is not a "square" knot, but rather an "overhand" knot...and no, the fact that it is an overhand knot was not what I was pointing out in the picture with the drawn circle.


(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jun 27, 2011, 4:06 AM)


Solnyschkamynka


Jun 27, 2011, 4:12 AM
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I still don't climb on overhand for resemblance to square. why you think I misinformed? Overhand know is just backwards square knot.If I am left handed my overhand may look like square. I didn't ask you question, but thanks for answer.

This forum doesn't support other script, so everyone must type in English. My friend, his family on mothers side is originally from Germany. I have taken him to climb once, and he did not disappoint. Thanks for the friend. But look,his mother's first husband had accident and is no longer with us, so I climb on safest knots. Do you think which is safer, overhand or figure eight? knot must be tied on a bite, so I say figure eight.


sbaclimber


Jun 27, 2011, 4:24 AM
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Solnyschkamynka wrote:
I still don't climb on overhand for resemblance to square.
okay..... (I still don't understand why)
Solnyschkamynka wrote:
why you think I misinformed?
Because of statements like this...
Solnyschkamynka wrote:
I never anchor with a square because it simple redirects tension up then down, therefore, it may be okay on a super dynamic rope, but a clove hitch is definitely better.

Solnyschkamynka wrote:
Overhand know is just backwards square knot.
no
Solnyschkamynka wrote:
If I am left handed my overhand may look like square.
no

Solnyschkamynka wrote:
Do you think which is safer, overhand or figure eight? knot must be tied on a bite, so I say figure eight.
Based purely on the results of strength tests, I won't disagree with you. An overhand knot has been shown to weaken the rope *slightly* more than a fig. 8.
The rest of your arguments for preferring a fig. 8 or clove hitch over an overhand may just be being lost in translation, because I am not understanding them.


Solnyschkamynka


Jun 27, 2011, 4:27 AM
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its cause my family was shot by bolsheiviks in 1944 and my last name means stone in Russian. I like lawyers, therefore.


sbaclimber


Jun 27, 2011, 4:35 AM
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Solnyschkamynka wrote:
its cause my family was shot by bolsheiviks in 1944 and my last name means stone in Russian. I like lawyers, therefore.
Oh, well, that explains everything then.

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