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jdgilberg


Jul 5, 2011, 10:23 PM
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24HHH training
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I've recently started my training for 24 Hours of Horseshoe Hell and had a few questions about if my methods are the right way to go.

I have been setting a weekly goal of a certain number of moves to hit over 3 climbing days. I am doing bouldering circuits that range from 25-60 moves in duration and 5.8-5.11- in difficulty. My current set up is to increase the number of moves every few weeks as well as gradually increase the number of moves at a higher difficulty while trying to not get super pumped.

The circuits usually last between 1:00 and 1:30 and I do 3:00 of rest. So today I got in 720 moves with half being 5.10 or so in about an hour.

I'm unsure if I should concentrate on doing these same type workouts and gradually reduce the rest or if I should try to drop the difficulty way down and go for longer times on the wall, thanks for any advice you may have


Learner


Jul 5, 2011, 11:30 PM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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jdgilberg wrote:
I've recently started my training for 24 Hours of Horseshoe Hell and had a few questions about if my methods are the right way to go.

I have been setting a weekly goal of a certain number of moves to hit over 3 climbing days. I am doing bouldering circuits that range from 25-60 moves in duration and 5.8-5.11- in difficulty. My current set up is to increase the number of moves every few weeks as well as gradually increase the number of moves at a higher difficulty while trying to not get super pumped.

The circuits usually last between 1:00 and 1:30 and I do 3:00 of rest. So today I got in 720 moves with half being 5.10 or so in about an hour.

I'm unsure if I should concentrate on doing these same type workouts and gradually reduce the rest or if I should try to drop the difficulty way down and go for longer times on the wall, thanks for any advice you may have
What are your goals, specifically?

What type of climbing do you want to be better prepared for after your training?

Are you training to increase your performance on a specific length and/or type of route? If so, what are they?

Perhaps you have more details than what is available at http://www.twofourhell.com



(This post was edited by Learner on Jul 5, 2011, 11:36 PM)


ghisino


Jul 6, 2011, 6:09 AM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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unless very special cases occur* it seems that objective #1 is climbing as many routes as possible...then once the number of routes is set, you can start worrying about the difficulty.


to train for that : volume comes first.
Forget circuits, for "volume work" setting them is just a waste of time that can be spent moving on the wall...

At least now, just put in as many moves/week you can.
Never get more than a moderate pump.

(less boring variations than a wall : go to a crag or bouldering venue and try to break your record of "routes/problems in a day". Go multipitching on easy, long stuff, trying to be as fast as possible)

This should give you the basis to endure the long day and recover quickly from the occasional hard route.
Make it the base of your training.

You can add one quick strenght (aka bouldering, with long rests) session per week to make it less boring and to keep a decent max strenght

take an easy week every month. (3 hard ones-one easy).
Drink during training.
Eat carbs 2hrs before and right after each session.

In the last month before the event you can increase the difficulty and back off the volume accordingly.
Drop the bouldering session for a power endurance one (deep pump, long rests)

Full rest in the 3 to 5 days before and carbo loading in the 24 hours before.

During the event : Drink A LOT, have a carb-based snack and a nap (15-20 minutes?) every 2-3 hours.
Triple check knots and belay systems especially as you get tired...



*Some special conditions might make it impossible to climb "as many routes as possible regardless of their grade" or just not that convenient.
Eg:
-too crowded
-too few lines
-score system rewarding difficulty too much (eg 5.11a being given 10 times the points of 5.10a...)

if that is the case, i'd keep the general flavour of this plan but switch to "less volume and harder routes" earlier...




side effects :
-this kind of training will kill any other objective you might have right now. Especially hard redpoints.

-It could be a very good base for hardcore strenght and power-endurance cycles after the event. And a very good idea if you're still relatively new to climbing.

-you could loose a some weight in the process, and gain it suddenly right after.

-you could get overtrained (sleepy, fatigued, depressed state) or get an overuse injury, especially if you don't keep the difficulty low during the "volume" phase.


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jul 6, 2011, 6:10 AM)


kappydane


Jul 6, 2011, 6:31 AM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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Friend Horseshoe Hell on facebook. Then go to Notes on their page. I have listed some strategies/tricks/training tips there on how to do 100 routes in 24 hours. But, it is based on 5 years of experience building up to doing over 100 routes for the last two years. Take it with a grain of salt since I am 61 years old and my best send in the comp is only 11a. I have trained differently the past two years since last year I didn't have access to HCR until the week of the comp. It is BS that it will kill your chances at other projects since just look at Sonny Trotter, Tommy Caldwell and Alex Honnold crushing at the HCR the last 3 years and see what they accomplished that following fall season. If you can, the single best thing to do is go to HCR and wire all the routes you can and learn the one-move-wonders and the softest routes. TOUGHEN your fingers!!!


dreday3000


Jul 6, 2011, 7:21 AM
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Re: [kappydane] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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I've done Horseshoe two years in a row. Its a lot of fun but in my experience virtually all the routes at the Ranch are soft. Fun, but very soft.

For training, I would do less bouldering circuits and more laps on moderate routes. I climb low to mid 12s pretty comfortably so to train I would try do all the 11s in the gym one day, and all the 10s another. Worked out to be about 20 to 30 climbs respectively. Served me well.

If you haven't been to Horseshoe before ( I hadn't ) make sure you train for onsight - i.e. get on as many new routes as you can.

Also consider your nutrition. You're going to burn a lot of calories. You can only eat so much GU/Powerbars. Pack a lunch/dinner you can carry with you or leave in your car/tent you can eat at some point.

Have fun, its a blast.


jdgilberg


Jul 6, 2011, 8:27 AM
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Re: [dreday3000] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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Thanks for the replies guys, I did it last year and it was a ton of fun, but I'm trying to improve my results by actually having a training plan. Last year I did 60 routes up to mid range 5.10 and I want to bump that up to 100 routes up to 5.11 or a few of the easy 5.12's that I've previously done. My partner and I were on pace to hit over 100 for the first 9 or 10 hours, but I just ran out of steam over night.

The reason I have been doing circuits instead of routes is that they are already set and I have access to a lot of them and can link several together to change the length. Also I have to climb in the morning since I work in the afternoons/nights, which is the opposite of my climbing partners


(This post was edited by jdgilberg on Jul 6, 2011, 8:29 AM)


dreday3000


Jul 6, 2011, 8:36 AM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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The gimimy 12s are as follows:

Petrified (super super easy for 12)
Space Madness
Spine Tingler
Lavender Eye

If any of those haven't been downgraded, they should be.

420 is ok if you can crimp. Hard if you can't
Egyptian Airbus is pretty easy but go early while you're still fresh to stick the dyno
Corn Grinder isn't bad if you can crimp and/or jump

have fun.


ghisino


Jul 7, 2011, 2:16 AM
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Re: [kappydane] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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kappydane wrote:
Sonny Trotter, Tommy Caldwell and Alex Honnold

of course.
big walls, trad, onsighting/soloing...

i was thinking of bouldering and redpoints on short burly power-endurance routes, as climbs that i consider "objectives" are more often of this kind
(I also practice other sub-disciplines, but with a more relaxed approach...easy day outs well within my comfort zone. I don't have enough balls to project big walls or trad climbs...)

Though i hadn't mentioned that in my experience big volume and onsighting on long face climbs go really well together.
I suppose that's true for trad too, though i don't have enough experience on that (never done anything hard on gear).

In reply to:
crushing at the HCR the last 3 years and see what they accomplished that following fall season.

following to the event he'll have an outstanding foundation for any other training and objective.

It is before the event that he will have to sacrifice some of his strenght and power-endurance...


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jul 7, 2011, 2:22 AM)


mr.tastycakes


Jul 7, 2011, 5:38 AM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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I don't have anything substantial to add, just wanted to say: Badass! Get after it!

I've done a couple "big milage days" with friends just for kicks, but nothing like 24HHH. 100 pitches in a day? Holy shit. Very cool.


kappydane


Jul 8, 2011, 4:10 PM
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Re: [ghisino] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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In all due respect, have you done the 24HHH? Some of your advice is a bit off the mark, in my opinion. Your advice may work for general training but the 24HHH is not a normal endurance competition.

[In the last month before the event you can increase the difficulty and back off the volume accordingly. Drop the bouldering session for a power endurance one (deep pump, long rests) ]
Just the opposite is true. Get your power in first then build your endurance toward the comp. Two weeks before we did a full 12 hour test to dial in our routes and test our fitness. This also toughens your hands and fingers which is critical. Since I was stuck in Vegas training last year, I did a lot of up and down climbing on bouldering routes with little rest in between. This toughened my fingers and built great endurance. I got so I could do 4 laps on some V2's without touching the ground. (admittedly a very soft V2) The previous year where I did 107 routes I did a lot of laps on roped routes in the gym and on one trip to HCR my partner and I did 10 consecutive laps on First Normal Form each (5.9+ and pumpy). So, there are more than one way to build your endurance.

[Full rest in the 3 to 5 days before and carbo loading in the 24 hours before. ]
Very bad advice since you must keep your fingers tough. I keep the training pretty high until a week out then start to taper off on the last two workouts before the comp. I also go out at HCR the day before and do one or two routes just to get my head in the game. Two days out we did a half dozen or so including a few 10's.

[During the event : Drink A LOT, have a carb-based snack and a nap (15-20 minutes?) every 2-3 hours. y opinion.]
If you and your partner are trying to do 100 routes, that equals one of you doing a route every 7 minutes or so for 24 hours straight. There is no time for naps and stopping only makes you stiff and makes it harder to stay focused. Too much high-carp food can spike your blood sugar. It is better to eat light with high nutrition food such as trail mix, bagels with PB, green smoothies (spinach, banana, pineapple, chia seeds). The only energy type drink was a 5hour Energy at about 2am.

My tips on the Horseshoe Hell fb page go into more detail with tips on training, nutrition, and most important, strategy. But, I'm no expert, I have just done this particular competition every year since it started.


igottagetoutside


Jul 9, 2011, 7:46 AM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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Your goal of 100 routes is do-able with the right training and planning! Kappydane has a lot of experience in this comp, and his training advice has helped me exceed my goals every year (my best: 106 routes up to 10d). It sounds like you are on the right track with the physical training, but don't forget about the mental part. You will have to be willing to suffer! Toughen up your fingertips as much as possible! At the end of the comp I usually feel like I could climb more if my hands werent so thrashed. be on the same page as your partner. it is more efficient if you are both climbing mostly the same routes. tweak the little things, they add up. we climb on a 50m rope in the n40, climb the same route twice and pull the belayers side of the rope so we dont have to untie and retie again. we tie in on a bowline followthrough, easy to tie but more importantly easy to untie. pace yourself. take your time on the crux but move quickly through the easy parts. dont get pumped! if you start to get worked, climb some easier routes but dont stop climbing. try to climb all your hardest routes at the beginning. consider if and when you will cross the canyon, it takes a lot of time. DONT WAIT IN LINE! dont waste a lot of time taking your shoes off after every route. the less time you spend on that kind of stuff, the more time you have for actual climbing. of course you need to drink and eat from time to time, dont neglect that. careful what you eat the day before... there are no bathrooms up there! stash some stuff at the crag before game day so you dont have to carry it.... but pay attention to the rules: nobody else can support you. you hafta take it up there yourself ;)
If you're sceptical whether this stuff helps, check out Kappydane's stats: 106 routes up to 11a, 13,120 pts, 21st out of 240 climbers. Not bad for a 61 year old dude. We are not the strongest climbers in this event but our training and strategy serve us well. You are our competition :P but I hope you maximize and most of all, have fun cuz that's what it's all about! Now, GSD and see you at the ranch!
ps: hope we run into you, would love to know how you do... even if you kick our asses! we are 'leather and lace'.


ghisino


Jul 11, 2011, 2:02 AM
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Re: [kappydane] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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Of course not! :D

Just one point : your snacks ARE rich in complex sugars aka carbs, so we agree even if you don't think so.
(bagel!!!. Dried fruit. banana& pineapple...)
(my usual carb rich snacks :
cereal bars. Maltodextrin-based gels. Bread-and-whatever. Warm drink with slow sugar as fructose or agave syrup or honey. Dried fruit)


kappydane


Jul 11, 2011, 6:29 AM
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Re: [ghisino] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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I agree with you that many things I listed for food are carbs but my point was not to hit gels and just carbs and to eat light but often. We didn't eat pizza or burgers or a foot long subway sandwich. Over 24 hours we went through 3 nalgenes of green smoothie, one bagel with PB each, trail mix heavy on nuts, high-protien power bars, apples, G2, and water. A lot of competitors that are going hard cramp up. You must stay hydrated and replace electrolytes. It's easy to forget to eat until it's too late to recover and you either bonk or cramp up. Energy drinks and quick fix gels can only go so far. You need a steady but light supply of food and hydration.


kappydane


Aug 22, 2011, 8:23 PM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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The comp is in a month. I was just checking in to see how your training is progressing? Did the tips help? The most important thing is to be able to recover between hard routes over and over and to climb so efficiently that you avoid any deep pump. Good luck. Look for a team of Leather and Lace and introduce yourself!


jdgilberg


Aug 23, 2011, 8:21 PM
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Re: [kappydane] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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Its going great! Lately I've just been climbing a ton of laps with small rests. I've been able to recover at that pace, so at a slower pace at the comp I should be fine. I fell a lot better at this point than I did last year. I will look for you at the comp and come say hi


ghisino


Aug 24, 2011, 1:52 AM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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can you give a rough idea of the weekly volume you've been making so far and how easy compared to your perceived limit?

i'd also be very interested to know how you will feel in the weeks/months after the comp, especially regarding your ability to train other qualities (strenght, anaerobic endurance).

(i'm curious because the theory says a bunch of things, but in practice few climbers go for months of volume-based training)


jdgilberg


Aug 24, 2011, 8:01 AM
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Re: [ghisino] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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My last few sessions have been about 1000-1500 total feet in around 2 hours. The difficulty has been 5.7-5.11. I structure it so I never get more than a mild pump so there is pretty quick recovery.

I think it will set me up for some really good strength training after the comp. I have still been able to send bouldering projects (up to v7) after only taking a 20 min rest after the endurance workout. I'm hoping the quick boulder sessions will maintain strength while I build endurance


jdgilberg


Sep 16, 2011, 9:12 AM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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Woo, the comp is in one week!! I've got my shoes freshly resoled, I've got a new headlamp, and I am ready to go. Anyone else gonna be there and pumped?!


damienclimber


Sep 16, 2011, 4:16 PM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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jdgilberg wrote:
Woo, the comp is in one week!! I've got my shoes freshly resoled, I've got a new headlamp, and I am ready to go. Anyone else gonna be there and pumped?!

no, but go do an extra 12 hrs for me. good luck!


kappydane


Sep 30, 2011, 3:06 PM
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Re: [jdgilberg] 24HHH training [In reply to]
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How did your training work out? You should have looked me up since I was the only one with a 62 carved in his hair! I think I have come to the conclusion that more power training with short rests works better than tons of laps. Combining that with a lot of cardio made this the best and easiesst 24 I've done and I've done 6 now.


rockclimber1


Oct 2, 2011, 6:06 AM
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On top of doing circuits, I'd add some power endurance at the end of each session - start climbing moderate moves until you can't hold on any more.


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