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Do you target certain finger positions?
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Poll: Do you target certain finger positions?
While training endurance i use only half crimp. 1 / 5%
While training endurance i use only full crimp. 0 / 0%
While training endurance i use only open hand. 5 / 26%
While training endurance i use what ever. 12 / 63%
Random 5th option that makes me feel ahead of the curve 1 / 5%
19 total votes
 

ceebo


Jul 19, 2011, 7:49 AM
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Do you target certain finger positions?
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In the past i have always done endurance in the open hand as much as possible. Recently though i tried to repeat previous endurance drills staying in the half crimp and ended up having to shake out many times as a result. It would seem logical to assume that from the above, open hand has very little pass over to half crimp when it comes to endurance. I'm sorry if that happens to be old news if true, since i see so many people telling to train open hand more, and in effect that is what i have done.

So, a question for training efficiency (and the poll for curiosity). If i continue to do all my endurance in the half crimp position is it likely to pass over into open hand strength?.. as to kill 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jul 19, 2011, 7:52 AM)


Grizvok


Jul 19, 2011, 11:41 AM
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ceebo wrote:
In the past i have always done endurance in the open hand as much as possible. Recently though i tried to repeat previous endurance drills staying in the half crimp and ended up having to shake out many times as a result. It would seem logical to assume that from the above, open hand has very little pass over to half crimp when it comes to endurance. I'm sorry if that happens to be old news if true, since i see so many people telling to train open hand more, and in effect that is what i have done.

So, a question for training efficiency (and the poll for curiosity). If i continue to do all my endurance in the half crimp position is it likely to pass over into open hand strength?.. as to kill 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak.

You actually posted the exact opposite of what is taught in that open hand is supposed to translate (somewhat) to crimp and crimp strength will not translate to open hand.


flesh


Jul 19, 2011, 12:16 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Do you target certain finger positions? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
In the past i have always done endurance in the open hand as much as possible. Recently though i tried to repeat previous endurance drills staying in the half crimp and ended up having to shake out many times as a result. It would seem logical to assume that from the above, open hand has very little pass over to half crimp when it comes to endurance. I'm sorry if that happens to be old news if true, since i see so many people telling to train open hand more, and in effect that is what i have done.

So, a question for training efficiency (and the poll for curiosity). If i continue to do all my endurance in the half crimp position is it likely to pass over into open hand strength?.. as to kill 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak.

Never train repetitive crimping, stay away as much as possible. BAD.


ceebo


Jul 19, 2011, 3:26 PM
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Re: [Grizvok] Do you target certain finger positions? [In reply to]
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Grizvok wrote:
ceebo wrote:
In the past i have always done endurance in the open hand as much as possible. Recently though i tried to repeat previous endurance drills staying in the half crimp and ended up having to shake out many times as a result. It would seem logical to assume that from the above, open hand has very little pass over to half crimp when it comes to endurance. I'm sorry if that happens to be old news if true, since i see so many people telling to train open hand more, and in effect that is what i have done.

So, a question for training efficiency (and the poll for curiosity). If i continue to do all my endurance in the half crimp position is it likely to pass over into open hand strength?.. as to kill 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak.

You actually posted the exact opposite of what is taught in that open hand is supposed to translate (somewhat) to crimp and crimp strength will not translate to open hand.

I can do 45 min endurance drills using open hand and not shake out a single time. When i tried a drill late last week only using half crimp on a sequence i can piss on with open hand i had to shake out regularly. That in my books shows no pass over what so ever.

My aerobic in open hand is and has been for a long time in the mid/late 5.10s minimum and at one point in the 5.11's. I can do laps in open hand alternating between 2 fingers on each hand and still not get pumped. When i tried half crimp i had to resort to using many more holds that put me down to around 5.9 and i was still having to sake out. No amount of holds seemed to make any difference.. i just did not have the endurance in that finger position.

The only explanation i can think of is that because i was on harder routes in open hand (allot of it single pad), in order to stay open hand meant my pinky was not getting used allot of the time. Could a under trained pinky really lead to such a significant drop in half crimp endurance?.

Is their actual research done into open hand pass over?. And, is their research in half crimp pass over to open, if any.

And flesh, I'm not really asking what is the safest here. Open may allow me to climb allot longer in safety.. but with the pass over i have seen to half crimp (or lack of) i would rather find a better balance of the 2. Honestly i have not felt any pass over what so ever.. and i have done a great deal of endurance training in the past and present.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jul 19, 2011, 3:34 PM)


johnwesely


Jul 19, 2011, 5:53 PM
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I imagine the reason that you have to shake out while half crimping is that it is more inefficient. Crimping gives you gains in friction and therefore will allow you to hold onto smaller holds, but it is much harder to maintain because of the leverage involved.


spikeddem


Jul 19, 2011, 6:14 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
I imagine the reason that you have to shake out while half crimping is that it is more inefficient. Crimping gives you gains in friction and therefore will allow you to hold onto smaller holds, but it is much harder to maintain because of the leverage involved.

Agreed.

Also, Ceebo, your "experiment" and your "conclusions" aren't fair. You don't have any initial condition to which you're comparing your end result.

If the question is "Does open-hand training endurance increase crimp endurance too?" then you cannot answer it with "No, because my crimp endurance is less than my open-hand strength." Let's say that yesterday you shook out five times on your easy route while crimping. That may seem like a lot, because you didn't need to shakeout at all when you were climbing it open-handed. Yet, it's entirely possible that before you started training your open-hand strength you would have needed to shakeout 20 times when climbing the same route with in a crimp style.

Although full of possible confounding variables, that result might suggest that there was a relationship.


ceebo


Jul 19, 2011, 7:33 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Do you target certain finger positions? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I imagine the reason that you have to shake out while half crimping is that it is more inefficient. Crimping gives you gains in friction and therefore will allow you to hold onto smaller holds, but it is much harder to maintain because of the leverage involved.

Agreed.

Also, Ceebo, your "experiment" and your "conclusions" aren't fair. You don't have any initial condition to which you're comparing your end result.

If the question is "Does open-hand training endurance increase crimp endurance too?" then you cannot answer it with "No, because my crimp endurance is less than my open-hand strength." Let's say that yesterday you shook out five times on your easy route while crimping. That may seem like a lot, because you didn't need to shakeout at all when you were climbing it open-handed. Yet, it's entirely possible that before you started training your open-hand strength you would have needed to shakeout 20 times when climbing the same route with in a crimp style.

Although full of possible confounding variables, that result might suggest that there was a relationship.

I have plenty of ''set'' climbs that i am able to test progress on.. as in fixed feature climbs indoor and real rock at the crag. My aerobic level has been above these climbs for a long time... if their was any pass over to half crimp i would be able to do those climbs half crimp with no pump. Yet.. my half crimp endurance is not even at their level.. it is lower still.. to an aerobic grade that i cannot even find yet.

Its obvious that my open hand is too far ahead to even accept any pass over to half crimp. 5.8?.. lets not forget how easy that is, and i was still getting pumped. That's not even V0 for god sake.. any lower and it would be crawling.. not climbing. And as i said.. the added holds didn't really make any difference as the finger position was still half crimp, it simply was not the holds.. but the raw physical position.

It could be a unique case, but as far as i can see it either has no pass over even worth mentioning.. or my under trained pinky is reaping havoc. In either case the solution would appear to be ''do more half crimp endurance drills''. I have done about 3 sessions in half crimp since discovering the gap.. and it feels easier every time. Although it looks like i will need to give it a good month before it will significantly close the gap on my open hand.

Their is 1 traverse that i use from time to time. It has a really nice mix of open and half crimp. Usually the most laps i can do on it before gaining significant pump is 2.. sometimes only 1 and a half (and i have a feeling that may be down to my low half crimp training). Im going to use that as a test in about 3 weeks time. Once my half crimp endurance is improved allot.. i will see if it effects the results on that traverse. Judging from how pathetic the half crimping is right now.. i should expect to get at least 3 to 4 laps on that test before serious pump sets in. That would imo be a clear indication.

But unless you have better ideas?, im more than willing to test things out.


Grizvok


Jul 19, 2011, 9:53 PM
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The genius ceebo has figured it out. Let us all crimp 24/7.


flesh


Jul 19, 2011, 10:57 PM
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I don't get the point, it's similar to a chicken or egg argument, which is fine, if your into that sort of thing. However, it your looking for increased crimp endurance and you think it's a weakness, just climb some crimp routes?

Yet I don't suggest this, unless you are a elite climber already 14a plus v12 plus etc and at this level you don't have finger problems, just climb open all the time except when it's not an option. At a comp or on a route outside or boulder, etc.

You will see gains quickly by training crimping repetitively but for most the gains will be far outweighed by the losses due to injuries that never heal back as strong and the time off from the injuries.


jbro_135


Jul 20, 2011, 3:50 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Do you target certain finger positions? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I imagine the reason that you have to shake out while half crimping is that it is more inefficient. Crimping gives you gains in friction and therefore will allow you to hold onto smaller holds, but it is much harder to maintain because of the leverage involved.

Agreed.

Also, Ceebo, your "experiment" and your "conclusions" aren't fair. You don't have any initial condition to which you're comparing your end result.

If the question is "Does open-hand training endurance increase crimp endurance too?" then you cannot answer it with "No, because my crimp endurance is less than my open-hand strength." Let's say that yesterday you shook out five times on your easy route while crimping. That may seem like a lot, because you didn't need to shakeout at all when you were climbing it open-handed. Yet, it's entirely possible that before you started training your open-hand strength you would have needed to shakeout 20 times when climbing the same route with in a crimp style.

Although full of possible confounding variables, that result might suggest that there was a relationship.

I have plenty of ''set'' climbs that i am able to test progress on.. as in fixed feature climbs indoor and real rock at the crag. My aerobic level has been above these climbs for a long time... if their was any pass over to half crimp i would be able to do those climbs half crimp with no pump. Yet.. my half crimp endurance is not even at their level.. it is lower still.. to an aerobic grade that i cannot even find yet.

Its obvious that my open hand is too far ahead to even accept any pass over to half crimp. 5.8?.. lets not forget how easy that is, and i was still getting pumped. That's not even V0 for god sake.. any lower and it would be crawling.. not climbing. And as i said.. the added holds didn't really make any difference as the finger position was still half crimp, it simply was not the holds.. but the raw physical position.

It could be a unique case, but as far as i can see it either has no pass over even worth mentioning.. or my under trained pinky is reaping havoc. In either case the solution would appear to be ''do more half crimp endurance drills''. I have done about 3 sessions in half crimp since discovering the gap.. and it feels easier every time. Although it looks like i will need to give it a good month before it will significantly close the gap on my open hand.

Their is 1 traverse that i use from time to time. It has a really nice mix of open and half crimp. Usually the most laps i can do on it before gaining significant pump is 2.. sometimes only 1 and a half (and i have a feeling that may be down to my low half crimp training). Im going to use that as a test in about 3 weeks time. Once my half crimp endurance is improved allot.. i will see if it effects the results on that traverse. Judging from how pathetic the half crimping is right now.. i should expect to get at least 3 to 4 laps on that test before serious pump sets in. That would imo be a clear indication.

But unless you have better ideas?, im more than willing to test things out.



Fine, but how good was your half-crimp endurance before you started training open-hand endurance? You totally missed spikeddem's point.


ceebo


Jul 20, 2011, 7:10 AM
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jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I imagine the reason that you have to shake out while half crimping is that it is more inefficient. Crimping gives you gains in friction and therefore will allow you to hold onto smaller holds, but it is much harder to maintain because of the leverage involved.

Agreed.

Also, Ceebo, your "experiment" and your "conclusions" aren't fair. You don't have any initial condition to which you're comparing your end result.

If the question is "Does open-hand training endurance increase crimp endurance too?" then you cannot answer it with "No, because my crimp endurance is less than my open-hand strength." Let's say that yesterday you shook out five times on your easy route while crimping. That may seem like a lot, because you didn't need to shakeout at all when you were climbing it open-handed. Yet, it's entirely possible that before you started training your open-hand strength you would have needed to shakeout 20 times when climbing the same route with in a crimp style.

Although full of possible confounding variables, that result might suggest that there was a relationship.

I have plenty of ''set'' climbs that i am able to test progress on.. as in fixed feature climbs indoor and real rock at the crag. My aerobic level has been above these climbs for a long time... if their was any pass over to half crimp i would be able to do those climbs half crimp with no pump. Yet.. my half crimp endurance is not even at their level.. it is lower still.. to an aerobic grade that i cannot even find yet.

Its obvious that my open hand is too far ahead to even accept any pass over to half crimp. 5.8?.. lets not forget how easy that is, and i was still getting pumped. That's not even V0 for god sake.. any lower and it would be crawling.. not climbing. And as i said.. the added holds didn't really make any difference as the finger position was still half crimp, it simply was not the holds.. but the raw physical position.

It could be a unique case, but as far as i can see it either has no pass over even worth mentioning.. or my under trained pinky is reaping havoc. In either case the solution would appear to be ''do more half crimp endurance drills''. I have done about 3 sessions in half crimp since discovering the gap.. and it feels easier every time. Although it looks like i will need to give it a good month before it will significantly close the gap on my open hand.

Their is 1 traverse that i use from time to time. It has a really nice mix of open and half crimp. Usually the most laps i can do on it before gaining significant pump is 2.. sometimes only 1 and a half (and i have a feeling that may be down to my low half crimp training). Im going to use that as a test in about 3 weeks time. Once my half crimp endurance is improved allot.. i will see if it effects the results on that traverse. Judging from how pathetic the half crimping is right now.. i should expect to get at least 3 to 4 laps on that test before serious pump sets in. That would imo be a clear indication.

But unless you have better ideas?, im more than willing to test things out.



Fine, but how good was your half-crimp endurance before you started training open-hand endurance? You totally missed spikeddem's point.

No, i think you are missing the point.. i have never ever made an attempt of only using half crimp in endurance drills. When i was new to it i used a mix of both until i finally just kinda advanced into going with only open hand as it felt much easier. Then after reading open hand was actually ''the best'' to train i was happy to continue. 95% of my endurance has been done in open hand and the pass over to half crimp?.. not even 5.8 aerobic. We are talking about the difficulty of routes that 4 year olds can climb.. wow, great pass over guys!. Their is simply nothing to measure, it is not a pass over as far as i can see.. because i was unable to even establish the aerobic level of the half crimp. Lets assume the aerobic half crimp level was 5.7, if my aerobic open hand was .11c my half crimp would be something like .10a/b from pass over alone (that is comparing the gap of my open now to the half crimp). Do you really think .10a/b half crimp endurance is going to even scratch .13?. And that is assuming the half crimp will even raise to that level.. i'm pretty certain from what i have seen so far it will not.. but even in its best argument.. its still shit.

Is their any science and research behind the endurance open hand pass over claims?. I would like to see the conditions they were tested under.


DouglasHunter


Jul 20, 2011, 2:51 PM
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Ceebo et al, go read some sports science! The effectiveness of isometic training as a function of join angel is a well studied topic with litrature available on the web.

You don't need to speculate, and you don't need to rely on what other clueless climbers have to say on the topic.


ceebo


Mar 29, 2012, 3:43 AM
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Thread revive.

Can anybody point me to climbing spacific info on the open hand pass overs?. I'm interested to learn more on it.

Also, just as a brief question. Is single pad open hand engaging the same amount of pully groups or w/e that two or even three pad may? (or may not?).


T_Nix35


Mar 29, 2012, 10:25 AM
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could you guys explain the difference in a half crimp and a full crimp and same for the open hand. and how are yall training to build enduerance? hangboards? rice buckets? climbing up a route then back down then up a harder route? im looking for some ways to work on my endurance in general.


ceebo


Mar 29, 2012, 11:31 AM
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T_Nix35 wrote:
could you guys explain the difference in a half crimp and a full crimp and same for the open hand. and how are yall training to build enduerance? hangboards? rice buckets? climbing up a route then back down then up a harder route? im looking for some ways to work on my endurance in general.

http://www.8a.nu/...x%3FArticleId%3D4914

That link shows


jbro_135


Mar 30, 2012, 4:26 AM
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T_Nix35 wrote:
could you guys explain the difference in a half crimp and a full crimp and same for the open hand. and how are yall training to build enduerance? hangboards? rice buckets? climbing up a route then back down then up a harder route? im looking for some ways to work on my endurance in general.


Mostly rice buckets for me. I find the passover to climbing to be really good, especially around easter...


T_Nix35


Mar 30, 2012, 10:41 AM
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i love the rice buckets and i dont get the thing about easter other than easter is next week????


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