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ShreddedFingers


Jul 20, 2011, 2:58 PM
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Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm
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So I got one of these bad boys set up at my apartment a couple months ago:

http://www.soillholds.com/iron-palm-moderate

And I've done a lot of reading, especially on here about how you can really injure your fingers if you over train on something like this, especially in beginners.

I don't consider myself a beginner by any means, but I've been climbing seriously for just over a year, about 2-3 times a week, with a couple months off in the winter to play in the snow. The hardest thing I did was a 40' .13a with probably 6+ falls. My projects are more in the .12s for now. Maybe that's sad, but not my point here.

Needless to say the underlying thought of injury has prevented me from using the training board more then once a week. And I've noticed, even the top rung which looks deceivingly pleasant and large, is curved just slightly to make your fingers scream in pain after 10 - 15 reps.

Any suggestions on specific things I should do with it to maximize training potential while avoiding injuries?

Thanks peeps!


sungam


Jul 20, 2011, 5:05 PM
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Re: [ShreddedFingers] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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I would recommend experimenting - carefully.
Listen to your fingers. If there is lasting discomfort or any feeling of something being wrong, it's probably because it is.
Start out easy and gradually increase the intensity.
Making sure you warm up and get stretch (dynamic, not static. Look up the difference if you must) is important. Personally I find that crimping on a hang board is a horrific experience. It really feels like I am fucking something up, but then I hardly ever crimp en route, so whatever.

Make sure you mix it up - Don't always hit the same grip positions on the same holds. Feel free to stagger hands (a pocket with your left and a jug with your right, for example).

Personally I think deadhangs are better then chinning on holds, both from a training perspective and an injury avoidance perspective. Your chinning ability likely isn't your limiting factor. The limiting factor is likely your contact strength, so why water down your contact strength training by chinning at the same time? I also feel like I jerk around when I am chinning, and that doing so stresses my fingers in funny ways which usually would be fine but when they are getting such a slamming from the fingerboard I feel like they are a little more vulnerable then usual.

When I hangboard I usually do repeaters around the area of 10 seconds on, 5 off, 10 on, 5 off, 10 on, 2 minute break.

When hanging, make sure you keep your shoulders tight (don't relax them all the way).

Make sure you give your tendons/sheaths/pullys/whatever plenty of time and nutrition to heal. You can make great gains on a hangboard, but remember that great contact strength is not very useful without good technique. Hangboarding should supplement your climbing schedule, not replace nay part of it.


ShreddedFingers


Jul 20, 2011, 7:45 PM
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Re: [sungam] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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Awesome!!!

This is all great stuff!

I have been experimenting both on the hang board and with dynamic stretching (though I spose the latter is for another thread). I usually do about 5 - 7 chins on each different possible hold, but rarely stagger, and only did dead hangs as warming up...

sungam wrote:
When I hangboard I usually do repeaters around the area of 10 seconds on, 5 off, 10 on, 5 off, 10 on, 2 minute break.

^ This is definitely what I needed and I will be trying this for sure in between my gym day tomorrow and the red river gorge on Saturday.

Thanks a lot!


sungam


Jul 21, 2011, 3:55 AM
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Re: [ShreddedFingers] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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Hah! I am the complete opposite. Chins to warm up, and hangs for the training.
There is some good stuff in Rockprodigy's guide: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ockprodigy__258.html


ShreddedFingers


Jul 26, 2011, 7:56 AM
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Re: [sungam] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
Hah! I am the complete opposite. Chins to warm up, and hangs for the training.
There is some good stuff in Rockprodigy's guide: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ockprodigy__258.html

Thanks again Sungam for your help. That guide is amazing, and I've only read the first half so far.

Also the hanging method is great for training. I'm noticing a much more consistent work out, with even better results.

Do you think I should still work a decent number of chins in there to keep the upper body work up to par also? It feels like hangs don't do as much for arms, etc...


sungam


Jul 26, 2011, 8:05 AM
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Re: [ShreddedFingers] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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I hate on them a lot, but I do plenty of pull-ups. I do them on a bar or on reasonbly good holds, though, for the aforementioned reasons.

Try out front levers as well. Good body tension workout.


ghisino


Jul 27, 2011, 6:27 AM
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Re: [ShreddedFingers] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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ShreddedFingers wrote:
I don't consider myself a beginner by any means, but I've been climbing seriously for just over a year, about 2-3 times a week, with a couple months off in the winter to play in the snow. The hardest thing I did was a 40' .13a with probably 6+ falls. My projects are more in the .12s for now. Maybe that's sad, but not my point here.

OT

classic!!!! LOL!

not in a mean sense but...

please do not use the verb "DO" or any other word that might suggest a send for climbs that you did not lead without falls.

and then you ask us not to consider you a beginner...

(talented beginner, but still a beginner until you learn to talk as a proper climber!)

Wink


ghisino


Jul 27, 2011, 6:39 AM
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Re: [ShreddedFingers] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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btw.

the hangboard is a relatively safe tool as long as you respect some simple rules...


-never hang with 100% straight arms and relaxed shoulders, expecially one armed. It slowly and silently kills elbows and shoulders

-Do not get all the way down to straight arms during pullups. It kills elbows or shouldes too, but in a faster and more noticeable way.
If you feel that you can't control the descent, just let go and jump off.

-be careful when increasing the difficulty.

-never try really hard hangs or pullups in a full crimped position. OK to do just a little of it on easier exercises.

-do not do macho hangboard competitions and/or show offs during parties or stuff like that. If you really have to and can't say no, be sure you do things that are far from your max and try to have something that reminds a warmup.
This one is really hard to follow strictly unless the hangboard is mounted in some obscure cave or garage, or all your friends are non-climbers and/or total punters.
(At least, when you'll do your macho shirtless one-armer to show everyone who's the king, you'll have the added pleasure of knowing that you're being silly in any possible way. Tongue)


-small sessions done often are more effective than a big one done less often and this approach makes more sense on a home-mounted fingerboard than on anything else.
"grease the groove"
http://humanmachine.wordpress.com/2007/06/22/grease-the-groove-for-strength/


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jul 27, 2011, 6:49 AM)


ShreddedFingers


Jul 27, 2011, 10:44 AM
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Re: [ghisino] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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ghisino wrote:

OT

classic!!!! LOL!

not in a mean sense but...

please do not use the verb "DO" or any other word that might suggest a send for climbs that you did not lead without falls.

and then you ask us not to consider you a beginner...

(talented beginner, but still a beginner until you learn to talk as a proper climber!)

Wink

To clarify, I wanted to provide some background so it didn't seem like I thought: "Hey, climbing seems cool I'm buying a hangboard!"

And I am asking no one, especially on here, to not consider me as a beginner. Simply that I don't consider myself one compared to other people I see climbing and climb with.

ghisino wrote:
-never hang with 100% straight arms and relaxed shoulders, expecially one armed. It slowly and silently kills elbows and shoulders

And I hope you enjoy the irony of you suggesting I brush up on my speaking, expecially after that line.

In all seriousness though, thanks for those guidelines. I definitely need to work on keeping my arms slightly bent and being less relaxed in the shoulders during my hangs. It's funny when you think of things so simply, but then you get the hangboard and it's like oh sure I know exactly what I'm doing..............

And don't worry about parties.... It's hidden away in my closet so my landlord can't find it either!! Tongue


ghisino


Jul 28, 2011, 1:19 AM
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Re: [ShreddedFingers] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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ShreddedFingers wrote:

ghisino wrote:
-never hang with 100% straight arms and relaxed shoulders, expecially one armed. It slowly and silently kills elbows and shoulders

And I hope you enjoy the irony of you suggesting I brush up on my speaking, expecially after that line.

no.
english is not my mother language so i might write down things in an odd way without knowing (btw where's the error?)

but as far as "doing" a route, that's the same in every language i know, because it's not really about the language.

It is about other climbers misunderstanding you (missing that "with 6 falls" bit) and 5 minutes after that everybody knows you as the biggest cheater/liar in the country.
(who said climbers are friendly, soulful, relaxed dudes?)

i can't think of one "experienced" climber i know (at any grade, be it 5.10 or 5.14) who wouldn't use a "safer" alternative to say the same thing
(trying, dogging, playing with, checking out, having a look at, etc etc).
And hum, in the worst scenes they wouldn't even talk too much about trying, because "trying too much" makes you a greedy grade-chaser.


But ironically i can think of several climbers with relatively little experience of "the climbing scene" who use the word "do" for everything.

They have a look at something hard-graded for their ability, on toprope, with some assistance from the belayer and several rests on the rope?
The first thing they'll say to their friends/gf/mommy is "hey we went to that crag and i did a 5.1Xx!!!")

(the biggest irony is that one of these climbers was at the wall with me last night, and proved my point right. She telling a friend about how she did a particular route two days before - with one rest, as i knew because i was belaying her.

"No, you didn't do it", i said. "Monday you tried it, tonight you'll do it...warmup properly and then you'll kill it!"
So it was...she eventually did it :) )


ShreddedFingers


Aug 2, 2011, 7:38 AM
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Re: [ghisino] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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I gotcha man, in fact I was never arguing any of those points you already made, less viciously, in your first post.

I think you missed the point of mine, which was simply to say, thanks for the help, I clearly need as much as I can get.

And for future use, it's 'especially.' No x.


jindap


Oct 26, 2011, 8:37 AM
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Re: [ghisino] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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In reply to:
-never hang with 100% straight arms and relaxed shoulders, expecially one armed. It slowly and silently kills elbows and shoulders
curious, i've heard this stated before but have never known the exact reason behind it.

why is it better to keep your shoulders and back muscles slightly tight while dead hanging? why is completely relaxing those muscle groups worse for shoulders and elbows?


(This post was edited by jindap on Oct 26, 2011, 8:44 AM)


ghisino


Oct 26, 2011, 9:35 AM
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Re: [jindap] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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it is quite a complex subject and i'm not 100% sure of the details.
however, the basic explanation of my physio was:

1)A human shoulder is an instable joint by design if you only look at the bones and ligaments, this is why it has such a big range of motion.

2)As it is instable by design it needs something "external" to keep it together and fine-tune your movements, so that the joint operates smoothly, with no cracking/popping.
This is done by your rotator cuff (muscles+tendons)

3)When you hang straight armed you are stretching your rotator cuff in a rather brutal and uncontrolled way.
As a result you can "detune" your unconscious movement and posture patterns (and get inflammations, minor cracking/popping, etc) or, if you really abuse it, severely overstretch the entire cuff, so that your shoulder joint becomes loose and you could dislocate quite easily.


4) By "pulling down" your shoulders when you hang you activate stronger muscles, take some weight off the rotator cuff and avoid stretching it.


for elbows i've been hering a similar story but not nearly as detailed...


jindap


Oct 26, 2011, 9:44 AM
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Re: [ghisino] Fingerboard Training, the Iron Palm [In reply to]
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ghisino wrote:
it is quite a complex subject and i'm not 100% sure of the details.
however, the basic explanation of my physio was:

1)A human shoulder is an instable joint by design if you only look at the bones and ligaments, this is why it has such a big range of motion.

2)As it is instable by design it needs something "external" to keep it together and fine-tune your movements, so that the joint operates smoothly, with no cracking/popping.
This is done by your rotator cuff (muscles+tendons)

3)When you hang straight armed you are stretching your rotator cuff in a rather brutal and uncontrolled way.
As a result you can "detune" your unconscious movement and posture patterns (and get inflammations, minor cracking/popping, etc) or, if you really abuse it, severely overstretch the entire cuff, so that your shoulder joint becomes loose and you could dislocate quite easily.


4) By "pulling down" your shoulders when you hang you activate stronger muscles, take some weight off the rotator cuff and avoid stretching it.


for elbows i've been hering a similar story but not nearly as detailed...
i see, that makes a lot of sense. thanks for taking the time to clarify that for me. i've also told other people to do the same but have never had any concrete answer as to why. i'll paraphrase your answer next time someone asks me! thanks again.


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