|
|
|
|
onrockandice
Jul 19, 2011, 4:30 PM
Post #26 of 46
(7065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2009
Posts: 355
|
jt512 wrote: ...Eldo is in the latter category. I suspect that it is unusual to lower there, and that the expectation would be for the climber to rap. Perhaps this was an element in the accident. Jay
We will never know. The belayer iced up and isn't talking. Cannot remember anything says it's from stress. So it's up to speculation as to exactly what happened. Since the belayer is a friend of those involved it's really hard to press him with any demands or accusations which doesn't seem to fit the spirit of climbing. I suspect though that he may have just seen his last days in 2-man climbing team as a belayer. He may be restricted to group climbs for life...
I'll leave my thoughts out of it. Based on things I have heard (from multiple credible sources) I think there are some hard questions that need asking.
The other day I nearly flossed myself to keep my climber off the ground on a technical start that demanded a belay the moment both feet were off the ground. It was very much a "must not deck" situation immediately because of awful terrain and a guaranteed tumble down steep talus. I guess it's weird to me. I get so gripped when my climber is at the anchors that I am literally locked on to what they are doing visually. If I cannot see them, I'm worse. I won't untie them and 2 firm tugs equals slack and a fully weighted rope for longer than 5 seconds means "lower me".
We know the risks and we are all at fault for not being painstakingly aware of them with each climb in mind. My climbing partner and I came to the same conclusion the other day.
The partnership of rope is a bond as strong as marriage. It can be a great thing but bad communication will ruin a good rope as fast as bad communication will ruin a good marriage.
Communicate, communicate, communicate, then do it one more time mentally while you check your partners knot, harness, helmet (we recently added helmets to our check and you have to state out loud that you do not wish to wear one and you accept the risks before we let you leave the ground).
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 19, 2011, 4:56 PM
Post #27 of 46
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
onrockandice wrote: [W]e recently added helmets to our check and you have to state out loud that you do not wish to wear one and you accept the risks before we let you leave the ground.
Oh, come on.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 19, 2011, 5:04 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
Rocquestar
Jul 20, 2011, 10:02 AM
Post #28 of 46
(6982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 16, 2011
Posts: 14
|
That works for me.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Jul 20, 2011, 11:35 AM
Post #29 of 46
(6969 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
jt512 wrote: onrockandice wrote: [W]e recently added helmets to our check and you have to state out loud that you do not wish to wear one and you accept the risks before we let you leave the ground. Oh, come on. Jay
Kinda depends on how you say it. If you just say, "Gonna wear your helmet?" And the response is, "No, I'm okay," then it's not so far out there. If the response is more like, "I understand and accept the risks associated with not wearing a helmet, including but not limited to rock fall, gear fall, head bumping, bee stings and sunburn, and release and indemnify you, the Belayer (hereafter identified as Belayer) from and against all risk and liability arising from my decision not to wear said helmet," well then, um, yeah.
|
|
|
|
|
patto
Jul 20, 2011, 11:52 AM
Post #30 of 46
(6963 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
What I don't understand is why so many people can simply just dump their weight on the rope without a second thoughte to the consequences. Surely it is an essential part of climbing, not to mention the human nature of self preservation, to ensure that the rope is securely holding your weight before you release your safety.
If you can't look after you own safety in such a simply way then should you really be on lead? Climbing involves a partnership and individual responsibility. These lowering accidents normally involve a failure of both.
I like rappelling because it puts the control in the hands of the person who is most aware of the circumstance and has greatest vested interest in safe conduct. Sure others advocate lowering, but the fact remains that the previous reasons are compelling. Lowering is safe if done correctly. Abseiling is safe it done correctly. But as far as I'm concerned I want to be in charge of my safety.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Jul 20, 2011, 5:18 PM
Post #31 of 46
(6910 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
onrockandice wrote: We will never know. The belayer iced up and isn't talking. Cannot remember anything says it's from stress. So it's up to speculation as to exactly what happened. Since the belayer is a friend of those involved it's really hard to press him with any demands or accusations which doesn't seem to fit the spirit of climbing. I suspect though that he may have just seen his last days in 2-man climbing team as a belayer. He may be restricted to group climbs for life...
a person who takes someone off belay without it being asked for and drops that person should not be belaying ... period ...
there are some smaller mistakes that are more understandable (a tad too much or little slack, short roping, etc...) that everyone has done at least a few times in their life ...
but something big like that where there is a complete failure ... is inexcusable, especially if the belayer cant come clean and learn
whenever i know someone who is climbing with such a person ... i let them know of the mistake ... not out of spite or the need to put down that person ... but because its a safety issue ...
|
|
|
|
|
onrockandice
Jul 21, 2011, 5:11 PM
Post #32 of 46
(6814 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2009
Posts: 355
|
jt512 wrote: Oh, come on. Jay
If you are new to climbing with us and want to go on lead that's how it goes. If you have been with us for a bit the shake-out goes like this... [Note: This only applies to lead climbing. Our crag is run-out bolts are typically 10 to 15 feet apart. If it's top-rope then we skip the helmet bit.]
Want your helmet?
No.
K.
{see reason at bottom}
If you are a new climber to our group.
C=climber, B=belayer
B: Want your helmet?
C: No.
B: Okay, that's fine but you understand the risks?
C: Yeah.
B: K.
REASON: We ask for one simple reason, people forget. Pretty much every time I climb I forget to put on my helmet. I want to wear it but I forget. So that bit of dialog is priceless to me. That's mainly why.
|
|
|
|
|
onrockandice
Jul 21, 2011, 5:16 PM
Post #33 of 46
(6812 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2009
Posts: 355
|
j_ung wrote: Kinda depends on how you say it. If you just say, "Gonna wear your helmet?" And the response is, "No, I'm okay," then it's not so far out there. If the response is more like, "I understand and accept the risks associated with not wearing a helmet, including but not limited to rock fall, gear fall, head bumping, bee stings and sunburn, and release and indemnify you, the Belayer (hereafter identified as Belayer) from and against all risk and liability arising from my decision not to wear said helmet," well then, um, yeah.
Yeah, you nailed it. For me it's more about forgetfullness. On lead I want to wear a helmet PERIOD. The other day whilst on lead I took a nice pendulum (on 12' of rope) and came into contact with a basalt column. I managed to hit feet first and it was a solid hit. I shudder to think what would have happened had I bonked head first.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 21, 2011, 5:37 PM
Post #34 of 46
(6802 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
onrockandice wrote: jt512 wrote: Oh, come on. Jay If you are new to climbing with us and want to go on lead that's how it goes. If you have been with us for a bit the shake-out goes like this... [Note: This only applies to lead climbing. Our crag is run-out bolts are typically 10 to 15 feet apart. If it's top-rope then we skip the helmet bit.] Want your helmet? No. K. {see reason at bottom} If you are a new climber to our group. C=climber, B=belayer B: Want your helmet? C: No. B: Okay, that's fine but you understand the risks? C: Yeah. B: K. REASON: We ask for one simple reason, people forget. Pretty much every time I climb I forget to put on my helmet. I want to wear it but I forget. So that bit of dialog is priceless to me. That's mainly why.
Now, you claim that it's just a reminder in case the climber forgot to put on his helmet, but that does not describe the red comment. What's the point in asking a patronizing question like that? It strikes me as being purely rhetorical anyway. I'll bet no one has ever seriously answered "no."
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 21, 2011, 5:39 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
onrockandice
Jul 21, 2011, 6:02 PM
Post #35 of 46
(6787 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2009
Posts: 355
|
New climber, on lead. We know nothing about him.
I can expand our whole thing if you wish. It's not legalistic like what you think. My first comment said, "We recently added helmets... and something about you don't leave the ground without acknowledging the fact. It makes sense especially for me where I forget my helmet all the time.
If you are a new to the group climber, you want to lead and you want to lead without a helmet. We just do our best to make sure you are the real deal. Of course they could lie or whatever...
It's not legalistic. It's informal and it's for safety.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 21, 2011, 6:25 PM
Post #36 of 46
(6780 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
onrockandice wrote: New climber, on lead. We know nothing about him.
Then why are you climbing with him?
In reply to: I can expand our whole thing if you wish. It's not legalistic like what you think. My first comment said, "We recently added helmets... and something about you don't leave the ground without acknowledging the fact. It makes sense especially for me where I forget my helmet all the time.
With each post you further downplay the useless, insulting, patronizing part. In your first post on the subject you said that if the climber doesn't want to wear a helmet that "you have to state out loud that . . . you accept the risks before we let you leave the ground." In your second post you claimed that this requirement only applies to new climbers in your group, and in your last post you pretend that this requirement doesn't exist at all.
I can understand why you might include helmets in a checklist. I cannot understand why you would require your partner to verbally acknowledge the risk of climbing without a helmet. What is the point of this? And what's up with "before we let you leave the ground"? What are you doing: rock climbing with adults or running a summer camp?
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
onrockandice
Jul 21, 2011, 6:30 PM
Post #37 of 46
(6777 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2009
Posts: 355
|
Guilty
JT512: 50 - ME: 0
Game Over
Victor: JT
Loser: Me 
Patronizing or Insulting was never my intent. I apologize and will abdicate at this point before I dig a deeper hole. None of this was meant to be condescending. I am sorry if I came across that way.
|
|
|
|
|
patto
Jul 21, 2011, 8:21 PM
Post #38 of 46
(6745 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
Onrockandice. Initially, the choice of phrasing and your insistence on strict adherence does seem a little over the top.
However you have explained you reasons well and at the end of the day you really don't need to justify yourself to us.
It seems some people around here just like arguing with others. (even more than me!  )
|
|
|
|
|
onrockandice
Jul 21, 2011, 9:47 PM
Post #39 of 46
(6724 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2009
Posts: 355
|
onrockandice wrote: ... (we recently added helmets to our check and you have to state out loud that you do not wish to wear one and you accept the risks before we let you leave the ground).
I really don't see strict adherence anywhere in what I said.
B: Want to put your helmet on?
C: Nope.
B: You sure? You are on lead, you've not climbed with me before...
C: Yeah, I'm sure.
B: On belay.
When I wrote that I wasn't expecting it to be pedanticly scrutinized. I honestly have no clue why something that makes the experience safer would be scrutinized. Once questioned I tried to add more detail and I certainly wasn't wanting to be flippant or disrespectful. Then those comments were dissected. {Repeat}. Finally it was, "Surrender" or be caught up in an argument that was just for the sake of arguement. Nobody was benefitting except maybe JT. He's very precise about grammer, structure, implied meaning, expressed meaning, etc...
I have no desire to resist and argue nor to be entrapped by anything I've said. Thanks for your comments though. I'm just not any good at arguing at all. It's a skill I'd rather not develop any further than I have.
We are learning and we are improving constantly. What we did last week me might not be what we do this week. It's all good to me. I appreciate this place a lot and don't want to wear out my welcome.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Jul 21, 2011, 9:57 PM
Post #40 of 46
(6720 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
welcome to rc.com ... if you dont do as the "experts" say ... youll be a dead gumbie in no time ... or called an idiot
|
|
|
|
|
onrockandice
Jul 21, 2011, 10:06 PM
Post #41 of 46
(6717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2009
Posts: 355
|
I think we should discuss etiquette at the dinner table now. What's the small fork for?
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jul 21, 2011, 11:23 PM
Post #42 of 46
(6694 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
patto wrote: What I don't understand is why so many people can simply just dump their weight on the rope without a second thought to the consequences.
Trained repetitiously to do so by sport climbing, perhaps...? I mean, what's different about weighting the rope at the anchor versus any other place on the climb?
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Jul 28, 2011, 12:28 PM
Post #45 of 46
(6517 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
j_ung wrote: onrockandice wrote: I think we should discuss etiquette at the dinner table now. What's the small fork for? Combing my butt hair?
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Jul 29, 2011, 2:24 AM
Post #46 of 46
(6450 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
I almost always rappel and tell my belayer that on the ground before I climb. I do that so my belayer can immediately go do something else when we are done and I feel more in control of the situation. A lot of the places we climb have loud rivers nearby, so this keeps communication to a minimum.
I'll have my belayer lower me if I have to clean an overhanging route on the other hand. Trying to clean something like that on rappel is risky.
|
|
|
|
|
|
