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Redundancy on sliding x
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deplanche


Jul 27, 2011, 11:17 AM
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Redundancy on sliding x
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Hi there,

As I was browsing around for solutions to make a sliding-x redundant on a two bolts anchor used for top-roping, I came across this thing :

http://www.flickr.com/...et-72157594271011112

The guy simply adds one sling on each bolt, clipping them in the master point. I can'T decide if that makes sense or not. Would the sliding of the master point be impaired by the backup sling on its opposite side ? Is this a stupid solution ?

Thanks,


(This post was edited by deplanche on Jul 27, 2011, 11:21 AM)


johnwesely


Jul 27, 2011, 11:23 AM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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deplanche wrote:
Hi there,

As I was browsing around for solutions to make a sliding-x redundant on a two bolts anchor used for top-roping, I came across this thing :

http://www.flickr.com/...et-72157594271011112

The guy simply adds one sling on each bolt, clipping them in the master point. I can'T decide if that makes sense or not. Would the sliding of the master point be impaired by the backup sling on its opposite side ? Is this a stupid solution ?

Thanks,

It won't kill you.


TarHeelEMT


Jul 27, 2011, 11:49 AM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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Like he said, it won't kill you.

If you're really worried about redundancy, make the sliding X with two slings instead of one. Any time the sliding X is in play, though, I recommend the use of limiter knots to prevent a ton of extension (this also adds redundancy in case a single strand breaks).


JimTitt


Jul 27, 2011, 12:05 PM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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If you think one of the bolts will save your ass if the other fails then why use the sliding x in the first place? Just go straight to redundancy.


notapplicable


Jul 27, 2011, 12:21 PM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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It seems awfully cluttered up when there are so many better solutions.


deplanche


Jul 27, 2011, 12:33 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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In reply to:
If you think one of the bolts will save your ass if the other fails then why use the sliding x in the first place? Just go straight to redundancy.

Sorry I don't get it. Are you saying the sliding-x is useful only when one of the anchor bolt is suspicious ? I thought its purpose was to equalize the load as the direction of the pull shifts. Isn't that something you'd want independently of your trust in the bolts themselves ?

And what would be "going straight to redundancy " ?


(This post was edited by deplanche on Jul 27, 2011, 12:34 PM)


ENARE


Jul 27, 2011, 1:25 PM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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deplanche wrote:
Hi there,

As I was browsing around for solutions to make a sliding-x redundant on a two bolts anchor used for top-roping, I came across this thing :

http://www.flickr.com/...et-72157594271011112

The guy simply adds one sling on each bolt, clipping them in the master point. I can'T decide if that makes sense or not. Would the sliding of the master point be impaired by the backup sling on its opposite side ? Is this a stupid solution ?

Thanks,

It looks fine. I have used this type of system when the space and time permitted but it would be a lot of gear to haul up on a climb depending on what you were doing.


rtwilli4


Jul 27, 2011, 1:41 PM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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I almost always use two slings when belaying with a sliding X, one nylon and one of the 10mil dyneema slings of the same length.

If I ever have any reason to believe that the bolts aren't bomber I try to place extra gear and use the climbing rope, equalized with an overhand knot. This puts a bit less force on your anchor than a simple static sling. If there is a ledge, I'll sit and belay directly off my harness and keep the rope tight so that I can hold a fall with my body weight and not the anchor.

But yea, sliding X w/ 2 slings is always best for me when there are two good bolts. I rarely use limiter knots because like I said, if I'm worried about a bolt blowing I'm not using a sliding X.


JimTitt


Jul 27, 2011, 1:51 PM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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deplanche wrote:
In reply to:
If you think one of the bolts will save your ass if the other fails then why use the sliding x in the first place? Just go straight to redundancy.

Sorry I don't get it. Are you saying the sliding-x is useful only when one of the anchor bolt is suspicious ? I thought its purpose was to equalize the load as the direction of the pull shifts. Isn't that something you'd want independently of your trust in the bolts themselves ?

And what would be "going straight to redundancy " ?

I said the exact opposite, when only one bolt is suspicious then just use the other one and clip the suspicious one as a back-up (redundancy). Equalising is then purposeless.

When both are suspicious then think again about the wisdom of toproping off them.


ensonik


Jul 27, 2011, 8:02 PM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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If you're going to have that type of mess up there, you might as well get 20 feet of cord and learn to rig a quad. It will take you all of 15 seconds to setup and you won't think about it twice. On 2 bolts, it's hard to beat.


Rudmin


Jul 27, 2011, 8:43 PM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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A sliding X with limiter knots is pretty much the go-to bolt anchor for most people I know. Usually it's tied with a single double length sling. It provides redundancy against any single failure and tied correctly, gives very little extension in the unlikely case of a single bolt failure.

If you want to make it slide a bit smoother, tie the limiter knots so that one strand of the x is slightly shorter than the other. That strand will take the load and not bind up against the other strand.

In close second place would be two single length slings, one clipped to each bolt.


healyje


Jul 27, 2011, 11:03 PM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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In all my years of climbing I've been content to just use two draws with the biner gates the rope is through in opposition. But if you want to get super-burly there is always John Long's Quad setup:

http://www.youtube.com/...ture=player_embedded


mikebee


Jul 29, 2011, 2:48 AM
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Re: [healyje] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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Another vote for the quad if it's a climb you'll be TRing a lot.
If it's just for the lower off until your buddy does the next lead and cleans it, I just used opposed draws.


mikebarter387


Aug 9, 2011, 11:04 AM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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What little I know on the subject.

http://youtu.be/zDXvI18p140


Stone0826


Dec 16, 2012, 11:59 AM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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I normally setup a sliding x like this. It's redundant, self equalizing, and a short extension. I have it pre setup and shoulder sling it for multi pitch climbs. It's best to buy some cord and make it at home, dress it up nice, ensure its as equalized as possible and throw it in your bag. When you get to the crag pull it out hook it up and go.
Attachments: image.jpg (70.4 KB)


Syd


Dec 16, 2012, 12:13 PM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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I've used a double sliding X to make it fully redundant but it makes it messy and bulky.


Stone0826


Dec 16, 2012, 10:02 PM
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Re: [Syd] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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I agree, it's a mess. That's why I use the setup that I posted. The majority of the pressure is placed on bend at the carabiner so I just threw a figure 8 on a bight on each end & it's bit more comforting. (with nylon only of course)


dac33


Dec 8, 2013, 3:30 AM
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Re: [deplanche] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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The trouble is that the sliding-x doesn't work.

1. It is only of use if neither of the bolts can handle the load by itself (otherwise an overhand would be fine).

2. If (1) is true then the weaker bolt will still fail unless it can handle at least half the load.

This a very rare set of circumstances.


USnavy


Dec 10, 2013, 2:38 AM
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Re: [Stone0826] Redundancy on sliding x [In reply to]
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Stone0826 wrote:
I normally setup a sliding x like this. It's redundant, self equalizing, and a short extension. I have it pre setup and shoulder sling it for multi pitch climbs. It's best to buy some cord and make it at home, dress it up nice, ensure its as equalized as possible and throw it in your bag. When you get to the crag pull it out hook it up and go.
The anchor in the photo is called an alpine equalett (however you spell it).


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