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northcave


Aug 3, 2011, 8:51 AM
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Can you actually increase finger strength?
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Ok so there is a small wall near me i go to train finger strength because it is just crimpy little feckers all the way along.

However, it doesn't matter how much finger work i do they never ache like forearms do. I mean the physiology of it suggests that muscle ache when they are repairing and building up. Since fingers never ache am I actually wasting my f'ing time?


spikeddem


Aug 3, 2011, 8:54 AM
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Fingers don't have muscles in them . . . Your tendons can be trained to withstand higher forces, but they themselves won't help you pull harder.


spikeddem


Aug 3, 2011, 8:54 AM
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sungam


Aug 3, 2011, 9:10 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
Fingers don't have muscles in them . . . Your tendons can be trained to withstand higher forces, but they themselves won't help you pull harder.
Yeah, the muscles that are used to control your fingers in climbing are in the fore arms. That is why they get burnt out.


northcave


Aug 3, 2011, 9:16 AM
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So crimpy bouldering that doesn't burn out my forearms is a waste of time if I'm just looking to train?


sungam


Aug 3, 2011, 9:31 AM
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northcave wrote:
So crimpy bouldering that doesn't burn out my forearms is a waste of time if I'm just looking to train?
Depends on what you are looking to train. Read Rockprodigy's "the making of a rockprodigy" in the article section, I think it clearly explains the difference between hypertrophy, recruitment, power endurance, etc.


aerili


Aug 3, 2011, 9:41 AM
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The tendons in your fingers are the ends of muscles. While they don't actively contract (like muscles do), tendons can and do store energy that contributes to force production. And as mentioned, tendons remodel themselves in order to get "tougher" and adapt to higher loads placed upon them.

Training crimps still works the muscles and tendons (you wouldn't be holding on if it didn't), but they place more stress upon the pulleys, a passive "restraint" tissue around the tendons, if you will.

It's not a waste of time but I would be careful in how much crimp training you do since injury potential is high.


jt512


Aug 3, 2011, 12:03 PM
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aerili wrote:
[T]endons can and do store energy that contributes to force production.

Okay, now I really need a citation.

Jay


dynosore


Aug 3, 2011, 12:12 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
Fingers don't have muscles in them . . . Your tendons can be trained to withstand higher forces, but they themselves won't help you pull harder.

Fingers most certainly do have muscles in them.

OP, be patient. It takes a long time to build finger strength, likes months and years.


spikeddem


Aug 3, 2011, 12:25 PM
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dynosore wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Fingers don't have muscles in them . . . Your tendons can be trained to withstand higher forces, but they themselves won't help you pull harder.

Fingers most certainly do have muscles in them.

OP, be patient. It takes a long time to build finger strength, likes months and years.

Finger strength does not take months and years to build. The capability of tendons to handle increased loads, sure, but not the pulling strength of fingers. There are muscles in the hand, but not the fingers. Not sure why you think otherwise on any of these points.


serpico


Aug 3, 2011, 1:13 PM
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jt512 wrote:
aerili wrote:
[T]endons can and do store energy that contributes to force production.

Okay, now I really need a citation.

Jay

Tendons are elastic so once they're stretched under tension from the muscle they have stored energy. One of the adaptations from strength training is increased tendon stiffness so that muscle force is more readily transferred to the finger.


serpico


Aug 3, 2011, 1:17 PM
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northcave wrote:
However, it doesn't matter how much finger work i do they never ache like forearms do. I mean the physiology of it suggests that muscle ache when they are repairing and building up. Since fingers never ache am I actually wasting my f'ing time?

As already stated by others the muscles that move your fingers are in your forearms, but muscle soreness is no measure of whether you've had a good workout or not.


aerili


Aug 3, 2011, 1:26 PM
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Not actual literature, but it describes the concept of tendon stiffness. It is measured in N/m, just like springs.

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/...e-tendon-complex.htm

This elastic tendon recoil is what is behind the concept of plyometrics. It's how we are able to run for more than a few steps at a time. It's partly the theory behind why static stretching may inhibit power production.



Someone else said there are muscles in the fingers. All intrinsic muscles of the fingers terminate near the base of the fingers for the most part. The lumbrical muscles cross just above the metacarpal joint (base of the finger) and then attach. Otherwise no actual muscle BELLIES exist in the fingers, only tendons.

Also, there is a lot of new research that shows that some tendons in the body remodel and adapt just as quickly as muscles.


(This post was edited by aerili on Aug 3, 2011, 1:30 PM)


jt512


Aug 3, 2011, 1:35 PM
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aerili wrote:
Not actual literature, but it describes the concept of tendon stiffness. It is measured in N/m, just like springs.

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/...e-tendon-complex.htm

That's interesting I hadn't been aware of that.

Jay


dynosore


Aug 3, 2011, 2:43 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
dynosore wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Fingers don't have muscles in them . . . Your tendons can be trained to withstand higher forces, but they themselves won't help you pull harder.

Fingers most certainly do have muscles in them.

OP, be patient. It takes a long time to build finger strength, likes months and years.

Finger strength does not take months and years to build. The capability of tendons to handle increased loads, sure, but not the pulling strength of fingers. There are muscles in the hand, but not the fingers. Not sure why you think otherwise on any of these points.

Maybe because I had a basic anatomy class? There are muscles between fingers, and yes, in them. What do you think that meaty stuff is on the underside of your fingers. Geez......

http://www.wheelessonline.com/..._muscles_of_the_hand
There are over a dozen muscles in the hand.

You are also wrong in your assertion that it doesn't take months and even years to build the strength in your hands.

Please stick to what you know.


(This post was edited by dynosore on Aug 3, 2011, 2:46 PM)


sungam


Aug 3, 2011, 3:06 PM
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dynosore wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
dynosore wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Fingers don't have muscles in them . . . Your tendons can be trained to withstand higher forces, but they themselves won't help you pull harder.

Fingers most certainly do have muscles in them.

OP, be patient. It takes a long time to build finger strength, likes months and years.

Finger strength does not take months and years to build. The capability of tendons to handle increased loads, sure, but not the pulling strength of fingers. There are muscles in the hand, but not the fingers. Not sure why you think otherwise on any of these points.

Maybe because I had a basic anatomy class? There are muscles between fingers, and yes, in them. What do you think that meaty stuff is on the underside of your fingers. Geez......

http://www.wheelessonline.com/..._muscles_of_the_hand
There are over a dozen muscles in the hand.

You are also wrong in your assertion that it doesn't take months and even years to build the strength in your hands.

Please stick to what you know.
Yes, there are lots of little muscles in your hand. None of those really have anything to do with "finger strength" as relivent to climbing, though, do they?

And if it took you "months or even years" to see improvements in your finger strength... Well then you train like a moron.


spikeddem


Aug 3, 2011, 3:35 PM
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sungam wrote:
dynosore wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
dynosore wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Fingers don't have muscles in them . . . Your tendons can be trained to withstand higher forces, but they themselves won't help you pull harder.

Fingers most certainly do have muscles in them.

OP, be patient. It takes a long time to build finger strength, likes months and years.

Finger strength does not take months and years to build. The capability of tendons to handle increased loads, sure, but not the pulling strength of fingers. There are muscles in the hand, but not the fingers. Not sure why you think otherwise on any of these points.

Maybe because I had a basic anatomy class? There are muscles between fingers, and yes, in them. What do you think that meaty stuff is on the underside of your fingers. Geez......

http://www.wheelessonline.com/..._muscles_of_the_hand
There are over a dozen muscles in the hand.

You are also wrong in your assertion that it doesn't take months and even years to build the strength in your hands.

Please stick to what you know.
Yes, there are lots of little muscles in your hand. None of those really have anything to do with "finger strength" as relivent to climbing, though, do they?

And if it took you "months or even years" to see improvements in your finger strength... Well then you train like a moron.

+1


MarcelS


Aug 4, 2011, 7:25 AM
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sungam wrote:
And if it took you "months or even years" to see improvements in your finger strength... Well then you train like a moron.
Hey sungam
Now of course I have seen improvement in my finger strength since I started climbing, but the only training I did for that was... well climb. Twice a week, sometimes three. Now I do not know if that is training like a moron Cool (probably not, as I did see improvement after all!!), but I would like to know what I can do more. Any advice?

(and yeah the reference to moron was a joke Tongue)


sungam


Aug 4, 2011, 7:35 AM
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MarcelS wrote:
sungam wrote:
And if it took you "months or even years" to see improvements in your finger strength... Well then you train like a moron.
Hey sungam
Now of course I have seen improvement in my finger strength since I started climbing, but the only training I did for that was... well climb. Twice a week, sometimes three. Now I do not know if that is training like a moron Cool (probably not, as I did see improvement after all!!), but I would like to know what I can do more. Any advice?

(and yeah the reference to moron was a joke Tongue)
Nah, the moron comment wasn't for real. He was snippy with hit "I took a basic anatomy class" so I was snippy back. Pathetic, I know, but meh.

You gotta be carefull not to overdo the training, but if you want to improve your contact strength then there is a wide range of training techniques.
These range from super specific 3 second max rep hangs to simply structuring your climbing sessions in a training oriented fashion. It's hard to say what would work best for you.

There are a fair few books on training out there, "The Self Coached Climber" is a very popular one.

How often do you climb? Indoor or out? Do you have easy access to a climbing gym or a convinient and extensive bouldering area?


MarcelS


Aug 4, 2011, 7:50 AM
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sungam wrote:
There are a fair few books on training out there, "The Self Coached Climber" is a very popular one.
Yes I definitely am going to order that book!

sungam wrote:
How often do you climb? Indoor or out? Do you have easy access to a climbing gym or a convinient and extensive bouldering area?
At the moment I climb twice a week in the gym (mostly indoor, with good weather the outdoor wall), where I do have a monthly subscription (so I could go daily if I wanted to put my relationship at stake Cool). It is 15 minutes from where I live, so occasionally I go for a third time, like in weekends or so. They do have a small boulder area as well.

Outdoor is a bit less easy, I try to go a couple of times a year for a weekend or so, but there are simply no rocks within short distance. Since the gf does not climb, I can only climb that much without her getting upset that climbing gets more attention then she does Wink)


sungam


Aug 4, 2011, 8:00 AM
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If you are getting the SCC then it's kinda a waste for me to give you a half-assed rundown on training. So I'll just give you this: warm up, build yourself up to routes at your limit, then try harder ones. Give each burn on each route 110%. Think about your technique, it isn't all in the guns, but try hard.
Consider taking 1 session a week for routes and one for bouldering (if the bouldering area is good).


MarcelS


Aug 4, 2011, 2:52 PM
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sungam wrote:
If you are getting the SCC then it's kinda a waste for me to give you a half-assed rundown on training. So I'll just give you this: warm up, build yourself up to routes at your limit, then try harder ones. Give each burn on each route 110%. Think about your technique, it isn't all in the guns, but try hard.
Consider taking 1 session a week for routes and one for bouldering (if the bouldering area is good).

Well after I read this comment, I decided to order the damn book right away Cool Shipping from the UK so I will have to wait for a bit, but looking forward to the content, as I have seen it mentioned countless times on this site.

What I normally do is warm up on 2 easy routes (5.8-5.9), and then start with routes at the top of my ability. Always try at least 1 or 2 routes that I know I cannot climb out yet. This evening I finally finished a 5.10c that ends with a few meters very strong overhanging route (like 45 degrees or so), where the last pull was too hard for me the last few tries. the 5.11a I tried after that was technically too much of a challenge but is next on my wishlist!

Anyway thanks for your input, quite friendly too for a Scotsman Tongue


I_do


Aug 4, 2011, 11:27 PM
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MarcelS wrote:
sungam wrote:
If you are getting the SCC then it's kinda a waste for me to give you a half-assed rundown on training. So I'll just give you this: warm up, build yourself up to routes at your limit, then try harder ones. Give each burn on each route 110%. Think about your technique, it isn't all in the guns, but try hard.
Consider taking 1 session a week for routes and one for bouldering (if the bouldering area is good).

Well after I read this comment, I decided to order the damn book right away Cool Shipping from the UK so I will have to wait for a bit, but looking forward to the content, as I have seen it mentioned countless times on this site.

What I normally do is warm up on 2 easy routes (5.8-5.9), and then start with routes at the top of my ability. Always try at least 1 or 2 routes that I know I cannot climb out yet. This evening I finally finished a 5.10c that ends with a few meters very strong overhanging route (like 45 degrees or so), where the last pull was too hard for me the last few tries. the 5.11a I tried after that was technically too much of a challenge but is next on my wishlist!

Anyway thanks for your input, quite friendly too for a Scotsman Tongue

Just out of curiousity what gym do you climb at?


MarcelS


Aug 4, 2011, 11:59 PM
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Ayers Rock in Zoetermeer, 15 minutes from home. Though I do try to visit other gyms too when time allows me.


I_do


Aug 5, 2011, 2:00 AM
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MarcelS wrote:
Ayers Rock in Zoetermeer, 15 minutes from home. Though I do try to visit other gyms too when time allows me.

Ah, I've never been there, I normally climb in Utrecht, Bussum, Thea and Monk. Ayers any good?

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