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Learner


Jul 19, 2011, 3:34 PM
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Positive Transfer from ANAEROBIC to AEROBIC Endurance?
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If the development of anaerobic endurance produces improvement in aerobic endurance as well, why not train only anaerobic endurance?


(This post was edited by Learner on Jul 19, 2011, 3:34 PM)


spikeddem


Jul 19, 2011, 3:38 PM
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Re: [Learner] Positive Transfer from ANAEROBIC to AEROBIC Endurance? [In reply to]
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Learner wrote:
If the development of anaerobic endurance produces improvement in aerobic endurance as well, why not train only anaerobic endurance?

Anaerobic endurance has a limit. Also, training weaknesses is important.

What you train is also dependent on your goals.

This is all in those books you're constantly repping, you know.


ceebo


Jul 19, 2011, 4:02 PM
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http://www.markallenonline.com/maoArticles.aspx?AID=4

I found that a very interesting. I just don't know if the heart rate subtractions would be right for climbing. Anybody?.


Learner


Jul 19, 2011, 4:34 PM
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spikeddem wrote:

Anaerobic endurance has a limit. Also, training weaknesses is important.

What you train is also dependent on your goals.

What is the evidence that improvement in anaerobic endurance has a limit?


(This post was edited by Learner on Jul 19, 2011, 4:36 PM)


spikeddem


Jul 19, 2011, 4:55 PM
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Learner wrote:
spikeddem wrote:

Anaerobic endurance has a limit. Also, training weaknesses is important.

What you train is also dependent on your goals.

What is the evidence that improvement in anaerobic endurance has a limit?

I already told you where to find it.


ceebo


Jul 19, 2011, 5:04 PM
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Learner wrote:
spikeddem wrote:

Anaerobic endurance has a limit. Also, training weaknesses is important.

What you train is also dependent on your goals.

What is the evidence that improvement in anaerobic endurance has a limit?

I guess im wrong (again) but the way i understood it.. maximum strength directly effects the amount of gains you can make in both aerobic and anaerobic. As in, you can never have an aerobic or anaerobic grade level that will pass your strength limit. Anaerobic puts you on grades far closer to you maximum strength so i assume it diminishes far quicker in returns.. and can not see any more significant increase until maximum strength is increased.


flesh


Jul 19, 2011, 11:54 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Positive Transfer from ANAEROBIC to AEROBIC Endurance? [In reply to]
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Some weird questions here. Use your imagination, if you always climb aerobic, will you get stronger? Yes, very slowly. If you always climb anerobic, will you get stronger, yes, faster than by training aerobic. If you train pure power will you get stronger, yes, this is the fastest way.

If you can cruise the crux of a route, how long could it possibly take to redpoint it? Assuming it's not a pure resistance route, most are not, it would happen very quickly.

If you struggle with individual moves, and more than one of them, it's going to be awhile before you'll send.

The reason one wouldn't only train anaerobic is because sometimes you should be training pure power or simply because you need more aerobic to climb el capitan , your new route project, etc.

I'll add that I don't believe that any climber in the world is close to their limit in any form of strength. Maybe sharma or ondra etc. Sharma is closer to his limit, due to his body type, than ondra is right now. Most of us will die or get serious injury long before we find out what our muscles and mind are capable of. This is why I stress the importance of taking into account what will cause injury every time you climb and think about your climbing progress over a ten year period vs what will get you results RIGHT NOW.

Also, you need to simplify all these things in your mind or if you will adopt a global belief about these things your try to sort out in your head.

Think of a way that makes sense to you to sum up everything in this thread, including your question, into one or two sentences to hold in your memory. Keep it simple.


(This post was edited by flesh on Jul 20, 2011, 9:58 AM)


damienclimber


Jul 20, 2011, 5:46 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Positive Transfer from ANAEROBIC to AEROBIC Endurance? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
http://www.markallenonline.com/maoArticles.aspx?AID=4

I found that a very interesting. I just don't know if the heart rate subtractions would be right for climbing. Anybody?.

U selling books here?
I'm not telling you. No need for you noes !


ghisino


Jul 25, 2011, 7:37 AM
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Re: [Learner] Positive Transfer from ANAEROBIC to AEROBIC Endurance? [In reply to]
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I guess you're right in your implicit suggestion that aerobic climbing is a waste of time (at least for some climbers), but for the wrong reasons.

some interesting reading below. Especially these two pages but also others on the same blog.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-part-5-interval-training-part-2.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-summing-up-part-2.html


on another note : in at least a couple of interviews patxi usobiaga says that he starts his training season with a low intensity-high volume phase (aerobic training...all-day climbing at boringly low grades for him, 7 days a week) and that this is crucial as a foundation for the equally extensive strenght and anaerobic endurance phases that will come later (double daily sessions)

some googling on endurance sport periodization (eg swimming) might help you figure it out a bit better.

some common sense will also make you figure out why all of this is not that relevant for the average amateur climber, as long as overuse injuries and overtraining are not an issue.


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jul 25, 2011, 7:47 AM)


Learner


Jul 25, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Re: [ghisino] Positive Transfer from ANAEROBIC to AEROBIC Endurance? [In reply to]
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ghisino wrote:
I guess you're right in your implicit suggestion that aerobic climbing is a waste of time (at least for some climbers), but for the wrong reasons.

some interesting reading below. Especially these two pages but also others on the same blog.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-part-5-interval-training-part-2.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-summing-up-part-2.html


on another note : in at least a couple of interviews patxi usobiaga says that he starts his training season with a low intensity-high volume phase (aerobic training...all-day climbing at boringly low grades for him, 7 days a week) and that this is crucial as a foundation for the equally extensive strenght and anaerobic endurance phases that will come later (double daily sessions)

some googling on endurance sport periodization (eg swimming) might help you figure it out a bit better.

some common sense will also make you figure out why all of this is not that relevant for the average amateur climber, as long as overuse injuries and overtraining are not an issue.
Thanks for the resources. I have printed them and will read them.

But, please let everyone know what you think. You imply that you've got the answers yet you state none of them. You imply that you think aerobic climbing is a waste of time, yet you don't give a reason(s) why. I think I will agree with you, but please do share...

So, what is your personal opinion about anaerobic and aerobic endurance training for a climber, given your assumptions and what you know?

I can understand why Patxi would train in such a way. It would increase his anaerobic threshold. Then, when he trains for anaerobic endurance he can climb more difficult mediums. This is because it would now take a more intense stimulus for the body to need to depend more heavily on the anaerobic system than it would have had he not executed the low-intensity/high-volume aerobic phase beforehand.


ceebo


Jul 25, 2011, 3:11 PM
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ghisino wrote:
I guess you're right in your implicit suggestion that aerobic climbing is a waste of time (at least for some climbers), but for the wrong reasons.

some interesting reading below. Especially these two pages but also others on the same blog.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-part-5-interval-training-part-2.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-summing-up-part-2.html


on another note : in at least a couple of interviews patxi usobiaga says that he starts his training season with a low intensity-high volume phase (aerobic training...all-day climbing at boringly low grades for him, 7 days a week) and that this is crucial as a foundation for the equally extensive strenght and anaerobic endurance phases that will come later (double daily sessions)

some googling on endurance sport periodization (eg swimming) might help you figure it out a bit better.

some common sense will also make you figure out why all of this is not that relevant for the average amateur climber, as long as overuse injuries and overtraining are not an issue.

As far as i can comprehend from those links the guy is clearly pointing out that climbers (being in the middle of pure power and pure endurance) would be silly to not include both aerobic and anaerobic training.


Also, can anybody answer this (Doug?), i read a few times now that aerobic and anaerobic can not be trained together and must be trained in phases. As in, you should do for example 4 weeks of aerobic and then 2 weeks of anaerobic. So.. you could not for example train aerobic and anaerobic together on a weekly basis with a 2:1 ratio?.

Does it create some kinde confusion in how the muscles adapt?.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jul 25, 2011, 3:28 PM)


ghisino


Jul 26, 2011, 2:00 AM
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ceebo wrote:
As far as i can comprehend from those links the guy is clearly pointing out that climbers (being in the middle of pure power and pure endurance) would be silly to not include both aerobic and anaerobic training.

i'd say it depends on the climber.

if you're a grade-obsessed weekend warrior with 2 nights a week to train, your goal is to send hard "right now" and you get to the crag/boulder field only to have a few good burns on something hard enough to feel proud about it, aerobic is a waste of time...

(To do effective aerobic work this climber should trade one of his precious "performance days" at the crag for some boring "volume days"-horror!!!)

(btw, in the scenes i've known better, you have a crag/venue for each season and a quite competitive vibe at the mid/hard levels.
Having one predictable monthly/weekly hardish send is the most ego-valuable option, so those who are interested in training often stick to the above profile.
The common knowledge among those climbers is that what "works" best are short, sharp, intense sessions of strenght/bouldering or endurance. It makes perfect sense because this training gives them what they really want:being "performance-ready" almost all the time)


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jul 26, 2011, 2:01 AM)


tessien


Jul 26, 2011, 9:37 AM
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ceebo wrote:
Also, can anybody answer this (Doug?), i read a few times now that aerobic and anaerobic can not be trained together and must be trained in phases. As in, you should do for example 4 weeks of aerobic and then 2 weeks of anaerobic. So.. you could not for example train aerobic and anaerobic together on a weekly basis with a 2:1 ratio?.

Does it create some kinde confusion in how the muscles adapt?.

I work as a personal trainer, I can tell you that muscle confusion does not exist. They're just bags of meat and tendon that respond to signals from the brain.

There is also no reason you can't train aerobic and anaerobic together, naturally if you specialize in one you will progress faster, but for rockclimbing having a balance between the two is important.

Typically hiit anaerobic exercise takes a day or two to recover from, lower intensity aerobic exercises recover much faster.


ceebo


Jul 28, 2011, 12:11 PM
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tessien wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Also, can anybody answer this (Doug?), i read a few times now that aerobic and anaerobic can not be trained together and must be trained in phases. As in, you should do for example 4 weeks of aerobic and then 2 weeks of anaerobic. So.. you could not for example train aerobic and anaerobic together on a weekly basis with a 2:1 ratio?.

Does it create some kinde confusion in how the muscles adapt?.

I work as a personal trainer, I can tell you that muscle confusion does not exist. They're just bags of meat and tendon that respond to signals from the brain.

There is also no reason you can't train aerobic and anaerobic together, naturally if you specialize in one you will progress faster, but for rockclimbing having a balance between the two is important.

Typically hiit anaerobic exercise takes a day or two to recover from, lower intensity aerobic exercises recover much faster.

Ok, thnx.


jbro_135


Jul 28, 2011, 1:42 PM
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ceebo wrote:
ghisino wrote:
I guess you're right in your implicit suggestion that aerobic climbing is a waste of time (at least for some climbers), but for the wrong reasons.

some interesting reading below. Especially these two pages but also others on the same blog.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-part-5-interval-training-part-2.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-summing-up-part-2.html


on another note : in at least a couple of interviews patxi usobiaga says that he starts his training season with a low intensity-high volume phase (aerobic training...all-day climbing at boringly low grades for him, 7 days a week) and that this is crucial as a foundation for the equally extensive strenght and anaerobic endurance phases that will come later (double daily sessions)

some googling on endurance sport periodization (eg swimming) might help you figure it out a bit better.

some common sense will also make you figure out why all of this is not that relevant for the average amateur climber, as long as overuse injuries and overtraining are not an issue.

As far as i can comprehend from those links the guy is clearly pointing out that climbers (being in the middle of pure power and pure endurance) would be silly to not include both aerobic and anaerobic training.


Also, can anybody answer this (Doug?), i read a few times now that aerobic and anaerobic can not be trained together and must be trained in phases. As in, you should do for example 4 weeks of aerobic and then 2 weeks of anaerobic. So.. you could not for example train aerobic and anaerobic together on a weekly basis with a 2:1 ratio?.

Does it create some kinde confusion in how the muscles adapt?.

You know, instead of just asking Douglas Hunter for free information on this forum you could just read SCC for yourself as you've probably been told to do countless times. Reading a book or two probably wouldn't do any harm to your spelling and punctuation either.


sungam


Jul 28, 2011, 3:06 PM
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Have you had a look at Rockprodigy's article on this site? It has some good stuff on periodisation.


aerili


Aug 3, 2011, 10:45 AM
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Learner wrote:
If the development of anaerobic endurance produces improvement in aerobic endurance as well, why not train only anaerobic endurance?

Recovery from anaerobic activity depends a lot on your body's aerobic metabolism. So, endurance training will enhance your recovery between anaerobic bouts.

Also, aerobic exercise (that of the general, whole-body kind) helps athletes keep their body composition more desirable, i.e. keep body fat levels lower. Clearly a desirable thing for climbers.

Individuals who are aerobically trained have a greater tolerance to exercising in hot conditions due to increased mechanisms for self cooling. Quite important when we are climbing under hot and difficult conditions, especially if we cannot just jump off our problem or route and go 5 minutes to the air conditioned car.




ceebo wrote:
Also, can anybody answer this (Doug?), i read a few times now that aerobic and anaerobic can not be trained together and must be trained in phases. As in, you should do for example 4 weeks of aerobic and then 2 weeks of anaerobic. So.. you could not for example train aerobic and anaerobic together on a weekly basis with a 2:1 ratio?
As someone else stated, this is an outdated concept. Concurrent training can and does work if you structure it correctly for your goals. It has been found that you can even train strength and endurance on the same day in different sessions.


caughtinside


Aug 3, 2011, 11:06 AM
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That is interesting that aerobic fitness helps you climb in hot conditions.

What do you suggest for someone who is unable to climb in direct sunlight?


jt512


Aug 3, 2011, 11:58 AM
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aerili wrote:
Individuals who are aerobically trained have a greater tolerance to exercising in hot conditions due to increased mechanisms for self cooling.

Citation?

Jay


aerili


Aug 3, 2011, 1:08 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
That is interesting that aerobic fitness helps you climb in hot conditions.

What do you suggest for someone who is unable to climb in direct sunlight?
Go to a gym, noob!

But first, donate your rack to me since you won't need it there. You can keep your dog, though.




In reply to:
Citation?
MCARDLE, W.D., F.I. KATCH, AND V.L. KATCH. Exercise physiology : energy, nutrition, and human performance. 5th ed. Philadelphia: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2001, lxii, 1158

Also, here is a link stating how increased red blood cell production improves thermoregulation during exercise in the heat. Clearly, aerobic exercise increases red blood cell production; hence, the link.

More detail from ACSM's Advanced Exercise Physiology book:
http://books.google.com/...olerance&f=false


caughtinside


Aug 3, 2011, 4:31 PM
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aerili wrote:
Go to a gym, noob!

But first, donate your rack to me since you won't need it there. You can keep your dog, though.

Sorry, the dog is part of the rack. Double camalots in the bigger sizes, double aliens small, offset stoppers, 10 slings n biners, one #2 Rat Terrier. That particular model hates euros and n00bs.


damienclimber


Aug 4, 2011, 3:33 PM
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aerili wrote:
Learner wrote:
If the development of anaerobic endurance produces improvement in aerobic endurance as well, why not train only anaerobic endurance?

Recovery from anaerobic activity depends a lot on your body's aerobic metabolism. So, endurance training will enhance your recovery between anaerobic bouts.

Also, aerobic exercise (that of the general, whole-body kind) helps athletes keep their body composition more desirable, i.e. keep body fat levels lower. Clearly a desirable thing for climbers.

Individuals who are aerobically trained have a greater tolerance to exercising in hot conditions due to increased mechanisms for self cooling. Quite important when we are climbing under hot and difficult conditions, especially if we cannot just jump off our problem or route and go 5 minutes to the air conditioned car.




ceebo wrote:
Also, can anybody answer this (Doug?), i read a few times now that aerobic and anaerobic can not be trained together and must be trained in phases. As in, you should do for example 4 weeks of aerobic and then 2 weeks of anaerobic. So.. you could not for example train aerobic and anaerobic together on a weekly basis with a 2:1 ratio?
As someone else stated, this is an outdated concept. Concurrent training can and does work if you structure it correctly for your goals. It has been found that you can even train strength and endurance on the same day in different sessions.

OMG- What is your background for these statements, personal experience?
They are not correct.


jt512


Aug 4, 2011, 4:03 PM
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damienclimber wrote:
aerili wrote:
Learner wrote:
If the development of anaerobic endurance produces improvement in aerobic endurance as well, why not train only anaerobic endurance?

Recovery from anaerobic activity depends a lot on your body's aerobic metabolism. So, endurance training will enhance your recovery between anaerobic bouts.

Also, aerobic exercise (that of the general, whole-body kind) helps athletes keep their body composition more desirable, i.e. keep body fat levels lower. Clearly a desirable thing for climbers.

Individuals who are aerobically trained have a greater tolerance to exercising in hot conditions due to increased mechanisms for self cooling. Quite important when we are climbing under hot and difficult conditions, especially if we cannot just jump off our problem or route and go 5 minutes to the air conditioned car.




ceebo wrote:
Also, can anybody answer this (Doug?), i read a few times now that aerobic and anaerobic can not be trained together and must be trained in phases. As in, you should do for example 4 weeks of aerobic and then 2 weeks of anaerobic. So.. you could not for example train aerobic and anaerobic together on a weekly basis with a 2:1 ratio?
As someone else stated, this is an outdated concept. Concurrent training can and does work if you structure it correctly for your goals. It has been found that you can even train strength and endurance on the same day in different sessions.

OMG- What is your background for these statements, personal experience?
They are not correct.

QFP


aerili


Aug 4, 2011, 9:08 PM
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damienclimber wrote:
OMG- What is your background for these statements, personal experience?
They are not correct.

Which parts are not correct? The parts I already provided links to research on?

If it's the part regarding concurrent training, in what way can you not train both aerobic and anaerobic in the same week? Especially when, as a climber, every time you climb, you end up training and calling upon both systems in a single climbing session? If you are more clear about what is not "correct," then maybe I can reply better.

As for my background, I have a degree in kinesiology (science emphasis split between exercise phys, biomechanics and sport medicine, primarily) and I am a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist through the NSCA (look it up if you don't know what it is). I worked in the fitness field for a number of years in various capacities, but most of them involved training a lot of people. Oh, and I'm a climber, that's why I'm here.


serpico


Aug 5, 2011, 1:51 AM
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damienclimber wrote:

OMG- What is your background for these statements, personal experience?
They are not correct.

So that we can put your concerns into context, what's your background?


(This post was edited by serpico on Aug 5, 2011, 7:01 AM)

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