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houser52


Aug 5, 2011, 1:36 PM
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Proper tie in question
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I came to this site to learn something about climbing and safety while being off the ground.

After combing through pages and pages on this forum I can't find an answer to a specific question about properly tying to a harness with a nylon runner.

I will be using a BD Momentum climbing harness while deer hunting from a 15' - 30' elevated stand.

Keep in mind that I do not use the harness to climb and I am not a climber but my harness will hopefully keep me safe if I should fall out of the stand. I will be tied in close so a if a fall should occur it would be only a few feet before being caught by my safety line.

I will be attaching the runner to the main safety rope (11mm Dynamic) using a carabiner and prussic loop(7mm PMI cord) and attach the other end of the runner to my harness.

I guess my question is what is the best and safest way to attach the runner to my harness? Girth hitch? Carabiner?

Thanks for your help


(This post was edited by houser52 on Aug 5, 2011, 1:44 PM)


MS1


Aug 5, 2011, 1:41 PM
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Re: [houser52] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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houser52 wrote:
I came to this site to learn something about climbing and safety while being off the ground.

After combing through pages and pages on this forum I can't find an answer to a specific question about properly tying to a harness with a nylon runner.

I will be using a BD Momentum climbing harness while deer hunting from an elevated stand.

Keep in mind that I do not use the harness to climb and I am not a climber but my harness will hopefully keep me safe if I should fall out of the stand.

I will be attaching the runner to the main safety rope (11mm Dynamic) using a carabiner and prussic loop(7mm PMI cord) and attach the other end of the runner to my harness.

I guess my question is what is the best and safest way to attach the runner to my harness? Girth hitch? Carabiner?

Thanks for your help


There are many ways to do it, but a girth hitch through both hardpoints of your harness is easy and fairly foolproof. If you use this system over a long period of time, remember to remove it periodically to check for wear to your harness.


houser52


Aug 5, 2011, 1:50 PM
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Re: [MS1] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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MS1 wrote:
houser52 wrote:
I came to this site to learn something about climbing and safety while being off the ground.

After combing through pages and pages on this forum I can't find an answer to a specific question about properly tying to a harness with a nylon runner.

I will be using a BD Momentum climbing harness while deer hunting from an elevated stand.

Keep in mind that I do not use the harness to climb and I am not a climber but my harness will hopefully keep me safe if I should fall out of the stand.

I will be attaching the runner to the main safety rope (11mm Dynamic) using a carabiner and prussic loop(7mm PMI cord) and attach the other end of the runner to my harness.

I guess my question is what is the best and safest way to attach the runner to my harness? Girth hitch? Carabiner?

Thanks for your help


There are many ways to do it, but a girth hitch through both hardpoints of your harness is easy and fairly foolproof. If you use this system over a long period of time, remember to remove it periodically to check for wear to your harness.

Thanks. I didn't want to do anything to compromise my safety.
I've been using a regular tree stand safety harness but that thing is big, bulky and hot plus if I do fall I'll be facing away from the tree with the tether high above my head and behind me. To me that would seem to be hard to get out of and get back to the ground.


rockforlife


Aug 5, 2011, 4:28 PM
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Re: [MS1] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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MS1 wrote:
houser52 wrote:
I came to this site to learn something about climbing and safety while being off the ground.

After combing through pages and pages on this forum I can't find an answer to a specific question about properly tying to a harness with a nylon runner.

I will be using a BD Momentum climbing harness while deer hunting from an elevated stand.

Keep in mind that I do not use the harness to climb and I am not a climber but my harness will hopefully keep me safe if I should fall out of the stand.

I will be attaching the runner to the main safety rope (11mm Dynamic) using a carabiner and prussic loop(7mm PMI cord) and attach the other end of the runner to my harness.

I guess my question is what is the best and safest way to attach the runner to my harness? Girth hitch? Carabiner?

Thanks for your help


There are many ways to do it, but a girth hitch through both hardpoints of your harness is easy and fairly foolproof. If you use this system over a long period of time, remember to remove it periodically to check for wear to your harness.


OR just put it on the belay loop, where it can move around and not saw back and forth on the same spot.

would be die? no, but I would say its more complicated than it needs to be


spikeddem


Aug 5, 2011, 4:56 PM
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Re: [rockforlife] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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rockforlife wrote:
MS1 wrote:
houser52 wrote:
I came to this site to learn something about climbing and safety while being off the ground.

After combing through pages and pages on this forum I can't find an answer to a specific question about properly tying to a harness with a nylon runner.

I will be using a BD Momentum climbing harness while deer hunting from an elevated stand.

Keep in mind that I do not use the harness to climb and I am not a climber but my harness will hopefully keep me safe if I should fall out of the stand.

I will be attaching the runner to the main safety rope (11mm Dynamic) using a carabiner and prussic loop(7mm PMI cord) and attach the other end of the runner to my harness.

I guess my question is what is the best and safest way to attach the runner to my harness? Girth hitch? Carabiner?

Thanks for your help


There are many ways to do it, but a girth hitch through both hardpoints of your harness is easy and fairly foolproof. If you use this system over a long period of time, remember to remove it periodically to check for wear to your harness.


OR just put it on the belay loop, where it can move around and not saw back and forth on the same spot.

would be die? no, but I would say its more complicated than it needs to be

Don't follow rockforlife's advice. Do it through the tie-in points.


rockforlife


Aug 5, 2011, 4:57 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
rockforlife wrote:
MS1 wrote:
houser52 wrote:
I came to this site to learn something about climbing and safety while being off the ground.

After combing through pages and pages on this forum I can't find an answer to a specific question about properly tying to a harness with a nylon runner.

I will be using a BD Momentum climbing harness while deer hunting from an elevated stand.

Keep in mind that I do not use the harness to climb and I am not a climber but my harness will hopefully keep me safe if I should fall out of the stand.

I will be attaching the runner to the main safety rope (11mm Dynamic) using a carabiner and prussic loop(7mm PMI cord) and attach the other end of the runner to my harness.

I guess my question is what is the best and safest way to attach the runner to my harness? Girth hitch? Carabiner?

Thanks for your help


There are many ways to do it, but a girth hitch through both hardpoints of your harness is easy and fairly foolproof. If you use this system over a long period of time, remember to remove it periodically to check for wear to your harness.


OR just put it on the belay loop, where it can move around and not saw back and forth on the same spot.

would be die? no, but I would say its more complicated than it needs to be

Don't follow rockforlife's advice. Do it through the tie-in points.


He can do that, doesn't bother be, But i would like to know why you think that? not trying to be a dick just want to know, where you are coming from.


houser52


Aug 5, 2011, 5:26 PM
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Re: [rockforlife] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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From what I have been trying to absorb from all the reading I've done on here, both places could be used safely. The belay loop is very strong and is designed for high stresses. On the other hand tying in through both the waist belt and leg loop gives two tie in places just in case one should fail.

I guess my main concern was if the runner would damage the harness or a girth hitched runner would be too weak to support a fall.


sungam


Aug 6, 2011, 1:37 AM
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Re: [houser52] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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The tie in loops are reinforced nylon, designed to resist damage from being rubbed on by other nylon products (e.g. the rope). The belay loop is designed to have metal clipped to it. It is not reinforced and thus is not nearly as resistant to abrasion damage from other nylon products.

Do it through the tie in loops.


Partner j_ung


Aug 6, 2011, 5:34 AM
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Re: [sungam] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
The tie in loops are reinforced nylon, designed to resist damage from being rubbed on by other nylon products (e.g. the rope). The belay loop is designed to have metal clipped to it. It is not reinforced and thus is not nearly as resistant to abrasion damage from other nylon products.

Do it through the tie in loops.

This is the correct answer.


Partner rgold


Aug 6, 2011, 7:53 AM
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Re: [houser52] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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Jung said it all, as far as it goes. Personally, I'd worry a bit about a prussik always catching a fall, and would back it up by tying a figure-eight in the main rope below the prussik and clipping that to the harness belay loop with a beefy locking carabiner. This is standard practice for climbing situations in which prussiks are relied on to hold loads.

The dedicated harnesses for your situation are modeled on industrial fall harnesses. The high back attachment gives less chance of back injury and prevents you from turning upside-down in a fall. Such an attachment is impractical for climbing, but I thing you are wrong to reject it for your purposes.


houser52


Aug 6, 2011, 9:11 AM
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Re: [rgold] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Jung said it all, as far as it goes. Personally, I'd worry a bit about a prussik always catching a fall, and would back it up by tying a figure-eight in the main rope below the prussik and clipping that to the harness belay loop with a beefy locking carabiner. This is standard practice for climbing situations in which prussiks are relied on to hold loads.

The dedicated harnesses for your situation are modeled on industrial fall harnesses. The high back attachment gives less chance of back injury and prevents you from turning upside-down in a fall. Such an attachment is impractical for climbing, but I thing you are wrong to reject it for your purposes.

Thanks for the tip about using the figure 8 as a back up for the prussik. I'll be using a back up from now on.

What really got me to thinking about the climber's harness was that there was an 8 page discussion started by a rock climber/hunter on one of the hunting forums and there was really a lively debate of the pros and cons between the two types of harnesses.

The climber/hunter really made his case for the climbing harness just because of the way the hunter's harness is designed. In the event of a fall you are about guaranteed to be left hanging below your stand with the tether connection far above your head and out of reach. This would make self rescue almost impossible if you were in a stand without steps or a ladder.
With a climber's harness you would be tied in at your belly where you have easy access to your tether and main rope. With the right equipment, self rescue would a better possibility. You could use your cell phone to call for help but how soon would it arrive and how would they get you down? And then there's suspension trauma that has to be taken into account too.

You are correct in your statement about the hunter's harnesses being patterned after industrial harnesses. In industrial falls there's always a crew working nearby to rescue someone who's fallen and hanging in mid air by their harness whereas with a hunter he might be hunting alone in the woods and with no one to rescue him.

He also stated facts where you guys, as rock climbers, take more serious falls far greater than hunters would ever take and the climbers harness work extremely well if the climber has done his part and maintained his equipment.

I was hoping to get some feed back like yours. That's the reason I came to this climbing forum, to learn from actual climbers and not some guy sitting in an office trying to come up with hunting harness ideas.

Thanks


Partner rgold


Aug 6, 2011, 9:34 AM
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Re: [houser52] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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I guess the first question to ask is how you plan to extricate yourself if you end up dangling in space in a climbing harness.

The answer to that question pretty much tells you what to do with the industrial one. You should have a long sling attached to second prussik on your main line underneath the other prussik. The sling length should be such that when you are dangling, you can get your foot in with a high step. You can stuff the sling into a pocket to keep it out of the way.

Have a look at the way climbers rig such slings for glacier travel; you'd be using the same idea.

Since the entire fall you are contemplating is a foot or two, this gets you back to the level you started at and should allow you to reach the top prussik. For something a bit easier to manipulate, you could substitute a Petzl Tibloc for the second prussik.


tH1e-swiN1e


Aug 6, 2011, 10:37 AM
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Re: [rgold] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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As a hunter myself, you need to ditch the BD harness and get a full body harness with rear loops. Your BD has the loops in the front which means your rope is going to be in front of you and in your way, as will all the gear loops on the harness. Also if you fall its going to spin you out of your stand or upside down instead of falling straight away.


houser52


Aug 6, 2011, 11:00 AM
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Re: [rgold] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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Thanks for your comments and suggestions.

Yep. I've already thought about that by doing a lot of reading about climbing, knots, gear and self rescue since last hunting season. Been learning the different ropes, slings, knots, their application and how to tie them. You Tube has some helpful videos from some good climbers.

I saw the Tibloc mentioned somewhere during my research. It sounded like a good tool to ascend with but couldn't find much info on how to use it. Is it a self locking device that will hold well?

My climbing harness should be here next week. Then I'll be able to practice self rescue at ground level before going up too high.

Thanks to this forum and others it has helped a lot although it takes time to sift through the big talk to get to the facts sometime.Smile

Anymore tips or gear to recommend?

Thanks


houser52


Aug 6, 2011, 11:26 AM
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Re: [tH1e-swiN1e] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
As a hunter myself, you need to ditch the BD harness and get a full body harness with rear loops. Your BD has the loops in the front which means your rope is going to be in front of you and in your way, as will all the gear loops on the harness. Also if you fall its going to spin you out of your stand or upside down instead of falling straight away.

Bear with me. I was skeptical about it too at first but please think about it for a minute before dismissing the idea.

You are sitting in your stand with the tree at your back. You have on a climbing harness. A tether is connected from the harness to the tree about waist height or just above. The tether is just long enough to allow you to turn 180 degrees to your left or right and still be comfortable. When sitting down the tether is laying across your lap to the side and running behind you to the tree. It's completely out of the way while drawing a bow or shouldering a gun.

If you should stumble or fall asleep or whatever, do you actually take a fall or just weight the harness?
With the BD harness tied in close it won't be like falling while wearing my HSS vest with a 3'-4' tether with the breakaway stitching that puts you an additional 1'-2' feet under your stand.


gunkiemike


Aug 7, 2011, 8:56 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Proper tie in question [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
sungam wrote:
The tie in loops are reinforced nylon, designed to resist damage from being rubbed on by other nylon products (e.g. the rope). The belay loop is designed to have metal clipped to it. It is not reinforced and thus is not nearly as resistant to abrasion damage from other nylon products.

Do it through the tie in loops.

This is the correct answer.

Of course...and every harness manuf. (AFAIK) would agree.

But no one considers that the belay loop is in constant contact with those hard points. Rubbing, chafing away day after day. But gee, we don't see a lot of damage to the belay loop. So I for one don't think occasionally girth hitching a tether to the BL is going to cause any significant abrasion.


sungam


Aug 7, 2011, 9:36 AM
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gunkiemike wrote:
j_ung wrote:
sungam wrote:
The tie in loops are reinforced nylon, designed to resist damage from being rubbed on by other nylon products (e.g. the rope). The belay loop is designed to have metal clipped to it. It is not reinforced and thus is not nearly as resistant to abrasion damage from other nylon products.

Do it through the tie in loops.

This is the correct answer.

Of course...and every harness manuf. (AFAIK) would agree.

But no one considers that the belay loop is in constant contact with those hard points. Rubbing, chafing away day after day. But gee, we don't see a lot of damage to the belay loop. So I for one don't think occasionally girth hitching a tether to the BL is going to cause any significant abrasion.
Occasionally, probobly not. But why use the less safe option? Is have the sling attached to you belay loop really that much more convinient?

A good point about the belay loop. It probobly doesn't take too much damage since it's the one doing the sawing action, and the surface area of the tie ins are quite large.


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