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sungam
Jul 1, 2011, 5:13 PM
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There's a V4 There? Is that passed the V6 that's just to the right of Bear Hug?
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stealth
Jul 1, 2011, 10:57 PM
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ceebo wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: johnwesely wrote: ceebo wrote: And wolf gang invent the campus board, ask yourself why. Maybe he was better off doing some endurance drills. The reason that doing endurance drills is such common advice is because most climbers are incredibly strong in comparison to their endurance because of bouldering gyms. Wolfgang probably did not have that problem. Also, if you do them correctly, a 4x4 is a hundred times more debilitating than any campus workout and was a tool developed, like the campus board, to develop the fitness to climb world class routes. I wont argue with that, but i have never once done a 4x4 with ought multiples interruptions by random climbers. Also my understanding is that 4x4's targets high end endurance where as campusing pushes maximum strength limit and strength endurance. Could be wrong on that. I doubt campusing does much for endurance unless you are doing tons of reps, and then you would be much better off doing something else. I started doing 4x4s in earnest a few months ago. Due to my schedule being really weird, I haven't been able to do more than 3 sessions in a row without long breaks in between, but my hardest onsight is now a grade above where my previous hardest redpoint was before I started 4x4s. Guess i will try to read up on it. I just thought that in pushing maximum strength you are at the peak if not slightly beyond the highest level of strength endurance. Anyway, good for you on the improvements.
Good job , beginners welcome !
just a drive by.........
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Japa
Jul 26, 2011, 5:05 AM
Post #53 of 75
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Hey where's the campusing video???
(This post was edited by Japa on Jul 30, 2011, 5:43 AM)
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flesh
Aug 8, 2011, 6:02 AM
Post #54 of 75
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Japa wrote: Hey where's the campusing video???
BUMP, it's done. sorry it took so long.
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iknowfear
Aug 8, 2011, 7:26 AM
Post #55 of 75
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clicky link from first page for the lazy.
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sungam
Aug 8, 2011, 9:40 AM
Post #56 of 75
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flesh wrote: Japa wrote: Hey where's the campusing video??? BUMP, it's done. sorry it took so long.  That was a pretty intense session, dudebrah.
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flesh
Aug 8, 2011, 9:17 PM
Post #57 of 75
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If anyone has any questions about how to apply this to your situation just let me know, no biggie.
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srrk
Aug 9, 2011, 2:22 PM
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I really like this idea of maximum training intensity with minimum injury potential.
It is a little hard to see how open your grip is though in the video. It almost looks like you latch with a half crimp and then open up. Are you trying to progress to full open (first pad on rung and fingers more or less straight)?
thanks!
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flesh
Aug 9, 2011, 4:38 PM
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srrk wrote: I really like this idea of maximum training intensity with minimum injury potential. It is a little hard to see how open your grip is though in the video. It almost looks like you latch with a half crimp and then open up. Are you trying to progress to full open (first pad on rung and fingers more or less straight)? thanks!
Sure, it's a little confusing. I'm basically open handed, I don't catch in a crimp at all. The only reason I didn't say I was 100% open (im probably 95%) is because my middle finger is just barely not totally open but my other three fingers are totally open. In otherwords, since my middle finger is longer, it's somewhere in between fully open and a open crimp I'd say while the others, once again, are fully open. If you look closely in the video you'll see that my middle finger is bent a little more whereas the others are fully extended. I can't go to a smaller size rung because even just a little smaller would make it so my middle finger was in an open crimp and the others would be in between and therefore be much less safe. So I add weight instead. It's possible I could use a slightly smaller rung and use three fingers, minus the pinky, and still stay open. Honestly, I'll probably be climbing v13 when I can use 30 lbs at 10 plus reps using the rung I currently do so I don't have to figure that out yet ;).
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rockprodigy
Aug 17, 2011, 1:58 PM
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Interesting stuff, mr. Flesh. Nice job on Mr. Mom, that thing is the real deal, and it was FA'd by Steven Jeffrey, I believe.
As far as the best way to increase "power", I think you are on the right track. In theory, you want to increase the intensity of the load as much as possible while decreasing the time required to apply the load, so weighted dynamic movements are the way to go. I've often phatasized about weighted campusing, but was too leary of injury potential to try it. Ironically, I've unintentionally been doing weighted campusing for years now...I used to be 15-20 lbs overweight. Now, at my current weight, I'm floating up the campus board (compared to what I used to do), so why should I be afraid of putting that weight back on in the form of a weight vest?
That said, the problem with this approach is that it has limited application. For starters, I think you can only expect to make gains in this way for a very short period of time (maybe a month at most), and those gains will be pretty short-lived. Second, your training is limited to one very specific grip position, so it's only going to be a handful of routes/boulder problems that benefit directly from this very specific form of training. In that sense, people who argue in favor of a more general training approach have a point. On the other hand, a potential improvement to your routine would be to try to figure out a way to incorporate alternate hold types. For example, could you make the same movements off of pinch holds?
Also, the power that you develop has somewhat limited application. Obviously, it's most useful for bouldering, and becomes less useful the more you get into route climbing (depending on the route, obviously). There are numerous climbs for which very intense open-hand crimp strength will have no value, but that is a personal choice to climb these routes or not.
Many have argued in the literature and these forums that power is not needed for climbing, and any powerful moves can be overcome with better technique. They often point out "unpowerful" people who manage to climb "hard" routes (usually women), as proof of their theory. In general, the routes used in these examples are on the extreme low end of the power spectrum. Therefore, there are also routes that are very powerful and no amount of finesse and technique will get you up them if you don't have the requisite power. Sometimes you have to lock off that mono to your waist, and there is no way around it. In these cases, no amount of flagging drills will get you up that move, you need to train power.
These facts lead to choices which we must all make in order to prioritize our climbing. What do you want to be good at? If you want to be as skilled as possible at a wide variety of climbing, it's necessary to train technique and movement alongside strength and power. If you decide you would rather specialize in a certain type of climbing to maximize the grade you can climb, it may be possible to ignore, or de-emphasize one of those aspects in training.
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flesh
Aug 17, 2011, 6:00 PM
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U know, one would think that progress would be short lived, however, that has not been the case with me.
As I said, using this exact same technique and simply adding weight as time goes on, I've seen steady, measurable improvement for about 6 months. I do it 2-3 times a month and almost every time I go up in either reps or weight. At some point, it seems like a plateau should be hit, which results will surely vary.
Campusing on pinches is a great idea. Funny enough, that was the first thing I figured I should do or alternate between with what I've been doing.
I think I'll either have to build my own training wall or go to a local gym and find four good friendly pinches that I can campus up and down on. I'm pretty sure the folks at the gym wouldn't mind. I think it would work best if it was on a roof so when campusing up and down, each movement was close in difficulty. Pinching definately helps in some climbing areas and pinches are used frequently when gym climbing or comp climbing.
Once I get to 20 lbs (my weight vest max) I think what I'll do is use the same rung but start near the top and skip one rung on the way up and two rungs on the way down. When I reach the bottom this could be 8-10 reps, plus, when I'm most likely to fail I'll be closer to the bottom and the safety of the pad so I won't be afraid to push myself.
Echoing what you said, it's very important to switch it up, whether it's routes/boulders/campusing/onsighting/holds etc. to avoid a plateau and to prevent injury.
I'm most interested in bouldering/comps/short powerful routes so I'm not to interested in resistance climbing. I rarely climb anything longer than 8 bolts.
I never implied technique wasn't important? Technique is just as important as power and likely more important if your goal is to climb resistance type routes (60 feet plus).
I don't mention technique much because there's so much out there for it already. Eric horst and Doug Hunter have great books on it. When I started climbing I regularly climbed with folks who had been trained by Doug Hunter one on one. I was doing 4 x 4s in 1998. I was practicing straight arm climbing and what's not called silent feet back then as well.
I'm just adding what I felt like wasn't out there yet. To contribute something that seemed new and helpful.
I can't power crimp often without getting injuries, I proved that 9 times already and at this point it's simply not worth it to me, so I almost never power crimp and neve train crimps and refuse to project anything that requres repetive crimping. If I can do a crimp problem open handed, even if it's harder to do so, that's what I do. If I must crimp, I limit it to one or two tries and then make sure not to crimp hard again for another week or so. If you can crimp hard regularly I consider you lucky but I'd never recomment it as I suspect most folks, even alot of those who wouldn't agree with me now, will get injured from it. It might just take them getting to v9 plus crimping before it starts happening to them like it did me.
One bonus to climbing open that surprised me is that I can climb more frequently and at a high level. Cumatively, I believe this will make a big difference over time.
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rockprodigy
Aug 17, 2011, 6:29 PM
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I didn't mean to imply that you think technique is not important. I'm just making a general comment about training for climbing and prioritizing the various possible activities.
I don't know what to make of your steady improvement for 6 months. The fact that you're only training this way 2-3 times a month must be part of it, and I suspect your weight loss is another part. Usually, when I train power, I train it for about a month, and it lasts about a month, then there is a significant and noticeable dropoff. However, I don't do anything to "maintain" it, other than climbing on routes, which I think is counterproductive to maintaining that power. I've never attempted to stay powerful for much longer than a month. It makes me wonder if you are really at your peak?
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flesh
Aug 17, 2011, 6:57 PM
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rockprodigy wrote: I didn't mean to imply that you think technique is not important. I'm just making a general comment about training for climbing and prioritizing the various possible activities. I don't know what to make of your steady improvement for 6 months. The fact that you're only training this way 2-3 times a month must be part of it, and I suspect your weight loss is another part. Usually, when I train power, I train it for about a month, and it lasts about a month, then there is a significant and noticeable dropoff. However, I don't do anything to "maintain" it, other than climbing on routes, which I think is counterproductive to maintaining that power. I've never attempted to stay powerful for much longer than a month. It makes me wonder if you are really at your peak?
ATM, I'm convincing myself there isn't such thing as a peak ;)
When I look back on the last 13 years of climbing, I can't think of one time where I wasn't clearly improving, except due to injury.
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johnwesely
Aug 19, 2011, 2:52 AM
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Flesh, thanks for inspiring to get me on the board for the first time in four years. Last Thursday, I did one session of your workout on a 1.5 pad sloping edge and saw huge gains. During my first gym session after the workout, I climbed a long, 20 foot, boulder problem first go that I couldn't even do all of the moves on the session previous to the campus workout. Keep up the coolness.
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flesh
Aug 31, 2011, 6:11 PM
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Did this workout again last night.
1 set I managed 17.5 lbs, 11 reps
2 sets I managed 8 reps 20 lbs.
I went up in weight and reps again.
I'm still very suprised I'm seeing such consistent results.
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userdude
Aug 31, 2011, 10:03 PM
Post #66 of 75
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It's web fags man. They're on every online forum. Most are miserable, whiney, bitches who wouldn't address you the same way at the crag.
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flesh
Sep 22, 2011, 8:04 PM
Post #67 of 75
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nothing groundbreaking but a small update, I have been up to 20lbs using my weight vest's full weight for a bit now. I thought it might be a little ridiculous to add more weight than that but I didn't want to use a smaller rung as this size is the smallest I can use while staying open handed. Solution, went to another gym that has the same rung, but the campus board is steeper. First session on it last night and I was doing 10 reps with no weight.
Just an idea. Before going to a smaller rung or before you add an obscene amount of weight try using a slightly steeper board. Makes a huge difference. It will be months before I can do 10 reps with 20 lbs on this new steeper board.
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elmayimbe
Sep 28, 2011, 6:17 PM
Post #68 of 75
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Flesh, thanks for the video and detailed information. I've decided to try and incorporate this into my training. I began today, but didn't have my weight vest. At the same gym as the vimeo clip, the largest rungs (non-Metolius) felt really easy. On the next size down (large Metolius), I failed after 5 reps, skipping 1 rung. Next, on that same rung size, I did a few 10-rep sets without skipping a rung. I'm trying to decide for next time whether to add a lot of weight & use the huge rungs or add a little weight on the Metolius rungs without skipping. For relating my baseline to climbing: my highpoints are v9 & 13- sport, but I've mostly been on trad routes as of late and v7 seems to be my current max (at least in this gym).
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flesh
Sep 30, 2011, 5:31 PM
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elmayimbe wrote: Flesh, thanks for the video and detailed information. I've decided to try and incorporate this into my training. I began today, but didn't have my weight vest. At the same gym as the vimeo clip, the largest rungs (non-Metolius) felt really easy. On the next size down (large Metolius), I failed after 5 reps, skipping 1 rung. Next, on that same rung size, I did a few 10-rep sets without skipping a rung. I'm trying to decide for next time whether to add a lot of weight & use the huge rungs or add a little weight on the Metolius rungs without skipping. For relating my baseline to climbing: my highpoints are v9 & 13- sport, but I've mostly been on trad routes as of late and v7 seems to be my current max (at least in this gym).
Yes, I think 8 reps should be the minimum so if you can't do that, you'll need to decrease weight or use larger rungs and add weight. A friend of mine doing this workout with me recently said that he calls one rep going up and down.... this made sense to me. I've been doing 8-10 reps which using his logic would be 4-5 reps which is right in the meat of what bodybuilders focus on for pure power.
Try using the larger rungs. It sounds like you could use 20 lbs on the larger rung and still manage 8 reps. Use the sequence you see in the black and white in the video. Start near the top and go up one rung, without skipping, the skip two rungs on the way down, repeat. You should be at 8 reps by the time your at the very bottom. You always want to go until failure though so if you find yourself at the bottom and can manage one or two more reps, just go up skipping or not skipping.
It shouldn't be too long before your able to use the smaller rungs without weight and manage 8 reps.
Good luck, and if you see me there, say hi..... always looking for motivated people to train with. However I'll be in font for the next month! so you won't see me!
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sungam
Sep 30, 2011, 6:22 PM
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flesh wrote: I'll be in font for the next month!
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flesh
Sep 30, 2011, 7:18 PM
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sungam wrote: flesh wrote: I'll be in font for the next month! Sungam is jealous.
Yes, a dream come true....
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elmayimbe
Oct 3, 2011, 4:39 PM
Post #72 of 75
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Thanks for helpful the response and that makes sense on the rep count equating to power. Enjoy le font!
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Rufsen
Oct 4, 2011, 11:57 AM
Post #73 of 75
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Check out aerodynamite and la balance. Both involve campus moves on awesome slopers.
Hopefully i can get there in february/march. I just need some time and money first.
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flesh
Oct 5, 2011, 5:38 PM
Post #74 of 75
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Rufsen wrote: Check out aerodynamite and la balance. Both involve campus moves on awesome slopers. Hopefully i can get there in february/march. I just need some time and money first.
hehe, yes very good problems... but I already did them!
Hoping 2 do karma and total eclipse!
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flesh
Apr 20, 2012, 6:33 PM
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quick update on this..... progress started to slow down.... I lost more weight and was down to 149..... I think I found the point where diminishing returns kicked in losing weight. After a couple months of virtually no progress, I decided to increase the calories. I decided to get up to about 155 over the course of a couple months and then back down to 150 over a couple months and so on. When I started eating more again, results were immediate.
^^^^^^ in the above responses I suggested using a steeper wall to increase difficulty while still using a finger friendly sized rung.
Now that I can do 10 reps on this steeper wall consistently I decided to add distance.
Personally, I've never found a move I couldn't due because I couldn't pull hard enough (pull/lockoff muscles/reach), so I don't want to add unwanted bulk by training for it. In the original video, using large rungs, you see me skipping one rung up and two down. I don't believe skipping more on the way down works the pull muscles, just the fingers harder. So now I'm doing 10 reps on the medium rungs skipping one up and two down. Next, I'll start adding weight.
cheers.
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