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Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw
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qwert


Aug 21, 2011, 2:19 AM
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Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw
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Afte this thread now is about canned meat, i want to try my luck here.

How do i stop my rope biner on a trad draw from flipping around?

Retainers like the petzl string or some rubber rings do work perfektly, however there is the issue that an unclipped strand will leave the biner still hanging on the sling, only seccured by the rubber bits.

And just using nothing?

Yes, that works, but the biners tend to always flip around. While that is no problem if you are at a good stance, it is a problem if you use the draw at bad positions (either hard trad, or if you are also carrying it for sport, as i do).

So i have seen a clove hitch used on the bottom biner.

After plaing around with it for a bit, it seems like it would be a nice solution.

At first sight, looks like a normal trad draw.


If you unclip one strand, it looks kinda weird, but the biner is still clipped to the sling.



There is some difference in length, but it is neglible


However it does not work too well if you couple a stiff, large sling, with a small biner



On the other hand, combined with beals 6mm slings, you can even dress a nice clove hitch on the smallest biners there are!

So now my question is:
how does the clove hitch affect the breaking strength of the sling in this configuration?
All tests with clove hitches i know of, are in the "normal configuration" (that is, the pull on the knot is only on one strand).
In this config, both strands get pulled on equally. The clove does not get used as a clove hitch, but simply as a method to secure the biner.

So what do you think.

Where are my errors!

Why is this not a common solution? At first sight, this looks like an obvious solution to make a perfect trad draw, but i simply cant believe that. If it where, it would be widely used. Or is it simply that trad draws only get used at climbs where you have a good stance always, and so it does not matter if the biners are flipped.

And what about short open slings?

The drawbacks of the retainer still apply, but i from my observations about how they behave, i would deem the risk of them unclipping small enough, unlike trad draws, where i actually had that happen to me once.

qwert


(This post was edited by qwert on Aug 21, 2011, 2:20 AM)
Attachments: clove1.jpeg (135 KB)
  double_clipped_clow.jpeg (140 KB)
  length1.jpeg (141 KB)
  length2_1.jpeg (124 KB)
  small_large.jpeg (129 KB)
  6mm.jpeg (120 KB)
  slingdraw.jpeg (111 KB)


patto


Aug 21, 2011, 3:52 AM
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Re: [qwert] Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw [In reply to]
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I think I'd prefer a 'string' attachment rather than compromising my slings like that. Though personally I don't see the point of either.

(My opinion, no offense intended.)


qwert


Aug 21, 2011, 5:01 AM
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Re: [patto] Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
I think I'd prefer a 'string' attachment rather than compromising my slings like that.
What do you see as "compromising"? Yes, knots do generally weaken a sling, however my question is - is that even a knot, or more correct, hitch? By name, it is, but in that configuration, it probably is not (though i dont really know).
With string attachment, you mean like with a petzl string, or as shown in my last pic?
The problem with that, is that, if one strand of the sling becomes unclipped, the biner will stay on the sling, often in such a way that there is not (easy) way to see it. The sling will appear totally normal and safe, only that it wont even hold bodywheight.

In reply to:
Though personally I don't see the point of either.
I guess that does indeed have to do with personal preference and what you are used too. If one starts with trad draws, a turned biner is probably just what you are used too, whereas if you come from sport draws, a flipped biner is quite the annoyance.

qwert


Partner j_ung


Aug 21, 2011, 5:26 AM
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Re: [qwert] Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw [In reply to]
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I don't restrict my rope-end biners at all, and I don't really have any problems. If I make sure they're oriented correctly when I leave the ground, they tend to stay that way.


marc801


Aug 21, 2011, 10:03 AM
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Re: [qwert] Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
If one starts with trad draws, a turned biner is probably just what you are used too, whereas if you come from sport draws, a flipped biner is quite the annoyance.
You know, they really do work in either orientation. You're trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.


hafilax


Aug 21, 2011, 12:32 PM
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Re: [qwert] Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw [In reply to]
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I think the best solution would be to carry a couple of long quickdraws.



qwert


Aug 22, 2011, 12:46 AM
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Re: [marc801] Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
qwert wrote:
If one starts with trad draws, a turned biner is probably just what you are used too, whereas if you come from sport draws, a flipped biner is quite the annoyance.
You know, they really do work in either orientation. You're trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
I know that it does not matter for a biner which way it is turned to "work", however it sucks to clip a flipped biner, or to always have to flip it back in the right orientation to clip it. Thus i want to fix it. If those flipped biners wherent a "problem" in some situations, no one would bother with quickdraws!

And speaking of quickdraws, long draws are not what i am searching for (i do already have quite a few of them), since they are only around 20cm long and do not extend. Of course i could always clip two draws if needed, but that means i would use up more draws, and also there will be hundreds of people on this site telling me that i am going to die, because of clipping a biner into a biner…

qwert


hafilax


Aug 22, 2011, 1:32 AM
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Re: [qwert] Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
marc801 wrote:
qwert wrote:
If one starts with trad draws, a turned biner is probably just what you are used too, whereas if you come from sport draws, a flipped biner is quite the annoyance.
You know, they really do work in either orientation. You're trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
I know that it does not matter for a biner which way it is turned to "work", however it sucks to clip a flipped biner, or to always have to flip it back in the right orientation to clip it. Thus i want to fix it. If those flipped biners wherent a "problem" in some situations, no one would bother with quickdraws!

And speaking of quickdraws, long draws are not what i am searching for (i do already have quite a few of them), since they are only around 20cm long and do not extend. Of course i could always clip two draws if needed, but that means i would use up more draws, and also there will be hundreds of people on this site telling me that i am going to die, because of clipping a biner into a biner…

qwert
If you know you don't want to extend it grab the quickdraw. If the biner is flipped on the extendable then just extend it.


tolman_paul


Aug 24, 2011, 2:05 PM
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Re: [qwert] Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw [In reply to]
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My concern would be twofold.

Firstly it appears that by adding the clove hitch the centerline of the runner has moved from the spine side of the biner more to the center of the bend of the biner. Biners have their maximum strength when the load is biased towards the spine, so you have possibly reduced the strength of the biner, but you'd need to pull test 5 or 10 ten to get any meaningful statistical results.

The other concern is that anytime you have added a knot to the webbing and hence have weakened it. The high strength gel spun polymer threads have a nasty habit of cutting themselves under load when knotted. Again you'd have to pull test several of these setups, but you might be suprised to see your seemingly harmless knot has degraded the strength of the webbing.

The more I climb, the more I appreciate simple approches to gear and anchors. Don't complicate things when you likely have no performance gain, and may have introduced degredation to your gear you didn't anticipate.


qwert


Oct 13, 2011, 6:44 AM
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Re: [qwert] Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw [In reply to]
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Just came upon this article:
http://www.alpenverein.de/...8fb8ecccb9c963a875b0
(its in German, but it has a table at the end)

There is one test result for a clove hitch (=Mastwurf) loaded in the configuration i am using it. The mammut 8mm sling they are using is loosing 25% strength, and thus has about 18kN left.

Oh well, now i am confused. Loosing 25% is quite an amount, but then on the other hand, 17.7kN is also quite a bit of strength… Crazy

I have another idea, which i might post here some time, but i had to put this link here, because otherwise i might forget about it, when i have some time to play around with my drad draws again.

qwert


healyje


Oct 13, 2011, 9:55 AM
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Re: [qwert] Fixating the rope biner in a trad draw/ sling draw [In reply to]
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Skinny dyneema slings lose a significant part of their strength every year of active use. The ones I had tested for three years running went from 22kn down to 8-11kn by their fourth year.

Girth hitching the sling could then easily drop you down into the 6kn range which is a decidedly undesirable situation. And I'm guess girth-hitching would very likely accelerate the year-by-year strength-loss due to the bending and sling-on-sling friction. You also don't want to girth hitch skinny slings on trad draws because you will be isolating wear on one spot on the sling versus letting it occur randomly around the sling. (This is similar to the problem Tod Skinner inadvertently created by grith hitching a daisy to his belay loop instead of the tie-in points resulting in repeated wear on one spot on the belay loop.)

By and large, this is solution unnecessarily in search of a problem. Yeah, biners occasionally flip, but it's no big deal; simply unflip them on the ground as suggested, and if necessary when clipping them - don't compromise the sling for a trivial convenience.


(This post was edited by healyje on Oct 13, 2011, 12:26 PM)


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