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hafcly


Aug 25, 2011, 3:25 PM
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I'm 19 and currently at university, as a kid I was good at kayaking, bushcraft and gorge walking.

I've always wanted to learn how to rock climb but I've never had the chance.

I do have a slight fear of heights (but who doesn't?). Well I'd say fear is a strong word, but I do get that flutter!

How was your first rock climbing sessions? How did you find it?

Thanks!


hugepedro


Aug 26, 2011, 12:16 AM
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hafcly wrote:
I'm 19 and currently at university, as a kid I was good at bushcraft.

I'm calling bull on that, kid. No dude is good at bushcraft until at least 25, and even that is questionable.

Lots of climbers have a fear of heights. And I still feel that flutter sometimes with big exposure, it's natural.

If you go with someone competent they will give you confidence in the safety system. When I take someone that is brand new I have them climb 10-15 feet then tell them to sit back on the rope. Once they realize that the rope is going to hold them they usually have a blast the rest of the day.


Rock-Monkey


Aug 26, 2011, 5:40 AM
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Like the last poster everyone has a slight fear... fear might be a strong word for it as a slight uneasiness to falling... I am also just starting out with rock climbing and i am finding that bouldering is really helping me get not only my wits about rock climbing but it is giving me a lot of technical experience and muscle memory.

I have learned over the past few weeks that i am a very upper body aggressive climber and that i have to be very conscious of my feet, that is, to actually use my legs and my feet to help me climb. Bouldering has definitely helped me know where my strong and weak points are and what i need to work on.


rescueman


Aug 26, 2011, 8:14 AM
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Ignore huge(ego)pedro - he calls "bull" on everything he can't understand.

I, too, thought I had a fear of heights when I started climbing. Then I realized that I really had a fear of falling - the heights were exhilarating. So I learned to trad climb and spent the next 20 years not falling.


hugepedro


Aug 26, 2011, 9:43 AM
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rescueman wrote:
Ignore huge(ego)pedro - he calls "bull" on everything he can't understand.

Hahaha, not a bad retort there rescuedude. Actually made me chuckle.


rescueman


Aug 26, 2011, 9:49 AM
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hugepedro wrote:
Hahaha, not a bad retort there rescuedude. Actually made me chuckle.

Glad I could help keep you on the light side.

And I like "rescuedude". Maybe I'll change my moniker.


hugepedro


Aug 26, 2011, 9:54 AM
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Ok but I'm still going to call you 9knAtTheBelay when I feel like pissing you off. Heh heh.


rescueman


Aug 26, 2011, 10:18 AM
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hugepedro wrote:
Ok but I'm still going to call you 9knAtTheBelay when I feel like pissing you off. Heh heh.

Maybe you can calculate for me the belay force required to lift me off my feet at a top rope site and fly me 10' horizontally toward the rock?

That was one of my early experiences in top rope belaying and gave me an appreciation of the potential forces involved (and the danger of not being tied in).


hugepedro


Aug 26, 2011, 11:45 AM
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rescueman wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Ok but I'm still going to call you 9knAtTheBelay when I feel like pissing you off. Heh heh.

Maybe you can calculate for me the belay force required to lift me off my feet at a top rope site and fly me 10' horizontally toward the rock?

That was one of my early experiences in top rope belaying and gave me an appreciation of the potential forces involved (and the danger of not being tied in).

That depends how fat or tiny you are. But it also means you were just a bad belayer back then. No excuse other than belayer incompetence for getting flung around like that on a top-rope belay.


rescueman


Aug 26, 2011, 12:09 PM
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hugepedro wrote:
No excuse other than belayer incompetence for getting flung around like that on a top-rope belay.

I suppose there was no excuse other than climber incompetence when Lynn Hill fell 75' early in her career as the world's best climber.


hugepedro


Aug 26, 2011, 12:30 PM
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rescueman wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
No excuse other than belayer incompetence for getting flung around like that on a top-rope belay.

I suppose there was no excuse other than climber incompetence when Lynn Hill fell 75' early in her career as the world's best climber.

I'd agree. Ability and competence are not the same. KSA's, man, KSA's! She didn't have the right habits, namely a rigorous thought process that one excercises pre-climb, every time, no exceptions. I guaranDANGtee you she does now. I've never made that stupid mistake because I've had a rigorous process I follow, every time.

If you had a proper and rigorous pre-belay thought process, you wouldn't have been in a position to get flung around like that.

I always have a plan, and I make sure my belayer and I are on the same page, before I leave the deck. But one time I changed my plan mid climb, and I ended up almost being lowered off the end of the rope as a result. Thankfully my belayer caught the last 2 feet of the rope before it pulled through his device while I was still 40 feet off the deck. That was a mistake. And it wasn't just a random error or oversite, it was incompetence.

I've never made that mistake again. Not just the mistake of almost getting dropped, because the root cause mistake wasn't about considering length of route vs. length of rope, it was changing the plan mid-route and not stopping to fully consider the ramifications and discuss the change with my partner. I now have a rigorous process I follow if I ever change the plan. That error will never be made again by me, I am more competent now.


mitchy


Aug 26, 2011, 12:34 PM
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i'm pretty damn good at BUSH craft myself....


rescueman


Aug 26, 2011, 12:40 PM
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hugepedro wrote:
Ability and competence are not the same.

I've never made that stupid mistake because I've had a rigorous process I follow, every time.

And competence does not rule out error. Many highly competent people have been injured or died as a result of a single moment of inattention or a brainstem-driven response that over-rode their frontal lobe.

And planning in no way obviates the possibility of error. "The best laid plans of mice and men..."

I'm glad to know, however, that you are perfect and have a system to avoid any possible oversight or error. Perhaps you should start a program to teach that skill to others.


(This post was edited by rescueman on Aug 26, 2011, 12:41 PM)


hugepedro


Aug 26, 2011, 1:35 PM
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rescueman wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Ability and competence are not the same.

I've never made that stupid mistake because I've had a rigorous process I follow, every time.

And competence does not rule out error. Many highly competent people have been injured or died as a result of a single moment of inattention or a brainstem-driven response that over-rode their frontal lobe.

And planning in no way obviates the possibility of error. "The best laid plans of mice and men..."

I'm glad to know, however, that you are perfect and have a system to avoid any possible oversight or error. Perhaps you should start a program to teach that skill to others.

I think you have a different definition of competence. I think you think experience, ability, and/or qualifications are the same as competence. They are not. Competence has an element of execution and consistency.

Errors happen, but if you make an error because you failed to follow an appropriate protocol, then that was incompetence. Lynn’s mistake, and yours, were subjective hazards. They were well within both of your control to eliminate, not by merely remembering to do what you should do (because that leaves you open to error), but by following a rigorous process that would cause you to consider all the angles of the situation and determine what you should do. Just like my mistake of failing to properly adjust my plan was well within my control. We all 3 failed to follow a process that would have compelled us to recognize and eliminate our errors.

Competence is the ability to execute a prescribed process or action, every time, flawlessly. Whether an individual or an organization, the entity that fails to execute a process to the correct standard every time is less competent then the entity that executes flawlessly every time.

When a pilot fails to execute a pre-flight checklist, and as a result crashes on takeoff because he didn’t extend the slats, that’s not a random error. The process is prescribed; he failed to follow it; that is incompetence.

The failure of our intelligence agencies, political leaders, and military to recognize and appropriately respond to the threat and attack on 9/11 was not due to errors. It was organizational incompetence. They had no processes in place to address that threat. They do now.

As a safety guy you should know this. The reason we prescribe protocols and processes in life-critical situations is specifically to eliminate any errors that can be foreseen and possibly eliminated. A big part of being a safe and competent climber is devising these pre-flight checklists, and executing them, every time.

I'm not perfect, but I'm teaching you right now. You should try to learn something from this. ;)


mitchy


Aug 26, 2011, 1:56 PM
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huge pedero, how in the hell did you almost get lowerd off the end of your rope. Only 2 feet of rope left, and your belayer just realised at the LAST moment. Shit son, gotta be more careful.


hugepedro


Aug 26, 2011, 2:22 PM
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mitchy wrote:
huge pedero, how in the hell did you almost get lowerd off the end of your rope. Only 2 feet of rope left, and your belayer just realised at the LAST moment. Shit son, gotta be more careful.

I knew the route was longer than a half rope length, so the plan was I would build an anchor before the half rope point then lower, and the rest of the peeps could top-rope it. Well I got to that point and didn't really like the looks of the possible placements, so I decided I would climb to the anchors and then have my belayer tie another rope on that I would pull up and rig as 2 rope top-rope. Well somewhere between changing my plan and getting to the anchors I forgot to tell my belayer about the extra rope part, and forgot about it myself, so I clipped the anchor and started lowering.

Yeah, not good, but never again, due to the process I now follow every time I change a plan.


rescueman


Aug 26, 2011, 2:47 PM
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hugepedro wrote:
I think you have a different definition of competence. I think you think experience, ability, and/or qualifications are the same as competence. They are not. Competence has an element of execution and consistency.

Yes, competence has an element of consistent execution - but is not defined by 100% consistency.

In reply to:
Errors happen, but if you make an error because you failed to follow an appropriate protocol, then that was incompetence.
Not necessarily. Human beings are fallible creatures, not robots.

In reply to:
Competence is the ability to execute a prescribed process or action, every time, flawlessly.
That is the definition of perfection, not competence. No one expects even the most competent in their field to be flawless 100% of the time.

In reply to:
The failure of our intelligence agencies, political leaders, and military to recognize and appropriately respond to the threat and attack on 9/11 was not due to errors. It was organizational incompetence.
Not incompetence when the FBI was ordered to back off their pre-9/11 investigations by the CIA. Not incompetence when Cheney was orchestrating several simultaneous military exercises on 9/11, including ones involving the hijacking of civilian aircraft and the crashing of them into government buildings and also involved the injection of false radar blips which confused the FAA and resulted in a faltering response. And not incompetence in the expertly executed controlled demolition of three WTC buildings, including Building 7 which was not struck by aircraft and had only smoldering office furniture fires.

[Anyone interested in a free DVD from Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth about the collapse of Building 7 and the complete fabrication represented by the official NIST report, PM me your name and address.]

In reply to:
As a safety guy you should know this. The reason we prescribe protocols and processes in life-critical situations is specifically to eliminate any errors that can be foreseen and possibly eliminated.

The operative words are "can be foreseen" and "possibly eliminated". As an emergency planner, I understand that it's impossible to mitigate all risks. Everyone makes mistakes regardless of their competence, and every technology fails regardless of its design.

There are only two inviolable laws of the Universe:

1) the 2nd law of thermodynamics
2) Murphy


hugepedro


Aug 26, 2011, 2:52 PM
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Oh God, I should have known better than to mention 9/11. You're a truther kook. I'll say 1 thing on the subject. Only dummies that lack common sense and a high school level understanding of physics think those buildings were demo'd.


hugepedro


Aug 26, 2011, 3:09 PM
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Nope, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of competence. You still think it is ability or experience or something. 100% execution is 100% competence. Anything less is not 100% competence.

Ever since I implemented my processes I have exectuted them flawlessly. I've been 100% competent. If I ever fail to execute 1 of them perfectly then I will be less than 100% competent.

The failure to have a process where one is possible is incompetence. The failure to execute a process were one exists is incompetence.

In situations of high criticality we design processes upon processes. The execution process that does the work. A monitoring process that checks the work at defined control points. A governance process that responds to process measurements and addresses anomalies. And so on.

If you've allowed room for errors in a critical process that could otherwise be addressed, then you don't have an 100% competent process. Yeah, shit happens sometimes, but when shit happens because a process allows it to, that is not a random event nor an act of God, it is incompetence.

I'm sure you're a fine rescue rigger and teacher, but you ain't no safety expert if you don't understand this. You should check your ego and learn something, cuz I don't normally give this shit away for free.


rescueman


Aug 26, 2011, 3:18 PM
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hugepedro wrote:
Only dummies that lack common sense and a high school level understanding of physics think those buildings were demo'd.

Thanks. It seems I'm in good company:

Steven Earl Jones, PhD physicist, who co-published a peer-reviewed paper on the nano-thermite residue in the WTC dust

Bill Christison, former senior official of the CIA, a National Intelligence Officer and the Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis

Van Romero, Vice President for Research and Economic Development at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology

Paul Craig Roberts, PhD, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration, former editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal, Business Week, and Scripps Howard News Service

Joel S. Hirschhorn, Ph.D., a Senior Staff Member of the Congressional Office of Technology Assessment

Lynn Margulis, Ph.D., member of the National Academy of Sciences and world renowned scientist

James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of NIST's Fire Science Division

J. Marx Ayres, former member of the National Institute of Sciences Building Safety Council

Michael Ruppert, former LAPD narcotics detective who uncovered the CIA connection to the crack cocaine coming into LA

David Ray Griffin, professor emeritus of Theology and publisher of eight books on 9/11

Rep. Curt Weldon, Ten-term Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania, House Armed Services Committee Vice Chairman. Homeland Security Committee Vice Chairman.

Senator Max Cleland, former member of the 9/11 Commission, U.S. Senator from Georgia. Administrator of U.S. Veterans Administration, qwarded Silver Star and Bronze Star for U.S. Army bravery in Viet Nam.

Louis Freeh, Director of FBI, 1993-2001, former U.S. District Court Judge for Southern District of New York (appointed by President George H.W. Bush), former Deputy United States Attorney in New York, former FBI agent, former officer in United States Army

Edward L. Peck – Deputy Director of the White House Task Force on Terrorism under Ronald Reagan, former Deputy Coordinator, Covert Intelligence Programs at the State Department. U.S. Ambassador and Chief of Mission to Iraq (1977-80), 32-year veteran of the Foreign Service

Morgan Reynolds, PhD, Chief Economist, Department of Labor under George W. Bush 2001-2002, former Director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis

Catherine Austin Fitts, Assistant Secretary of Housing under George H.W. Bush, former Managing Director of Wall Street investment bank, Dillon, Read & Co.

Morton Goulder, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence and Warning under Presidents Nixon, Ford, and Carter (1973-77).

General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret),– Commanding General of Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), 1981 – 1984, former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence, 32-year Army career.
Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter, Air Force fighter pilot, over 100 combat missions, PhD in Aeronautics, Nuclear Engineering

Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret), former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority, 34-year Air Force career

Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during Reagan Administration, highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart).

Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army (ret), former Military Intelligence Officer, Defense Intelligence Agency, member of Able Danger effort to target Al Qaeda’s global structure, former Chief of the Army’s HUMINT [Human Intelligence] program, awarded the Bronze Star for bravery for the first of his two combat tours to Afghanistan, 23-year military intelligence career.

Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret),–former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, Staff Member, Office of Director of the National Security Agency, 20-year Air Force veteran

Major Scott Ritter, U.S. Marine Corps, former Marine Corps Intelligence Officer and Chief Weapons Inspector for the United Nations Special Commission in Iraq 1991-1998

220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
1,500+ Engineers and Architects
250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
400+ Professors
300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals
400+ Medical Professionals


rescueman


Aug 26, 2011, 3:23 PM
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hugepedro wrote:
100% execution is 100% competence. Anything less is not 100% competence.

You're confusing a trait with a perfect trait.

It's clear to me that you're an asshole. But I would never call you a 100% asshole. After all, you're only human and sometimes slip up and act nice.

And, with all the processes necessary in order to keep you safe at the crag, I hope you're bringing your process servers along with you.


TarHeelEMT


Aug 26, 2011, 3:34 PM
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What is this, Supertopo?


hugepedro


Aug 26, 2011, 3:47 PM
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rescueman wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
100% execution is 100% competence. Anything less is not 100% competence.

You're confusing a trait with a perfect trait.

It's clear to me that you're an asshole. But I would never call you a 100% asshole. After all, you're only human and sometimes slip up and act nice.

And, with all the processes necessary in order to keep you safe at the crag, I hope you're bringing your process servers along with you.

You still don't get it. It's not about traits at all, it's about performance.


aprice00


Aug 26, 2011, 4:01 PM
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rescueman wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Only dummies that lack common sense and a high school level understanding of physics think those buildings were demo'd.

Thanks. It seems I'm in good company:

Steven Earl Jones, PhD physicist, who co-published a peer-reviewed paper on the nano-thermite residue in the WTC dust

Bill Christison, former senior official of the CIA, a National Intelligence Officer and the Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis

Van Romero, Vice President for Research and Economic Development at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology

Paul Craig Roberts, PhD, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration, former editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal, Business Week, and Scripps Howard News Service

Joel S. Hirschhorn, Ph.D., a Senior Staff Member of the Congressional Office of Technology Assessment

Lynn Margulis, Ph.D., member of the National Academy of Sciences and world renowned scientist

James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of NIST's Fire Science Division

J. Marx Ayres, former member of the National Institute of Sciences Building Safety Council

Michael Ruppert, former LAPD narcotics detective who uncovered the CIA connection to the crack cocaine coming into LA

David Ray Griffin, professor emeritus of Theology and publisher of eight books on 9/11

Rep. Curt Weldon, Ten-term Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania, House Armed Services Committee Vice Chairman. Homeland Security Committee Vice Chairman.

Senator Max Cleland, former member of the 9/11 Commission, U.S. Senator from Georgia. Administrator of U.S. Veterans Administration, qwarded Silver Star and Bronze Star for U.S. Army bravery in Viet Nam.

Louis Freeh, Director of FBI, 1993-2001, former U.S. District Court Judge for Southern District of New York (appointed by President George H.W. Bush), former Deputy United States Attorney in New York, former FBI agent, former officer in United States Army

Edward L. Peck – Deputy Director of the White House Task Force on Terrorism under Ronald Reagan, former Deputy Coordinator, Covert Intelligence Programs at the State Department. U.S. Ambassador and Chief of Mission to Iraq (1977-80), 32-year veteran of the Foreign Service

Morgan Reynolds, PhD, Chief Economist, Department of Labor under George W. Bush 2001-2002, former Director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis

Catherine Austin Fitts, Assistant Secretary of Housing under George H.W. Bush, former Managing Director of Wall Street investment bank, Dillon, Read & Co.

Morton Goulder, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence and Warning under Presidents Nixon, Ford, and Carter (1973-77).

General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret),– Commanding General of Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), 1981 – 1984, former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence, 32-year Army career.
Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter, Air Force fighter pilot, over 100 combat missions, PhD in Aeronautics, Nuclear Engineering

Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret), former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority, 34-year Air Force career

Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during Reagan Administration, highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart).

Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army (ret), former Military Intelligence Officer, Defense Intelligence Agency, member of Able Danger effort to target Al Qaeda’s global structure, former Chief of the Army’s HUMINT [Human Intelligence] program, awarded the Bronze Star for bravery for the first of his two combat tours to Afghanistan, 23-year military intelligence career.

Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret),–former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, Staff Member, Office of Director of the National Security Agency, 20-year Air Force veteran

Major Scott Ritter, U.S. Marine Corps, former Marine Corps Intelligence Officer and Chief Weapons Inspector for the United Nations Special Commission in Iraq 1991-1998

220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
1,500+ Engineers and Architects
250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
400+ Professors
300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
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Ohhh man that was a bad call now "They" know your on to them. Probably should have left your name off your profile Unsure If my tax dollars bought you a smart phone you should probably turn off the GPS untill the dust settles.


climbingtrash


Sep 9, 2011, 7:58 PM
Post #25 of 28 (4122 views)
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Registered: Jan 19, 2006
Posts: 4822

Re: [mitchy] Just starting [In reply to]
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mitchy wrote:
i'm pretty damn good at BUSH craft myself....

yore mom tell you that?

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